Bush seeks to thin forests

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So who is right on this? Cut the big trees to let the little guys grow? Cut the underbrush and small trees? I prefer cutting the big guys but for tree management who is correct? Is this too hot a topic or too one sided on this site?
 
My opinion a a little bit of both. If you cut all the big guys, you risk losing the genetic material that let the big guys get big in the first place, and big guys are better at making seed than the little guys. If you cut all the little guys, you end up losing the high-value big guys to insects, weather, etc., and not recovering the value. Additionally, if cut only the little guys, you end up with an even-aged stand that increases the risk of loss due to the above factors.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but highlights the key issues I have identified.

Unforturnately, it appears to me that the best answer lies in the gray middle ground. Also, unfortunately, the gray middle ground is prime breeding habitat for bureaucrats and other such pests. On the up side, it also keeps foresters and other natural resource managers working, since if a simple formula could be applied to management practices, we wouldn't need trained professionals to make management decisions.
 
Reducing the fire load is not just one or the other (big trees vs. brush). Nor is it extinguishing all fires vs. letting all fires burn. Selective cutting, removing underbrush in susceptible immature areas, reforestation (including non-susceptible species as fire breaks) all would help in harvestable timber stands.
The National forests idea came about when Teddy Roosevelt saw other countries devoid of any forested areas because of excessive harvesting. He wanted to preserve our forested areas for all the country's population.
If responsible cutting will help save those forests for future generations, I don't see any conflict with the original intent of the program. In fact, I encourage it. But I'm just one voter.
 
I'm just one voter.

After this election between BUSH and GORE I feel pretty good about how one voter can influence the election process. I think your vote does count!
 
'Not sure how germaine this is but PBS had a special a few weeks back on this issue. What struck me was a part about how controlled clearing/burns were actually healthy for the forest. Surveying photo records of Sequoia NP, they discovered that there had not been any new sequoias germinate for years. All of the underbrush was comprised of smaller species. So they had a controlled burn that cleared the forest floor and found that new sequoias were taking root a year later.
Here in PA we have the exact opposite problem in some areas because of whitetail deer. They are eating all of the new growth before it gets a chance to gain a foothold.
Given what I've seen on the news, I believe this new clearing policy will benefit, provided the cleared areas are replanted and managed.
 
We have the science and the technology to maximize forest benefits for all concerned, as long as all concerned understand that some local compromises will have to be made. For example,the tree-huggers can have some old-growth forests, and they can see first-hand the wildlife benefits resulting from both selective cuts and clear-cutting, depending on local conditions.

We don't have the collective national will, IMO, to work out the details, however.
 
Fire helps trees germinate

I watched on TV or read some where those big Sequoias that are 1000's of years old need a hot fire to burst open the seed cones. I figuire forest fires have been going on for some time and we put things out of balance by not allowing the forest to "clean itself up" by "purification of fire" Afterall look at this Mt. St. Helens volcano. The ecologists say the land will be better off in a hundred years or so after the devastation to the forest. We need a long term outlook. Didn't most of the worlds forest get used up when the big sailing ships were all the thing for countries to build and sail the seven seas? I know a guy who worked for Stone container and they planted more trees in Puerto Rico than the country has in trees (for one particular region) What does canadfa do for tree/forestry management?
 
As our state burns around us, one thing is very clear.
The great distance between sides, (Tree huggers & timber industry) makes it almost impossible to come up with a workable solution. Many of the environmentalists around here, will not tolerate any plan that involves cutting trees. It is strange how the more people that leave the rural areas for the cities, the more they want control of the resources. Anytime the discussion mentions cutting trees, they tend to quit listening and dig in their heels.
Or Governor wants to pay people to remove a lot of the underbrush and small trees, but not cut any marketable timer. Predictions for costs go into the billions of dollars. Typical big government thinking, “lets pay to do what we could have let industry do. If the timber industry does it, it generates revenue for schools….
 
Rob,
Where does your governor plan on putting the displaced wildlife and what does he plan on feeding them? Nobody knows everything, but at his level he should have advisors smart enough to tell him that just cutting out the brush and smaller trees is not the answer. Forests are dynamic systems. I'm not picking on your governor. I just think that, generally speaking, the citizens and leaders of this country have been mis-led by well intentioned do-gooders whose actions are counter-productive to their own purported cause. The answers are not that simple.
By the way, just as some seeds need fire to germinate, other seeds may need to pass through animals digestive tracts to germinate.
It will be interesting to see what the new national policy is going to be.
 
There are really good answers here already.

Has anyone read Sebastian Junger's book "Fire"? The first two chapters are about fire fighters and fire control. A good read!

As has been said, this isn't a simple problem or solution. From what I have read, it seems that if the undergrowth was burnt occasionally the forests would be healthier. That doesn't seem to include what anyone would call logging. The plan that is being discussed talks about logging. The other concern is that, under the guise of "fire control" there will be logging done in areas that have been deemed very environmentally sensitive.

If the areas that they want to log actually have standing dead trees then it seems like a good idea to get them out before they turn into a fire. If the trees are live, let 'em live. Cutting live trees doesn't seem like any way to control fires.

This seems like another way that the Bush administration is using a percieved "threat" to change the direction that our society has worked to move in. They have already convinced us that it is in the interest of "nationla security" that we give up some of our rights. Now they're moving into the environmental arena too.

Tom
 
It seems that proper timber management on a smaller scale is generally accepted as sound practice from an environmental and industrial standpoint. It's good for the trees, wildlife habitat and the economy.Why can't it work on a larger scale as well?

Time has proven that the direction (ala smokey the bear) that society has chosen is just as harmful (or even more so) as going in and clear cutting virgin stands of old growth. Our woodlands must be managed at this point as we have already imposed ourselves so greatly upon nature not to manage them.

Take the rest and leave the best is just as bad as take the best and leave the rest. A firestorm in an environmentally sensitive area would be just as devasating as logging. We interupted natures cycle and now need to manage the forests to bring things back into sync or risk more and more irepairable ecosystem changes. Conservation, not preservation.
 
Tom,
Are you calling the events of Sept. 11, 2001 "perceived"?
And I have to ask...does Stihl share those views, cause if they do I'll be god????ed if I'll ever buy another product from them.
 
Bill,

I missed the connection between what I said and Stihl. Can you elaborate?

Please understand that I take full responsibility for everything that I say and do. I have no connection to Stihl or any other company. My comments stand on their own. I don't wear Teflon clothes. What I say, sticks to me, whether I like it or not :)

How many times have we had a customer with a tree that lost a branch in a windstorm? In their mind, they would be better off just cutting the tree down instead of doing maintenance, maybe a cable, a little pruning. Removal is an overreaction. With sound, proven, progressive tree care techniques, the tree has a long life ahead. Removal has no future. Fire management has a longer future than logging/removing the trees. It's a perception that removal/logging is the ONLY and BEST solution. Generally, simple solutions are more complex than this.

9/11 of course, wasn't perceived. The extreme reaction to those events aren't a justification for the responses. There are many examples of the government, with good intentions, has done things that are, in MY opinion, not in the best interests of our freedoms.

Maybe I should stop here before this whole discussion gets too political. I would enjoy continuing the discussion off the forum though. Write any time.

Tom
 
My two bits:

From a 1958 visit to the sequoias and current pictures of the same areas, I can see the need to cut living trees in that environment. The danger to the big trees is not fire in its historical sense of every few years. The bark at 24" thick does a good job of insulating from a small fire. Fire suppression for many years has however, created a thick stand of white fir and other species that did not exist historically in the area. These are now achieving enough height to allow the fire into the crowns of the giants, which prior to this had been safe. The protection afforded by nature in the thick bark has no benefit in a crown fire.

My ex college roommate, a BLM man for the past 30 years, has often written about the number of beetle killed trees in the Blue Mt. of Oregon and suggested after returning from fire duty in Yellowstone in 88 that they had the potential in that area for a much bigger fire sometime in the future. Salvage logging of the dead trees had been prevented by protests until they no longer had economic value and became fuel.

A third point, showing the frustration of timber management is the set of Environmental Impact Statement documents involving Spotted Owl (anyone else remember him???) management on a single BLM district near Roseburg, OR. It impresses my students when I bring out this 10" high stack of plans, revisions, and maps in class. Then when I say that this was just the draft copies, not the final and that draft and final each had a printing in excess of 1000 copies (several trees) the students question the common sense behind the operation.

Our environment is important to me as a forester. But it has been altered too much by man's presence to be left with no intervention. Intervention has been part of its history also. Early americans realized that edges were great wildlife habitat and so used fire to create this in dense areas. Historically huge fires would occasionally occur, but were rare. Upon hitting an area previously cleared by fire, they lost their heat and died back to ground fires. We have too many homes scattered through the woods to let them burn now, so alternatives may be needed to alter what we have altered over the years. Harvests following the patterns of fire spread, which we historically know and can model on computer programs, may be a good choice. New equipment leaves a light footprint on the landscape and the result maybe a more aesthetically pleasing alternative than Letting it Burn.

Sorry for the length, but felt the need to express some of my thoughts.

Bob U.
 
Good one Bob,

I have seen pics of the sequoia groves 50 yrs ago, before current fire management policies, and current pics. Easy to see the problem.

Fire management versus let it burn policies are a tough call. The forests are very different than before the white man came with his destructive influences.

So many variables, so many opinions, so many political groups......
 
Speaking of beetle kills, it is a huge problem in BC. And I think they are not allowed to log them, which would sure seem to be the wrong approach.
 
Beetle kill is a major problem in British Columbia...yes...but we do log it as fast as we can to use the timber while we can...most of it is salvage logged...at a very low stumpage fee...usually 25 cents a cubic metre...Our particular valley is very hard hit right now...as is our provincial park...but they (govt/treehuggers) wont let us touch it...and its a huge fire waiting to happen...
 
clearcut sections

I was reading about Bush's plan to thin out the forest's. Has anybody mentioned or thought about tryng to divide these forest's up into sections. What I mean is to clearcut sections a mile wide or something to that effect that would help to divide it into manegable squares so if a fire did break out it could only burn to the clearcut point, hopefully making it a little easier to contain. I dont know much about forest fires it is just a thought. Take care Wade
 
Crowe a mile isn't enough

A mile isn't enough when it comes to these big fires. Also winds can carry burning ash several miles.
 
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