Best 2 Stroke Oil?

[sean donato]

Possibly invalid for what he was trying to prove. But my point is that he ended up with a less efficient operating condition. That is a thermodynamic fact.

All it proved was his engine wasn't running with the proper air fuel ratio. Nothing else.

 

[Hermio]

I've watched several of his videos completely and come away with the same conclusions. He does not do real world testing. None of his engine oil tests pertain to real life use. 450* is an unrealistic oil operating temp. Again, proves nothing useful.

I believe SAE actually tests at an even higher temperature to check volatility and oil thickening. The point of the test is to see how much oil is lost to evaporation and how much the viscosity increases. So Todd's test does exactly that. It might not match the SAE tests exactly but it will give the same ranking among oils. Ergo, it is a valid test.

 

[bwalker]

I have already pointed out your errors several times, but you have not admitted it. Examples: you have denied that I am an engineer. You have denied that Amsoil Saber is FD rated, though they have self-certified. You have claimed that viscosity = film strength, which it does not for any liquid. They are two different phenomena. You have denied that the 4-ball test ranks film strength for oil, when the testing sites clearly say it does. You have denied that there are other scientifically valid ways to measure film strength, such as the very reproducible apparatus Project Farm uses. You also do not understand the use of statistical data sampling. If there is a strong and well-known cause and effect relationship between phenomena, then statistical analysis is not needed. For example, if you were to drop a 10-lb weight on your bare feet from a height of 5 feet,, would you need to repeat it multiple times to figure out what would happen to your feet? I think once would be enough! In my career, I did test work and scale-up for a number of industrial processes. For most, the causal relationships were well-known enough that I could do just 1 or 2 tests in the small scale, and then scale-them up from the small-scale data. I had a 100% success rate doing this. I also worked on fluid rheology, as many fluids I dealt with were non-Newtonian, unlike oil, which is Newtonian. Many of my fluids were well characterized by the Herschel-Bulkley model, which is shear thinning with a yield stress. Grease would fall into that category. For more complex systems, such as mass transfer in a gas-liquid contacting system, there could be 2 or 3 independent variables and one dependent variable, For those, I typically would design an experimental protocol for my customer, and they would conduct an array of experiments over a range of conditions, typically producing hundreds of data points. I would then perform a multivariable regression analysis to come up with a predictive correlation I could use for design. And then, of course, I would do the design. I have no idea how to PM you, and I am not so sure I can trust you not to be a crazy person who might show up on my doorstep. That is why I post under a pseudonym.

Well, once again you are wrong on all counts. When I have some slack time I will refute them.
But for starters. Amsoil Saber is certainly not JASO FD certified. And it's high likely it would not pass the certification tests. I'll go more into that too.

 

[bwalker]

He noticed higher running temperature with an infrared temp gun. He did not check egts, he didn't even bother to tune for the fuel used. Ie, invalid test.

Infrared guns are highly inaccurate. Even the high end Fluke made ones.

 

[bwalker]

I've watched several of his videos completely and come away with the same conclusions. He does not do real world testing. None of his engine oil tests pertain to real life use. 450* is an unrealistic oil operating temp. Again, proves nothing useful.

Exactly, yet you have a guy that's lucky if he can change a spark plug arguing with you. Because he is an engineer...allegedly.

 

[Hermio]

Well, once again you are wrong on all counts. When I have some slack time I will refute them.
But for starters. Amsoil Saber is certainly not JASO FD certified. And it's high likely it would not pass the certification tests. I'll go more into that too.

You cannot refute any of them. It is you who are wrong on all counts. Prove I am not an engineer, for example. If this site would not ban me for doing so, I would bet a substantial sum of money on it, as it is quite easy to prove.

 

[bwalker]

You cannot refute any of them. It is you who are wrong on all counts. Prove I am not an engineer, for example. If this site would not ban me for doing so, I would bet a substantial sum of money on it, as it is quite easy to prove.

Its pretty easy to refute Amsoil Saber is not certified as Jaso maintains a list of certified oils. So it is you who is full of it once again.
As for if you are an engineer or not. I honestly don't care. It's just you seem to make stupid mistakes and jump to conclusions which good engineers typically don't do. If I was a published engineer I would probably be proud of that and would have no problem citing said publications.

 

[bwalker]

I believe SAE actually tests at an even higher temperature to check volatility and oil thickening. The point of the test is to see how much oil is lost to evaporation and how much the viscosity increases. So Todd's test does exactly that. It might not match the SAE tests exactly but it will give the same ranking among oils. Ergo, it is a valid test.

There is an industry test for volatility called the NOACK Volatility Test. Most reputable companies give you the numbers for this test in their product data sheets.
Given this why would PF do some half azzed test in his garage when the numbers are listed in the product data sheets using industry standard test methods? I'll tell you why. Because the ******* that surf YoubTube lap this garbage up and that makes PF money.

 

[Hermio]

Its pretty easy to refute Amsoil Saber is not certified as Jaso maintains a list of certified oils. So it is you who is full of it once again.
As for if you are an engineer or not. I honestly don't care. It's just you seem to make stupid mistakes and jump to conclusions which good engineers typically don't do. If I was a published engineer I would probably be proud of that and would have no problem citing said publications.

I said Amsoil Saber met the JASO FD standards. They did not use an outside agency, so they may not be listed. I have no problem citing my papers on a reputable site. In fact, most of them are listed on my website. But I don't know you or others on this forum. You come across as arrogant and belligerent, so I do not trust you to behave in a sane manner. You also do not have a strong technical grasp of such things as fluid flow, film strength, analog testing, when statistical data are needed or basic thermodynamics, so nothing I say will dissuade you from your errors. But if you insist on seeing my publications, below is a partial list with name and publisher removed.
“Design and Scale-up of Agitators for Gas Dispersion in Fermentors”,

“Improved Starch Reactor Design

“Computational Fluid Mixing for Corn Wet Milling Applications”,

“Mixing in Industrial Fermenters

“A Comparative Study of Alternative Gas Dispersion Impellers

“ Proper Impeller Systems Insure Mixing Performance

“Enhancement of Fermentation with Effective Impeller Systems

“Optimize Power Consumption in Aerobic Fermenters

“Impeller Selection for Agitated Aerobic Fermenters

“Team Up with a Consultant for Equipment Selection

“The G-Value for Agitator Design: Time to Retire It

“Selecting Agitator Seals for Bioprocessing Applications”,

“Piloting Bioreactors for Agitation Scale-Up

“Agitation Challenges in Cellulosic Ethanol Production”,

“Sourcing Equipment in Developing Countries while Minimizing Risk

“Determine the Optimum Number of Process Trains

“Agitation of Fibrous Materials”,

“Reduce Risk When Sourcing Abroad

“Bioreactor Design for Chemical Engineers

“Determining Torque Split for Multiple Impellers in Slurry Mixing

“Cut Agitator Power Costs

“Why Conduct Pilot Studies for Agitated Gas-Liquid Mass Transfer -3

“Designing Multistage Agitated Reactors

“Pumps vs. agitators for tank mixing, classic case of CAPEX vs OPEX: white paper”,

“Computing Dissolved Oxygen Profiles in Aerobic Fermenters

“Large Scale Microbial Production of Advanced Biofuels: How big can we go?”,

“Optimizing Aerobic Fermenter Operation

“Impeller Selection for Lignocellulosic Hydrolysis Reactors

“Hydrofoil Impellers vs. Pitched Blade Turbines in Lignocellulosic Slurries”,

“Advanced Fermentation Agitation with Methanotrophs and Other Organisms”,

“Back to Basics”,

“Optimize Heat Transfer of Viscous Fluids in Agitated Vessels

“Equipment needs to study mixing of fibrous materials”,

“Equipment Requirements to Study Agitation for Gas-Liquid Fermentation”,

“Consider Hydrofoil Impellers for Laminar-Flow Mixing

“Biomass Conversion Agitation”,

“Optimize Aspect Ratio in Industrial Fermenters

Book, “Agitator design for gas-liquid fermenters and bioreactors”,

Book, “Agitator Design Technology for Biofuels and Renewable Chemicals”,

“How to Re-Suspend Settled Solids in an Agitated Tank”,

“Consider Hydrofoil Impellers for Laminar-Flow Mixing

“Biomass Conversion Agitation”, G. Benz, Biofuels Digest, March 9, 2019

“Heat Transfer in Mechanically Agitated Tanks”,

“Advancing Distillers Grains: Two Pathways to Dewatering”

 

[Hermio]

There is an industry test for volatility called the NOACK Volatility Test. Most reputable companies give you the numbers for this test in their product data sheets.
Given this why would PF do some half azzed test in his garage when the numbers are listed in the product data sheets using industry standard test methods? I'll tell you why. Because the ******* that surf YoubTube lap this garbage up and that makes PF money.

Todd's test is not far off from the NOACK test. That test is at 482F; Todd's is at 450F.While the results won't be exactly the same, the ranking will be.

 

[epo]

I said Amsoil Saber met the JASO FD standards. They did not use an outside agency, so they may not be listed.

Getting on the list does not require the use of an "outside agency". All you have to do is pay 40000 yen and fill out the forms correctly.

 

[epo]

The reason they are running high coolant temperatures is indeed to reduce heat loss within the engine, thus increasing efficiency. What I am saying is that there is only so much energy produced by combustion, and the more of that energy is released as heat, the less is available to do mechanical work. Remember, this discussion got started with an observation that a tester on YouTube got a higher EGT with a richer oil mixture, and he also noticed less net power from his saw. That is consistent with thermodynamics.

Reading your posts here I get the impression that the second law of thermodynamics is alien to you, and you certainly haven't read the information on efficiency that I've linked in this thread. I end the matter with quotes from Carnot:

The production of motive power is then due in steam engines not to an actual consumption of caloric, but to its transportation from a warm body to a cold body.
The motive power of heat is independent of the agents employed to realize it; its quantity is fixed solely by the temperatures of the bodies between which is effected, finally, the transfer of caloric.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I came to find the best 2 stroke oil.Stayed for the Jerry Springer.

 

[epo]

I came to find the best 2 stroke oil.Stayed for the Jerry Springer.

You must be new here...

 

[Hermio]

Its pretty easy to refute Amsoil Saber is not certified as Jaso maintains a list of certified oils. So it is you who is full of it once again.
As for if you are an engineer or not. I honestly don't care. It's just you seem to make stupid mistakes and jump to conclusions which good engineers typically don't do. If I was a published engineer I would probably be proud of that and would have no problem citing said publications.

I am sure there are a few oils that are not on the list but meet the standards. I am not the only one that thinks so: https://autosolutionlab.com/jaso-fd-2-stroke-oil-list/ I trust Amsoil when they say they meet FD standards, mainly because of my more than 2 million miles of use of their products in multiple cars and tractors.

 

[Hermio]

Reading your posts here I get the impression that the second law of thermodynamics is alien to you, and you certainly haven't read the information on efficiency that I've linked in this thread. I end the matter with quotes from Carnot:

The production of motive power is then due in steam engines not to an actual consumption of caloric, but to its transportation from a warm body to a cold body.
The motive power of heat is independent of the agents employed to realize it; its quantity is fixed solely by the temperatures of the bodies between which is effected, finally, the transfer of caloric.

Well, what I can say is that I had 3 courses on thermodynamics: Basic Engineering Thermodynamics, Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics and Graduate Level Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics. I got a grade of 4 out of 4 on all of them., That does not make me an expert, but I do understand the 2nd law. It appears you do not. The quote from Carnot actually affirms what I have been saying, though his term "caloric" is archaic. He affirms the idea that a temperature change going from a warm body to a colder body is what creates the motive power. The Carnot cycle, by the way, is not a perfect analogy tto a gasoline engine. But what is relevant is that you cannot take energy out of a system and transfer it to some other use without altering its temperature or pressure or both. In an expanding gas system doing work, the gas temperature will always decrease.

 

[Hermio]

You must be new here...

At least that is amusing.

 

[epo]

Well, what I can say is that I had 3 courses on thermodynamics: Basic Engineering Thermodynamics, Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics and Graduate Level Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics. I got a grade of 4 out of 4 on all of them., That does not make me an expert, but I do understand the 2nd law. It appears you do not. The quote from Carnot actually affirms what I have been saying, though his term "caloric" is archaic. He affirms the idea that a temperature change going from a warm body to a colder body is what creates the motive power. The Carnot cycle, by the way, is not a perfect analogy tto a gasoline engine. But what is relevant is that you cannot take energy out of a system and transfer it to some other use without altering its temperature or pressure or both. In an expanding gas system doing work, the gas temperature will always decrease.

So you still think that the efficiency of an internal combustion engine increases as its temperature decreases at the same ambient temperature?

 

[Hermio]

So you still think that the efficiency of an internal combustion engine increases as its temperature decreases at the same ambient temperature?

Sigh. I am saying that the efficiency increases as the exhaust gas temperature decreases. That has nothing to do with the temperature of the physical engine. I guess I will try to explain it to you one more time. If the exhaust gas temperature were the same as the combustion temperature in the cylinder, there could be no net work done. If there could be, it would be a perpetual motion machine, as somehow the engine could produce power without taking energy out of the combustion gasses.

 

[Hermio]

I came to find the best 2 stroke oil.Stayed for the Jerry Springer.

You didn't really expect an answer to that question, did you? All you will get from this kind of forum is opinions. But I do agree with bwalker on one concept: just buy an FD oil and go with it.