Burn times in various OWB's

[pipe welder]

Modn try reading the post again , I have explained things no less than 3 times. I never said a 200 dollar inside wood stove, I said a 200 dollar inside wood BOILER, and if you must know the brand is deep wood. And I am not whining , I am stating facts, if you don't like the facts or you don't believe them there is nothing that can be said. I state things as they pertain to me not someone else. If you had read all my post I told every one before if you think its the best thing going then more power to you. But know this I will state my opinion as I see it if you chose not to believe me so be it. I think the thing is an over priced under engineered piece of crap. I am tired of fighting with something that should not have been a fight. I ain't asking nobody for nothing, just stating my opinion. Like I said earlier, no use in flogging a dead horse.

 

[modn]

Modn try reading the post again , I have explained things no less than 3 times. I never said a 200 dollar inside wood stove, I said a 200 dollar inside wood BOILER, and if you must know the brand is deep wood. And I am not whining , I am stating facts, if you don't like the facts or you don't believe them there is nothing that can be said. I state things as they pertain to me not someone else. If you had read all my post I told every one before if you think its the best thing going then more power to you. But know this I will state my opinion as I see it if you chose not to believe me so be it. I think the thing is an over priced under engineered piece of crap. I am tired of fighting with something that should not have been a fight. I ain't asking nobody for nothing, just stating my opinion. Like I said earlier, no use in flogging a dead horse.

Your absolutely right, I agree 100%......Sell it!!

 

[KH-1958]

Modn try reading the post again , I have explained things no less than 3 times. I never said a 200 dollar inside wood stove, I said a 200 dollar inside wood BOILER, and if you must know the brand is deep wood. And I am not whining , I am stating facts, if you don't like the facts or you don't believe them there is nothing that can be said. I state things as they pertain to me not someone else. If you had read all my post I told every one before if you think its the best thing going then more power to you. But know this I will state my opinion as I see it if you chose not to believe me so be it. I think the thing is an over priced under engineered piece of crap. I am tired of fighting with something that should not have been a fight. I ain't asking nobody for nothing, just stating my opinion. Like I said earlier, no use in flogging a dead horse.

If it is giving you more trouble than I would get rid of it. SOmetimes you cut your losses and move on.

 

[Slick]

Anyone else notice pipewelder just wants to complain and has dodged a bunch of questions about how the unit is installed...guess it's easier to blame the unit than your own install...
It's not rocket science...if it's burning through that much wood those BTUs are going somewhere...plenty of other woodmaster owners manage to get those btu's to their house as heat...so we know it's not going up the stack, which means what? To me it means there is a huge heat loss somewhere and that's not the units fault....

 

[rx7145]

Anyone else notice pipewelder just wants to complain and has dodged a bunch of questions about how the unit is installed?

I have...

 

[ngzcaz]

Well, here's a question. How many of you have installed metal pipe from the OWB to your residence ? How many have a 164,000 btu propane heater that heats the home ? ( I may have misunderstood, but thats what it sounded like )
and more importantly, who needs that many BTU's ? If he's on the level, I would like to help him out, but as stated this is not rocket science.. the heat is going somewhere.... there was a member expressing interest in his unit.. It would be interesting if he contacts him, looks at it, buys it and then has different results ??

And..........here in NE Pa. temps in the low 30's yesterday and last night, still wood left from last night ( slightly over 12 hrs w/ a mix of 50/50 junk and better stuff ) Warmer today so maybe only two 10 or 12 inchers tonight )
This I can handle ...........

 

[pipe welder]

Man some of these guys got a head like a concrete block. I have answered every question ask of me. NO I did not state how many inches of insulation and I did not state brand of windows. But read my lips here its the same as it was with the other units, nothing else has changed but the BOILER so it becomes a mute point. I also didn't tell you how tall I am or how much I weigh because its not relevant. The house is old ,still the same house, I,m old, still the same me. People get on here and bash this shaver guy all over the board and nobody says a word but I express my distaste for woodmaster and they act like I am desecrating a shrine. Other than a few MINOR difference's they are the same thing. It seems I can't have an opinion if it doesn't agree with theirs. And I ain't dodging anyone's questions if they are relevant to the situation. I didn't ask for any help but I refuse to be belittled for stating my opinion just because it doesn't agree with someone else.

 

[urhstry]

ok, so back to Slick's question.... explain how the unit is installed....

 

[modn]

ok, so back to Slick's question.... explain how the unit is installed....

And I guess I'll bite.....how many gallons of propane did you use per month BEFORE the OWB was installed? Basically how many gallons did you use per season? 164,000 BTU is sizeable. Does the boiler smolder ever or is it burning all the time? Do you have a leak in the door or ash pan (does it have one?) Are your pipes properly insulated? What kind of an exchange is made in the house? Do you have a plate exchanger to connect to your exisiting boiler or is it connected to a plenum for water to air exchange? What modifications did you make to your wood boiler, if any? Is it a natural draft or forced draft? What size square footage is your house? Old or new (what year was it built?)

My take or guess: You have an old house with old windows and poor insulation and it cost you a fortune before to heat with propane. If that is the case you will burn a lot of wood regardless of what boiler you put in.

------OR------

You have a genuine POS.....time to sell.


Answer the questions above and I guarantee someone, or collectively all, will have an answer for you. Nobody wants to see someone unhappy, but you have to quite b*tching, answer questions, follow advice, and report results. There isn't a person on here that isn't willing to help as long as they are trying to help themselves also.

 

[AIM]

I know a guy that put his exchanger in the return side of his forced air thinking that it wouldn't interfere with his AC coil that way. Installed it in the summer and by the time it came to using it he couldn't get enough heat to save his arse.
Ended up the exchanger was all but completely wooled over with dust do to being prior to the filter. He went ahead and switched to the out going side and the thing cranked out the heat as expected.
Sometimes it might just be a crazy little thing like that.

 

[pipe welder]

Ok we will start from scratch here. I like a good spirited discussion as long as we don't draw any blood. First my history, I am a retired pipefitter and professional welder I even have a boiler stamp which means that I am certified to weld on high pressure boiler systems. I was fabrication shop foreman for the last 15 years of my 38 years in the piping and HVAC industry. I don't think they kept me in that position all those years because I don't know anything about pipe, had I not retired I would still have the job. Now on to every thing else, I had to laugh about the metal pipe thing, how does this guy think all these multistory buildings are heated and cooled. A pipe is the conduit for the transmission of fluids whether it be steel,copper,plastic or whatever. Why did I use steel ? I have a pipe machine, dies ,wrenches,pipe vice and every thing I need to do a professional job and I know enough people to get the material for nothing. why the 16400 btu boiler? It's over kill, in 1984 I was working out of town and could only get home on weekends. I had on old boiler way past its prime 9200 btu if I remember correctly. I sent my dad to the supply house to get me a new boiler and told him to make sure it was big enough. Had small kids and wife home alone all week. The boiler he bought is a Burnham and it a good one it was a display floor model and dad got a killer price, thats the reason for this size. The house heating system is hot water through cast iron radiators each one has its own balancing valve so every room in the house is the same temp. If there are any HVAC guys on here they can tell you this is about as good as it gets. The house has its own pump its a thrush and it kicks butt its top notch. I have a60 plate water to water heat exchanger from the wood to the gas system, 190000 btu I think. I measured the pipe and there is 62 feet of 1 inch pipe out to the wood boiler 50 feet of which is inside an attached garage which is insulated but not real well. The 12 feet of pipe out side is up on blocks and is insulated. All but 8 feet of the inside is insulated, the last 8 feet is next to my domestic water from the well and this way there is no way I can freeze the well water line. The boiler pump is a TACO 0013 and it is new. Nothing special about the house but its the same as it was 40 years ago. Sure it could stand an up grade but this variable remains the same. As for the gallons of propane a year, when all I used was gas I wood burn around 1200 gallon a year but keep in that also includes a 50 gal water heater and a large 6 burner grill that we have always used year around, and a wife that can use more hot water than a group of teenagers.

 

[pipe welder]

I ran out of space on the last post. So here is a good example. It was 58 degrees here last night, at 10:30 I put 7 logs in the OWB ranging in size from 8 to 10 inches in diameter and 24 to 30 inches in length. This was not a full load but it already had some in it and it was 58 out side. I didn't check it until about 9:00 this morning and there was just part of one round lefe and the boiler temp was 131, but now realize that it was 62 out side so there was hardly any heating load all night. We never set the house thermostat above 69 because neither one of us like a hot house. AS to where the btu's are going there is only one place. It has to be up the stack. The efficiency is just not there. I don't know how many typo's here probably a bunch.

 

[Slick]

What kind of insulation on the pipes and how thick?

I don't think metal pipes are an issue at all, it's a really expensive way to do it but if you had it and can fit it yourself go for it...but hopefully you realize we're all just curious because there are others on here with that same exact unit you have and their BTUs somehow get to the house...so please bear with us if we're a bit reluctant to believe they are magically going up the stack If you had some kind of unit we've never seen or heard of...but like I said, that is a common unit and others manage to heat just fine with it...thus our questions
So how about those insulation specs?
Oh and do you have a y-strainer before the plate exchanger?
How about air bleeders, where do you have them?
Heating with baseboards?

 

[ngzcaz]

Well, in the spirit of a good discussion here goes.. First I fully stand by my decision to use pex pipe underground.. I don't think you'd find too many people who would recommend steel whether they get it for free or not. Pex is really cheap and easy to work with and most importantly freeze resistant if need be. However, if you used one inch or above and insulated if ( curious to know with what and how much which is REALLY important ) ) that shouldn't be the culprit. And btw, multistory buildings all have their pipes inside, not outside. As one who has had steel pipes burst, its silly ( IMHO ) to even think they compare with modern day pex, but again, that's probably not the problem and your decision to live with when they close up on you..

I find it amazing to read your life's story and not find out what square footage your house is or how its insulated. How in the world did you figure out what unit to purchase ? You turned around and bought the second smallest woodmaster they had to offer ? Given your decision to go overboard as you put it, why wouldn't you do the same with the OWB ?

Its this simple ( IMHO ) you either have : too small a unit
an auto fill/pipe thats leaking
stat thats incorrect/boiling
even lousier wood than me
heat loss thru the pipes
draft blower not shutting off/or
not operating properly
( fill in the ones I missed )

Its not true that the boiler was the only thing changed, it was one of several components, most importantly is the fact you ran pipes outside and connected it to the owb and pump/ etc. That's the constant and the one to look at closely. I'd sure be interested in knowing what that water temp is when it comes out of your OWB and what it is when it comes in the house. Borrow an infrared unit and check it. Eliminate some possible causes. From what I read I didnt see too much that was checked out and eliminated.. Did you ever go out and listen to the draft motor if it shuts off after reaching temp ? Did you look at the chimney occasionally in a similar fashion. Its real easy to see if the draft motor is on by the smoke/updraft.

Finally, its your unit but after spending thousands on it, I'd sure want to talk w/ a reputable dealer and it doesn't even have to be a woodmaster dealer. You seem to adamantly refuse to do so. These things for the most part are remarkably similar. A woodfire surrounded by water that's heated from the firebox with a chimney. A draft motor, thermostat and pump. Fancy advertising aside, why do you think the burn times are so similar for different types of OWB's ? A POS woodmaster ( or any unit ) is really hard to fathom that its that far off the mark.. I do agree they are remarkably inefficient for the most part and in a few years will be much better. I sure hope the improvements can be aftermarket........

 

[pipe welder]

ngz I can't seem to drive through your head that there is only 12 feet of pipe outside, all the rest is in a heated garage and even the part inside is insulated. The outside has 1/2 inch foam covered with 3 1/2 of fiberglass and finally that is covered with plastic. I don't need some infrared gadget when I have inline thermometers with thermometer wells installed in the lines. there isn't 1 degree difference between boiler temp and and water temp at the heat exchanger. No there is no strainer but I am getting plenty of delta across it, I will assure you that you won't set your butt on one of my radiators very long. You keep harping on the house insulation. Once again it is the same as it was with the gas boiler and the same as it was with the inside wood boiler so it remains a constant. As far as pex goes its little more than glorified garden hose. Designed so an inexperienced person can install it with no fittings except at termination points. Boiler temp is set at 165 with a 10 degree differential.
All this being said tell me why it used so much wood last night and the fan shut off on low water temp when there was basically no heat load on the boiler at all except its own water. I have not added any wood all day and the fire is out' the house is still warm inside. We have had high wind all afternoon so obviously my house isn't real hard to keep warm. I won't even fire it up tonight and the house will probably still be around 67 or 68 in the morning.

 

[modn]

Now c'mon...you can't blame him for asking......that is the 1st time we have heard that the temp is within 1 degree at the exchanger.....now we are getting somewhere. Is your boiler full of water? Are you running glycol or just water? You never did answer if your boiler was smoldering when it needs no heat, then comes to life when it does....basically what I'm getting at is there a draft leak somewhere, even a very little bit? When it is warm inside and your boiler has reached the said cut off temp and you open the door, do you get a face full of smoke and the wood looks like charcoal or is it still flaming? What is the temp on the return side at the boiler? Do you have a temp gauge there? Can you get a pic of the exchanger or the install?

 

[bowtechmadman]

Phew glad I got a good woodmaster. Stacked her full Thursday at 3pm...turned the stats down to 67, returned home Sat. morning at 3am to 174 degree water and quite a bit of wood left (yep got a good face load of smoke when I opened her up). If my math is right that's 36hrs, then again my pex only runs 120 ft, and i'm only heating 3800 sq. ft home.

 

[modn]

Phew glad I got a good woodmaster. Stacked her full Thursday at 3pm...turned the stats down to 67, returned home Sat. morning at 3am to 174 degree water and quite a bit of wood left (yep got a good face load of smoke when I opened her up). If my math is right that's 36hrs,

then again my pex only runs 120 ft, and i'm only heating 3800 sq. ft home

.

Well there's your problem right there!!!:hmm3grin2orange: With that little house and that little bit of line you should be able to leave for a solid week!!


Seriously, that's great!!

 

[ngzcaz]

this is what he doesn't seem to get. These units are basically the same. Assuming they are properly sized ( a big assumption since after all these posts we STILL dont know what kind of an area he's heating, might be 10,000 sq ft for all we know and yes it DOES make a difference, I dont care what you were using for propane or anything else ) if he has too much draft the water temp should be out of whack ) it cant be a blockage because you are running out of wood. That leaves us with the draft again or heat loss which you say cant be it ( by the way, how are heating the garage, could it be with the OWB ? if so how big is it ? oh I forgot, you dont answer sq ft questions )


Sorry if this sounds a bit scarastic but getting the info to help you is like a dentist trying to pull a stubborn tooth. Draft and or improperly sized unit seems to be the common denominator, but it sounds like a draft situation if what you are saying is correct. OR somehow you are building a fire directly under the chimney and all the wood you add is directly under the chimney, and all the heat is going directly up the chimney,now thats REALLY improbable but possible I guess...

Did you ever say what kind of draft setup it is or how its adjusted ?

 

[pipe welder]

Boy you guys don't know how to have a good argument on here. You need to go over to ou power , those guy's can show how fight. All these boilers are rated for square footage and not btu's and this in itself give's them a way out. Just to many variables. If you go to their web site if I recall correctly the 4400 is rated for 5000 square feet, I have less than 2000 including the garage. The guy says why didn't I get the next size bigger, well with the horrendous amount of wood this thing burns I hate to think how much a bigger one would use. I tried to give a little background along with answering questions and I tried to be nice. But here is the thing, those here who are trying to fight me are on my terf. I was willing to lay my cards on the table I told every one my qualifications and I can prove them , when you challenge me tell every one what your background is in the piping, heating and boiler industry. Show me you have better qualifications than I do. Someone will say why don't you call a heating professional. Well [ duh ] that's like telling the cops why don't call the police? Or my personal favorite, see your dealer. Hey it ain't his fault he did his job, he is a salesman. I hold no malice toward the guy, in fact I like the guy. Why should he be held responsible for poorly designed equipment? But getting on here don't you think I haven't had other people look at it? all my friends are retired pros and they have all looked at it, my nephew who owns a pluming and heating service business looked at it. My nephew even put his electronic flow meter on it so we could prove flow and how much. Everybody that looks says the same thing, boy that a nice system' to which I reply yep sure is it just don't work.