Bush seeks to thin forests

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Thanks Dennis. Good to hear a lot of the trees are being salvaged.I was probably remembering what you said about the park's killed trees. I know it is like pulling teeth to get anything done in there, even if it makes sense for the ecology. Boy, there sure are a lot of dead ones up there, as well as lots of pretty fair sized timber!
 
Don,
I am sure you are right. I was just talking out my rump. I just hate to see all that happening it make's me sick to my stomach. Hopefully a answer lies somehwere that will put into affect. Take care Wade
 
I notice you guys speaking of beetles, are you fellows familiar with the Gypsy moth. It has been working it's way South from maine over the last two years it's origin I am not sure of. Man, it has really started to reak haveck on what little timber we have left in these parts. It just goes to town on white oak and chestnut oak. I cut a piece earlier this year in late May and they were everywhere they were pooping all over me as fast as they ate it, it was coming out the other end. If you shut the saw and skidder off and just sat their you could hear it falling down like rain white stuff all over my shoulders. The forestry has offered a new program where for around 8 dollars an acre they will fly over and spray your property to try and stop them from spreading. Its pretty hard to contain with logs being transported all over log buyers are supposed to be spraying these logs down before sending them off but I dont think it is being done. Hell, I think they are happy to see them, thinking maybe it will help them to secure some big tracts of timber they wouldnt be able to get under normal circumstances. Anyway I have rambled on enough, take care Wade
 
First i have my own opinions and they arent educated professionally. But here is what i think anyway

We have acres apon acres of sequoias and if i remember right it takes 1000 yrs for one to mature. Lets do some math.
1,000,000 acres of sequoias / cut 1000 acres each year (not clear cutting but taking out what would be equivalent to 1000 acres)
you would always have mature sequoias growing. But what you would gain is you would have the dynamics of trees in every stage of growth.

Why cant we harvest all tress like this, do an overall aspect. Use satellites and photography from planes to target areas to harvest each year. You can go in with helicopters to leave the smallest ecological footprint. There has to be a way to do what is right.

Just my 1.5 cents
 
Today this was the editorial column that was below the fold in the Minneapolis Star Tribune. the column does a much better job than I can in explaining the threat to the forests that the Bush logging plan presents.

If you want to read the original or to read the above the fold column, follow this link: http://www.startribune.com/


Tom

Editorial: Bush and forests / A policy built on fallacies


Published Aug 27, 2002
ED27


The first fallacy in President Bush's new forest management policy is that it's
necessary to restore woodland health. The second is that it constitutes a fresh
response to a bad fire season.

In fact, national forest managers had an ambitious plan for thinning trees and
reducing underbrush before Bush took office. It was inspired by the bad fires
of summer 2000, and it drew wide if cautious backing from environmentalists
as well as proponents of more aggressive forest management. This spring it
won support from a panel of Western governors and Bush aides.

It wasn't sufficient, however, for the timber industry, which continues to seek
greater access to federal lands under any available pretense. A few years ago,
salvage logging was the justification; now it's fire prevention. It is their
lobbying, not a bad fire season, to which the Bush plan's parentage may be
traced.

There is little argument that some clearing of overgrowth can restore the
national forests to a more natural state. But the work will be quite expensive,
and Bush proposes to reduce the cost to taxpayers by letting timber
companies take merchantable trees along with unsell able scrub.

That is not in itself a bad idea. But Bush overreaches in two critical respects:
first, by giving too much decisionmaking power to timber companies under
"stewardship contracts"; second, by dramatically limiting the 30-year-old right
of citizen or environmental groups to challenge timber sales in court.

The administration says thinning efforts are being held up by environmentalists
who appeal every sale. This is not so. While antilogging groups scrutinize
thinning projects with great care, federal data show that only a tiny handful
have been challenged. In any case, the law already permits environmental
reviews to be expedited or suspended in true emergencies.

If the president wants to move faster on fire, there are more productive things
his administration could do.

The U.S. Forest Service needs more money for its thinning programs and less
for firefighting, a balance the president can address through his budgeting
authority. In addition, the service needs to focus more of its thinning work in
the so-called wildland/urban interface, less in the backcountry.

Another major advance can be accomplished at almost no taxpayer cost.
Homeowners in the interface need more encouragement -- if not a firm
requirement -- to take minimal steps to reduce the fire vulnerability of their
own properties. As an advocate of personal responsibility, President Bush
must surely be attuned to the illogic of letting firefighting efforts be driven by
property owners who build where they oughtn't, then sit on their hands, then
expect federal help when flames are approaching.



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© Copyright 2002 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.
 
NY Times article

Bush on Fire

August 27, 2002
By PAUL KRUGMAN






Round up the usual suspects! George W. Bush's new "Healthy
Forests" plan reads like a parody of his administration's
standard operating procedure. You see, environmentalists
cause forest fires, and those nice corporations will solve
the problem if we get out of their way.

Am I being too harsh? No, actually it's even worse than it
seems. "Healthy Forests" isn't just about scrapping
environmental protection; it's also about expanding
corporate welfare.

Everyone agrees that the forests' prime evil is a
well-meaning but counterproductive bear named Smokey.
Generations of fire suppression have led to a dangerous
accumulation of highly flammable small trees and
underbrush. And in some - not all - of the national forests
it's too late simply to reverse the policy; thanks to
growing population and urban sprawl, some forests are too
close to built-up areas to be allowed to burn.

Clearly, some of the excess fuel in some of the nation's
forests should be removed. But how? Mr. Bush asserts that
there is a free lunch: allowing more logging that thins out
the national forests will both yield valuable resources and
reduce fire risks.

But it turns out that the stuff that needs to be removed -
small trees and bushes, in areas close to habitation - is
of little commercial value. The good stuff, from the
industry's point of view, consists of large, mature trees -
the kind of trees that usually survive forest fires - which
are often far from inhabited areas.

So the administration proposes to make deals with logging
companies: in return for clearing out the stuff that should
be removed, they will be granted the right to take out
other stuff that probably shouldn't be removed. Notice that
this means that there isn't a free lunch after all. And
there are at least three severe further problems with this
plan.

First, will the quid pro quo really be enforced, or will
loggers simply make off with the quid and forget about the
quo? The Forest Service, which would be in charge of
enforcement, has repeatedly been cited by Congress's
General Accounting Office for poor management and lack of
accountability. And the agency, true to Bush administration
form, is now run by a former industry lobbyist. (In the
2000 election cycle, the forest products industry gave 82
percent of its contributions to Republicans.) You don't
have to be much of a cynic to question whether loggers will
really be held to their promises.

Second, linking logging of mature trees to clearing of
underbrush is a policy non sequitur. Suppose Mayor Mike
Bloomberg announced that Waste Management Inc. would pick
up Manhattan's trash free, in return for the right to dump
toxic waste on Staten Island. Staten Island residents would
protest, correctly, that if Manhattan wants its garbage
picked up, it should pay for the service; if the city wants
to sell companies the right to dump elsewhere, that should
be treated as a separate issue. Similarly, if the federal
government wants to clear underbrush near populated areas,
it should pay for it; if it wants to sell the right to log
mature trees elsewhere, that should be a separate decision.


And this gets us to the last point: In fact, the government
doesn't make money when it sells timber rights to loggers.
According to the General Accounting Office, the Forest
Service consistently spends more money arranging timber
sales than it actually gets from the sales. How much money?
Funny you should ask: last year the Bush administration
stopped releasing that information. In any case, the
measured costs of timber sales capture only a fraction of
the true budgetary costs of logging in the national
forests, which is supported by hundreds of millions of
dollars in federal subsidies, especially for road-building.
This means that, environmental issues aside, inducing
logging companies to clear underbrush by letting them log
elsewhere would probably end up costing taxpayers more, not
less, than dealing with the problem directly.

So as in the case of the administration's energy policy,
beneath the free-market rhetoric is a plan for increased
subsidies to favored corporations. Surprise.

A final thought: Wouldn't it be nice if just once, on some
issue, the Bush administration came up with a plan that
didn't involve weakened environmental protection, financial
breaks for wealthy individuals and corporations and reduced
public oversight?
 
Oregon Bob is on the mark

Oregon Bob wrote on another string with a similar topic :

“This means that, environmental issues aside, inducing
logging companies to clear underbrush by letting them log
elsewhere would probably end up costing taxpayers more, not
less, than dealing with the problem directly.”

What ever, obviously you haven’t seen many government operations in action.
The estimates for the clean up in Oregon is $1-2,000,000,000, (count them zeros).
Which in real world terms, means that it would end up more like 5B and never get very far. Right now, we are looking at across the board cuts of 20% in Oregon because Tax revenue is down dramatically.
If you think expanding the government role, (doing the thinning), would be better for anyone you really need to take a look around.
I agree, the Forest Service is broken, but fix the problem, don’t enlarge it.

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I think the Government gets out of hand. It swings to various degrees both ways, conservative and liberal. The way I see it the essence of this topic is : Can the US Forestry service manage the resources or can private enterprise manage it? I think they need to work together, but emotion takes over and irrational compromises end up as the "normal way" or doing thing. SNAFU.
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Look at the nuclear waste problem. Congress made it illegal to recycle nuclear waste. France and Japan are leaders in recycling. Why is it so? Can you say build'em for the MAD initiative setforth by NIXON.
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How much world forest was there before the "tall ships" industrial revolution happened ?
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Why can't we replant and harvest it? Bureuacrats inhibit progress but prevent constant failure and consistant success. Compromise is the law of the land.
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Wow, wouldnt be great if the Government planted enough trees for the consumption of every "new" person in the USA? I would appreciate a policy such as this. I think its called vision or foresight.

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Unfortunately our politics evovle/revolve around two self centered political ideologies and their time horizon is the next election , which is every 2 to 4 years.
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Maybe we should genetically alter trees so they mature in 2 years? It would help the political side of things!
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Okay gotta go do something before I blow a gasket!:blob2:
 
ow much world forest was there before the "tall ships" industrial revolution
happened ?

***There were very few trees used to build the large ships during the age of sail. More wood was used to fuel blast furnaces to make glass and iron. A number of years ago I bought a fifty cent book from the county library called "A Forest Journey: the role of wood in the development of civilization" by John Perlin. He shows how the loss of trees has lead to the downfall of most major civilizations. Through history, ship building was not a large wood consumer.
___________________________________________________

Why can't we replant and harvest it? Bureuacrats inhibit progress but prevent
constant failure and consistant success. Compromise is the law of the land.

***Ed Abbey alwasy maintained that when there was comprimise, nature gave up and civilization lost. When there were proposals to build fifty miles of roads into a roadless area the final "comprimise" was to allow thirty. If there were true comprimise, thirty miles of existing roads would have been removed and let go to seed. That's truly comprimise. Like Earth! First says "No comprimes in the protection of Mother Earth."

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Wow, wouldnt be great if the Government planted enough trees for the
consumption of every "new" person in the USA? I would appreciate a policy such
as this. I think its called vision or foresight.

****If the whole world were to live at the economic level that Americans are used to we would need four more planets in order to have the resources.

Tom
 
Look up !

I bet some of those shinny things in the sky will be a viable habitat someday.
 
Shinny things

Yeah, but maybe not.

A misperception: Smokey the environmentalist. the Forest Service originally began fire supression as a way to preserve timber--at the behest of the large harvesting corporations. Smokey was a friendly face put on this corporate wealfare effort.
Conservationalists came into federal fire suppression later on (and there's no denying that they're a big part of it now).

That being said, I think it is important to thin the ladder trees, and if the private sector will adapt to this strategy, that's a good thing. But big business hasn't exactly proven itself to be trustworthy stewards of much of anything in our history. Bush's plan puts too much faith in these corporations.

Not trying to "inflame" you guys who make a living (or try to) in the woods--I've done the same at periods of my life. But lets talk about forest ecosystems, not just forests, or we become irrelavent in the larger public and global debate.
 
Ecosystems and forestry management

Just like a political ideology puts themselves first and their agenda before the welfare of others (whatever is legally possible and beyond)
I think the so called "environmentalists" do the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------What I find so amusing is how the issue becomes "emotional" and skew the facts just like the opposition does.
Then you get crap for a solution or no solution.
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There needs to be forestry management regardless who does it. Fires are a natural cycle and so are floods. If man doesn't intervene nature will.
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Man needs the earth to survive, the earth doesn't need man.
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Regardless of what man does to the earth the earth will still be here. Humans may not be. Personally I want to cut trees on Mars!
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The earth is a finite resource and even the so called "renewable resources need finite resources to "renew"
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So how do you manage it. Hybrid or naturally?
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There is no such thing as natural anymore because the ecosystem has been manipulated (naturally and artificially) and it will never be put back in its original condition .
 

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