Best 2 Stroke Oil?

[Hermio]

I understand that is your belief, but I must say especially when 2-stroke oils are being judged that you absolutely have to get as close to the exact conditions as possible for any test to be reasonably valid.. 2 stroke oils are present in combustion, some burn effectively in the combustion chamber and some do not, there are by-products of that burning which may change the properties of the remaining oil, some fall out of suspension in the A/F mixture better and more effectively coat the bottom-end of the engine and so on. Due to all of these variables often you'll find that what you expect will happen in such a complicated system are going to be far different from a simple low-temp abrasion test using that oil.
As was said earlier there's a lot more to it than that.

Most of the testing I referred to was actually on 4-stroke oils. Most of my discussion on 2-stroke oils was whether it was possible to get good lubrication at high ratios, say 100 to 1. I opined that the narrow molecular weight distribution in full synthetic oils would make it possible to use a lower oil content than in the past where the wide MW distribution of petroleum oils resulted in the more volatile fractions to burn off quickly, leaving less oil for lubrication. I also pointed out that as long as there is enough oil with sufficient film strength to coat the parts and prevent metal-to-metal contact, more oil would not improve lubrication and just increase smoke in the exhaust. I did not pretend to know what that ratio might be for any particular oil. I made a decision for now to keep with 50:1 even though some people have used Amsoil Saber at 100:1 for years with no problems. To me, the oil is too cheap for me to potentially risk my MS500i. But I have no plans to use 25 or 32:1, as some have suggested. 50:1 has a pretty long track record of being successful.
But, to your point, if someone could test the residual oil from a 2-cycle engine on the Timken apparatus, I think that would be interesting and meaningful. I don't know how we would get that oil. In any case, the original purpose of this thread will never be fulfilled, as there is no way everyone will agree on which oil is the best. I don't claim to know. But I am content to use the Amsoil saber because they claim in writing that theirs meets JASO FD and because I have had outstanding results in over 2 million miles of using their 4-cycle oils in my cars and diesel trucks as well as my tractors, with no evidence of any oil problems. Generally I get at least 250,00 miles out of my vehicles, and I get rid of them for reasons other than wear on the engine. Notable exceptions were my 1995 Chevy Suburban which had the olds small block engine re-configured as a diesel and the infamous Ford 6.0 liter diesel. Both of these were really bad engines, prone to heads cracking and gaskets failing, as well as problems with the turbocharger, charge pump and fuel injectors. I did not keep those vehicles fore 250K miles! So far my F-350 with the 6.7 liter engine seems pretty good. I run the Amsoil diesel 5W-30 in it.

 

[Hermio]

Of course it's possible under boundary conditions, but them your measuring additive treat rates and not the base oil.
And no, it does not mean that viscosity isn't basicly the same thing as film strength.

Viscosity is not film strength. If it were, it would have the same units. I am not being rude here, but you are completely, absolutely wrong on that. Pascals do not equal pascal-seconds. It is as bad a mistake as equating distance to speed.

 

[Hermio]

Hopes and dreams won't make a 4 ball test approximate a motor... that's why the test, the real ASTM one is typicly used for motor oils. Let alone some homebrewed test in a guys garage to garmer youtube views.

Why do you keep denigrating a test done on a garage with the same equipment ASTM uses? This seems like an emotional view on your part, not one rooted in sound engineering. And I am still waiting to hear your academic background and job description. I am beginning to think you are nervous about revealing it.

 

[Hermio]

No, they are not that complicated, so why can't you understand how the work?
Yea, and to be clear I am saying you have about zero knowledge of damn near everything you comment on.

I know you believe that. But my suspicion is that you have only practical knowledge, not an engineering level knowledge. That may be why you do not get that I am knowledgeable about what I choose to post. It may also be why you keep repeating the fallacy that viscosity equates to film strength. Still, I came here both to learn and to teach. That is what this forum is for. But what is your purpose? It sems to me your purpose is to denigrate, not to enlighten.

 

[Brushwacker]

Rather, the opposite is true. High engine temperatures allow for greater engine efficiency and lower HC emissions at the expense of durability and increased NOX emissions.

When I used to ride motorcycles, they obviously felt much stronger when you first started them and were cool. I liked doing wheelies as I shifted gears and pretty near always, 2 and 4 stroke, street and dirt bikes it would bring the front end all up a gear higher when cool on first take off . And as a matter of fact felt dogged down the hotter they got .

 

[Hermio]

This guy gets it.

Do you see a difference about how he posts versus how you post? I can have a rational and polite discussion with him. Why don't you try that for a change?

 

[montana59]

Well you just use what has worked for each and everyone of us and keep getting up on it.

 

[Hermio]

When I used to ride motorcycles, they obviously felt much stronger when you first started them and were cool. I liked doing wheelies as I shifted gears and pretty near always, 2 and 4 stroke, street and dirt bikes it would bring the front end all up a gear higher when cool on first take off . And as a matter of fact felt dogged down the hotter they got .

I am making a distinction between high engine temperatures and high exhaust temperatures. High engine temperatures will improve combustion efficiency. But if the exhaust temperature is high, that indicates lower efficiency overall, as the energy converted into mechanical energy must be taken from the hot gasses, lowering their temperature. Your experience might be because when the engine is cold, the air/fuel mixture would also be colder, and thus have a higher density, meaning more fuel per stroke. I am just speculating, but that might be the reason.

 

[bwalker]

I know you believe that. But my suspicion is that you have only practical knowledge, not an engineering level knowledge. That may be why you do not get that I am knowledgeable about what I choose to post. It may also be why you keep repeating the fallacy that viscosity equates to film strength. Still, I came here both to learn and to teach. That is what this forum is for. But what is your purpose? It sems to me your purpose is to denigrate, not to enlighten.

I have some engineering knowledge by having worked in R and D in the automotive industry and other forms of highly technical heavy industry. Mining/mineral processing, power generation and oil refining.
With all that said I don't need to use any of that knowledge to come to the conclusion that you can't apply theory to practice and not even a little bit.

 

[sean donato]

Right, it'll all work for this engine. I'm also one of the "clean cheap oil is better than dirty expensive oil" folks. Change it often! I'll be looking for bulk oil deals, and oil filters by the case. Wouldn't be averse to a 55 gallon drum.

Wish I could get some use out of the used oil, vs. taking it to the oil recycling place at the dump. They just burn it in the waste oil heater at the county shop, but I don't generate enough oil or need to heat my shop enough to make a waste oil heater make sense.

I'm a cheap arse too. But when I had access to free fluid analysis testing, I tested my oil every 1k miles or 100 hrs. We had a cheap Dino 15w 40 we got at cost from the shop, it never made it much past 6k before they would reccomend changing the oil before the next test. (In a nut shell the acidity levels would get too high. Everything else always seemed fine with it.) Switched to the rotella t6 5w40 and I was able to go 10k miles before the tbn levels got out of whack. At the time my wife was in collage (other side of the state) and I was hauling heavy for work and personal use nearly daily. I was putting tons of miles on the truck and I wanted oil I could get the longest life out of. I still change the filter at 5k miles with the rotella. Being able to nearly double the miles with 30% increase of cost was worth a lot back then. Haven't bothered to check and see if I'm ahead now or not with what oil prices have jumped up to.

How about for the lower rod and crank side case bearings?

The test doesn't have fuel dilution ie not valid for a 2 stroke.

Looks like 100LL avgas(only akylate fuel I was able to find info on quickly) is ~116k btu's per gallon, and regular unleaded pump gas is ~120k btu's per gallon, 3.4% difference. I doubt that's enough leaning out to burn down an engine unless it was tuned dangerously close to the edge already, but it's definitely enough to require a retune.

Tune for what you're running, then it doesn't matter. Universal rule, tune for what you're running.

Yep. 100%.

 

[Hermio]

I have some engineering knowledge by having worked in R and D in the automotive industry and other forms of highly technical heavy industry. Mining/mineral processing, power generation and oil refining.
With all that said I don't need to use any of that knowledge to come to the conclusion that you can't apply theory to practice and not even a little bit.

Bizarre point of view! The entire profession of engineering is about applying theory to practice. If that did not work, nothing would be built.

 

[Hermio]

It was pointed out why your molecular theory was off base. It was also pointed out with a reference source why your ratio comment was off base.
And Amsoil does not claim to be Jaso certified and indeed they are not. Saber likely wouldn't pass the FD tests....
You are like a broken record.

Amsoil put it to me in writing that they meet FD specifications. And it is mentioned in their literature.

 

[Hermio]

No, they are not that complicated, so why can't you understand how the work?
Yea, and to be clear I am saying you have about zero knowledge of damn near everything you comment on.

Do you realize we have not actually discussed how any engine works on this forum? All we talked about was lubrication and testing. Therefore, you have no basis whatsoever to ascertain what I know or do not know about how engines work.

 

[Hermio]

My

It was pointed out why your molecular theory was off base. It was also pointed out with a reference source why your ratio comment was off base.
And Amsoil does not claim to be Jaso certified and indeed they are not. Saber likely wouldn't pass the FD tests....
You are like a broken record.

MW distribution comments were correct. Synthetic oils have an almost perfectly uniform molecular weight, which is directly tied to volatility. The MW distribution of petroleum oils depends on how many theoretical trays they have in their fractionation column, but it will never be as uniform as base oils produced synthetically.

 

[Hermio]

I have some engineering knowledge by having worked in R and D in the automotive industry and other forms of highly technical heavy industry. Mining/mineral processing, power generation and oil refining.
With all that said I don't need to use any of that knowledge to come to the conclusion that you can't apply theory to practice and not even a little bit.

It is as I thought. You do not have the necessary academic background to understand fluid flow, thermodynamics, fractionation, viscosity, film strength or the scientific method in general. But I will give you a brief tutorial on what viscosity is. It is the ratio of shear stress in a fluid to the velocity gradient in that fluid. Film strength, on the other hand, is the maximum compressive stress a fluid can take before the film breaks down.

 

[OM617YOTA]

I'm a cheap arse too. But when I had access to free fluid analysis testing, I tested my oil every 1k miles or 100 hrs. We had a cheap Dino 15w 40 we got at cost from the shop, it never made it much past 6k before they would reccomend changing the oil before the next test. (In a nut shell the acidity levels would get too high. Everything else always seemed fine with it.) Switched to the rotella t6 5w40 and I was able to go 10k miles before the tbn levels got out of whack. At the time my wife was in collage (other side of the state) and I was hauling heavy for work and personal use nearly daily. I was putting tons of miles on the truck and I wanted oil I could get the longest life out of. I still change the filter at 5k miles with the rotella. Being able to nearly double the miles with 30% increase of cost was worth a lot back then. Haven't bothered to check and see if I'm ahead now or not with what oil prices have jumped up to.

I'll do some testing, but with IDI diesels, the biggest issue is soot loading the oil. Unless I want to add a very serious bypass filter(and I might), soot loading will be what dictates OCI, and will be the same no matter the oil.

Rotella T6 is on sale, I'll stock up next time I'm in town.

 

[North by Northwest]

That's not been my experience with red armor personally or with the equipment I maintain that's used professionally. I've never seen any carbon build up in the muffler and extremely little to non on the piston. It exhibits about the best cling I've ever seen inside an engine, even one that's been sitting for a long time.

While we usually refer to something electric powered as a motor, technically either engine or motor can be applied to an internal combustion engine.

You can run about whatever 5w40 to 15w40 in that engine. Years ago I switched over to rotella t6 and have been running it about ever since. During covid I ran dello since I couldn't get rotella. Didn't pull any samples (not free anymore.) But I'm sure it's just as good as the rotella.

Have run Rotella T6 in my Cummin's bypass oil filter system for numerous yrs . Also Amsoil Severe Service Diesel both oil samples tested the same . Both oils supported 10+k oil changes easily via the oil sample testing .

 

[lone wolf]

Have run Rotella T6 in my Cummin's for numerous yrs . Also Amsoil Severe Service Diesel both oil samples tested the same . Both oils supported 10 k oil changes easily via the oil sample testing .

Is that truck pulling a lot of weight of just cruising? My trucks are always pulling lots of weight, do you think 200 hrs is about right for change that has been schedule for years.? What about transmission oil changes?

 

[North by Northwest]

Winter plow truck usage , wood hauler along with numerous seasonal 300 mile highway trips to hunting & fishing camps hauling sleds & sidebys Wolfy . 250 hr is what i recall prior to 2007 model yr Cummins . 300 hrs afterwards . I have a 5 speed manual , which i change synthetic transmission oil every 5 yrs .

 

[bwalker]

It is as I thought. You do not have the necessary academic background to understand fluid flow, thermodynamics, fractionation, viscosity, film strength or the scientific method in general. But I will give you a brief tutorial on what viscosity is. It is the ratio of shear stress in a fluid to the velocity gradient in that fluid. Film strength, on the other hand, is the maximum compressive stress a fluid can take before the film breaks down.

As I have said ten other times in hydrodynamic lubrication film strength is basically the same thing as viscosity.

You do realise I work with fractonation every single day?
I have probably forgot more than you know is it pertains to petroleum refining, lubricants, etc.