Carbide Chains (are they worth it?)

[jbone]

As some of you may already know from my other threads/posts I am in a volunteer fire dept. I am looking into replacing the carbide chains for some of our saws. I am kind of confused. I have been reading a lot about them and some say the are great and others say they break too easily b/c they are much harder, etc. Not only that but they are really expensive!!!!!!! Around $200 for a single loop So is it really worth the extra $$. I know we use these chains in pretty rough conditions, but they are really expensive to maintain as well. Is there any cheaper alternative? Just looking for suggestions, and Im thinking there isnt b/c if there was a lot of depts. wouldnt be buying the carbides. Thanks!

 

[Diesel JD]

Well, for what you guys do, where it just has to work...I would say yeah, venting roofs and what not. However, if you also do disaster relief adn storm cleanup, put those chains in the toolbox and save them for rescue and firefighting, and get some good round chisel chain. Its easy to maintain and available for all pro saws over 2.5 CID. I'm assuming you use the Rapco type carbide chains which have the metal solderd on to the cutters. I don't know if the Inject-a-sharp type carbide would suffice for your applications but at 35 cents a drive link it IS cheaper and you could try a loop or two in training situations and if it is sufficient, maybe save your department a few bucks. Poke here to check them both out...good prices here too http://baileys-online.com Good luck and thanks for what you guys do,
J.D.

 

[PES+]

Even the Rapco can get torn up and dull

There are special blades for cut off saws and I never did figure out why chain and bars cane into vogue for venting. Perhaps there is a real need for deeper than 7 inch depth of cut? I know more than one Firefighter has fallen through roofs during venting because of cutting too much support out with the chainsaw. Ring saws are a better alternative but are rare but on the comeback.


Inject a sharp is all done when you catch a couple of nails

 

[Rotax Robert]

I for one agree with pest, One of the reasons for accidents with the saws is inexperiece in what they are cutting into as well as inexperience using a saw period. Seldom is there the need to use full depth of the bar in venting a roof nor is there a need to use the full depth of a cutoff saw. I spent 10 years as a volunteer firefighter and I was amazed at how amature these men and women were in clearing a simple downed tree much less feeling thier way over and around rafters, joists etc. While we did use carbide chain for practice we would usualy clear the asphalt shingles as to save the chain, granted this takes away from some of the reality as you are cutting mostly wood and a few nails. Proper training in the basic use of a saw as well as what to feel for as you are cutting will go along way. We utilized both chain and cutoff saws. In my opinion the cutoff saw will work better for the inexperienced saw person and can be had for the price of several new rapco chains. Hope I did not derail this to much but as for using regular chipper chain your venting process will slow to a crawl because the tooth will become very dull very fast. Good thread !

Rotax Robert

 

[stihl025]

There are special blades for cut off saws and I never did figure out why chain and bars cane into vogue for venting. Perhaps there is a real need for deeper than 7 inch depth of cut? I know more than one Firefighter has fallen through roofs during venting because of cutting too much support out with the chainsaw.

The whole reason why chainsaws came into play in the fire service is because of the adjustable depth gauge mounted on the bar. Sure, they make great blades for use on a cut off saw, but try to adjust the depth of the cut with a very awkward reach of the cut off saw and you will find that the chainsaw is easier to use under live fire conditions. Most vent saws come equipped with the depth guage which can limit a cut all the way down to 1/2", factor in the longer reach of the bar and faster overall cutting, and there are the advantages of the chainsaw. We don't use the Rapco chain, instead we are using the Bullet chain which can cut through thin sheet metal as well. Serves as a dual purpose machine, cutting the need for the cut off saw in some situations.

http://www.cuttersedge.com/products/bullet.html

 

[jbone]

stihl025- how do those chains work out for you? How much do they cost compared to rapco and others, and how easy are they to maintain. Thanks guys for all of the insight and keep the tips coming!!

 

[ericjeeper]

We had a K=12 saw in a nice shiney aluminum case

It was a great saw. when it ran. You figure a chainsaw will likely be used twice a year. Instead of just the once the K12 was being used.
The K12 just faded away with the clay pipe

 

[jbone]

I looked at baileys and under rapco they list "price per drive link" for the carbide chain, yet they show a pic of the chisel.....so what is it?

 

[DOLMARatOs]

For venting purposes a chainsaw with an adjustable depth guage and Rapco carbide chain is the standard for all the departments in this area. Every fire department should have at least 1 or 2 60cc or larger saws with wood chisel chain, sprocket nosed bar, etc. for cutting trees. Carbid chain doesn't do so well and all the vent saws we see have the oilers pegged wide-open, soild nosed bars, plus you'd have to pull the depth guage off or swap out a bar. For the trouble and time they could outfit a couple grass trucks or rescue trucks with a regular chainsaw.

 

[WRW]

The cut off saw is good for venting composite roofs, but it has drawbacks as well. It has no kickback protection...seen it happen once where the guard hit a guy in the face. The blade is slow to stop...was not there but heard about a cutter turning and hitting the officer in the pants leg with the rotating blade. In wood floors and roofs the cut off saw is slower than the carbide tipped chainsaw...fooled me, but that was the result.

I'm not sold on the depth guides for the chainsaws, but I'm not sold on ABS in cars either.

 

[PES+]

Proper technique is everything. I am picking up one of the special FD cutoff blades to do some testing. I know that the full carbide chain is not a fast cutting chain particularly the Bullet type..that is a rock cutter profile that is miserable and slow in wood. The Rapco cut speed is dependent on how it is sharpened but it goes to heck if you catch a bolt or 2 or lots of nails. The new blade guards on the ventilation saws force you to use the tip so kickback is an issue for them as well. It has me thinking I need to rig up a chain brake to a cut off as this would be a simple solution to the kick problem.

 

[WRW]

PEST,
There's a lot of mass in the cut off blades to try to stop moving and I'm guessing that that's why the manufacturers haven't done it already.

Some unscientific testing I did showed the bullet chain had the lowest kickback potential, but that was at the cost of speed in cutting.

Far as the chains going bad, I always just figured that was the cost of doing business. Look at the costs of other fire service rated equipment and don't try to go cheap on this one item.

 

[PES+]

I am not considering cost in my equation but rather the almost complete uselessness of a dull chain for cutting. I am thinking time on the roof only.
The quicker you get the vent cut.....the shorter the time a man is in harms way

 

[WRW]

Is that one of the multi-purpose blades?

I've only had one carbide chain go bad to the point of no longer cutting. That was a non-fire rated chain (years ago) in a tree that was literally full of nails and rocks. After the tree was down, I checked the chain and found two teeth left.

 

[PES+]

They are expensive but I am giving them a shot

 

[romeo]

Just to add a side note here. A carbide chain on a ventilation saw is not a license to be stupid. I ended up with a Johney Red with a broken crankshaft because the fire dept was messing around with some junk cars and a J.O.L. and decided they were going to cut one in half. Not only was this completely stupid but someone could have been seriously hurt or killed if it had kicked back.

No, despite what the salesmen told you, it will not cut a car in half and dont even try. They are designed to cut through roofing materials and any nails and wire that gets in the way.

 

[MS-310]

I guess im kinda think its strange that you dont allready have carbide chains... I would have to do some reading but im think the NFPA has some thing on it.... Anyways we run carbide on are vent saws and love it, ever hit a good sized nail in a tree??? the steel chain does not cut worth crap, hit it with carbide it just keeps cutting well (dont try to do this).

I think an chainsaw is one of the best things that they got on the Fire Dept.

Go with carbide..I think are Echos chain is around 165 bucks.

 

[WRW]

They are expensive but I am giving them a shot

I was impressed by them but wished we had had a more powerful saw. I think it was manual that had one in his dept and posted pictures of it. As I recall, they are reversible.

 

[stihl025]

Just to add a side note here. A carbide chain on a ventilation saw is not a license to be stupid. I ended up with a Johney Red with a broken crankshaft because the fire dept was messing around with some junk cars and a J.O.L. and decided they were going to cut one in half. Not only was this completely stupid but someone could have been seriously hurt or killed if it had kicked back.

No, despite what the salesmen told you, it will not cut a car in half and dont even try. They are designed to cut through roofing materials and any nails and wire that gets in the way.

Ah, another bunch of whackers with rescue tools who have no idea how to use them. That is a shame, if they wanted to cut a car in half, someone should have given them a sawzall and a dozen rescue blades. Instead, a good saw is murdered and someone's safety is compromised at the expense of "fun".

I agree with PEST that proper technique is important, but so is proper training. To be fluent with ventilation under all types of circumstances, you have to practice, and practice a lot. Not just with a vent saw, but with a cut off saw, and with the old fashioned ax. All three are viable options and have their place as conditions warrant. At some point all forms of ventilation are awkward to perform, may it be from the steep angle of the roof, to a flat rubber roof, to a metal roof with water, snow, and ice covering it, let alone the weight and balance of the equipment you are performing the tasks with.

Some here commented on the the speed of the cut being slower with the Bullet chain. That may be so when compared to the Rapco or some other carbide tipped chains, but keep in mind the durability of the design when encountering hidden metal construction materials (ie: nails, H clips, connector plates). Speed is a trade off for durability, but I would rather go onto a roof armed with a tool that gives me a better chance to do the job right the first time, rather than getting struck with a saw that has dull or broken cutters. A hot roof is no place to have a picnic.

WRW said it best with, "Far as the chains going bad, I always just figured that was the cost of doing business. Look at the costs of other fire service rated equipment and don't try to go cheap on this one item."
Putting a cheap carbide chain on a fire department service saw is like putting retreads on a Ferrari. You just don't do it.

Jbone: The Bullet chains have worked well. We have been very pleased with their performance considering the abuse they take. No broken cutters yet on any of our loops. The drawbacks are price and finding a local dealer who can service the chain (ie: inspections and sharpening, since it is a special design). We have to send them out to be serviced.

 

[PES+]

Ah, another bunch of whackers with rescue tools who have no idea how to use them. That is a shame, if they wanted to cut a car in half, someone should have given them a sawzall and a dozen rescue blades. Instead, a good saw is murdered and someone's safety is compromised at the expense of "fun".

I agree with PEST that proper technique is important, but so is proper training. To be fluent with ventilation under all types of circumstances, you have to practice, and practice a lot. Not just with a vent saw, but with a cut off saw, and with the old fashioned ax. All three are viable options and have their place as conditions warrant. At some point all forms of ventilation are awkward to perform, may it be from the steep angle of the roof, to a flat rubber roof, to a metal roof with water, snow, and ice covering it, let alone the weight and balance of the equipment you are performing the tasks with.

Some here commented on the the speed of the cut being slower with the Bullet chain. That may be so when compared to the Rapco or some other carbide tipped chains, but keep in mind the durability of the design when encountering hidden metal construction materials (ie: nails, H clips, connector plates). Speed is a trade off for durability, but I would rather go onto a roof armed with a tool that gives me a better chance to do the job right the first time, rather than getting struck with a saw that has dull or broken cutters. A hot roof is no place to have a picnic.

WRW said it best with, "Far as the chains going bad, I always just figured that was the cost of doing business. Look at the costs of other fire service rated equipment and don't try to go cheap on this one item."
Putting a cheap carbide chain on a fire department service saw is like putting retreads on a Ferrari. You just don't do it.

Jbone: The Bullet chains have worked well. We have been very pleased with their performance considering the abuse they take. No broken cutters yet on any of our loops. The drawbacks are price and finding a local dealer who can service the chain (ie: inspections and sharpening, since it is a special design). We have to send them out to be serviced.

Wut he said.....100% agree...I have the equipmemt to sharpen the bullet type but it is time consuming as heck to do a loop and even the bullet chain hates bolts or steel pipes that many roofs seem to have liberally scattered about under the roof decks up here on the older homes........don't ask about the pipes.....I think they were probably old gas lighting pipes or old heating system vents that got closed in in later remodels CLANGGGGG