Chainsawmill Cutting speed's

[Matildasmate]

Got any info Bob

That's a pretty similar speed to what I get in similar width Tuart which has a Janka green hardness of 9.3 kN compared to osage of 9.1 kN. I was getting around 3 mm a second of milling which is ~13/16" in 7 seconds. That was also with a clean chain. Eventually enough resin comes out of the wood and smothers the chain with a black crust that really slows you down by as much as a factor of 2! I haven't tried milling this timber with the water cleaning system yet but I'm hoping this will help.

Hi Bob ........ Have you got any link's or info on janka green hardness for Aussie timber's , that I can check out . Thank's Cheers MM

 

[BobL]

Hi Bob ........ Have you got any link's or info on janka green hardness for Aussie timber's , that I can check out . Thank's Cheers MM

This (http://www.fpc.wa.gov.au/content/species/arid/wandoo.asp) has a list of Western Australian and other Aussie Timber properties including Janka Green Hardness. This is a very useful site - lots of good info.

http://www.sizes.com/units/janka.htm has some data for many trees across the world - mainly for dry hardness but it mentions the Janka green hardness for Osage specifically.


This thread has some interesting info: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/archive/index.php/t-10389.html (recognise the forum?)

 

[woodshop]

csm speed... was milling 20 inch wide osage orange after work today, and timed it. 395XP/36 inch bar with standard 3/8 round ground chisle skip tooth chain just sharpened in 20 inch wide osage orange... I was moving about an inch in 7 seconds, or almost minute and half per foot. That osage is some seriously hard dense stuff though, about as tough as milling gets.

I scored over 1000 bd ft of osage in 6 chunks of the same tree from a tree service bone yard... this stuff is hard and heavy but beautiful golden yellow and machines well in the woodshop. Milling pics when I start to slice it into lumber. Right now I'm just getting it into manageable cants.

 

[BobL]

csm speed... was milling 20 inch wide osage orange after work today, and timed it. 395XP/36 inch bar with standard 3/8 round ground chisle skip tooth chain just sharpened in 20 inch wide osage orange... I was moving about an inch in 7 seconds, or almost minute and half per foot. That osage is some seriously hard dense stuff though, about as tough as milling gets.

I scored over 1000 bd ft of osage in 6 chunks of the same tree from a tree service bone yard... this stuff is hard and heavy but beautiful golden yellow and machines well in the woodshop. Milling pics when I start to slice it into lumber. Right now I'm just getting it into manageable cants.

This post looks familiar?

 

[Matildasmate]

Bob you have a sharp memory mate

This post looks familiar?

Hi Bob ......... you should have been a detective mate :hmm3grin2orange: , you have a sharp memory , Thank's for the info and link's , I shall have a look soon should be interesting . Cheers mm

 

[BobL]

Hi Bob ......... you should have been a detective mate :hmm3grin2orange: , you have a sharp memory , Thank's for the info and link's , I shall have a look soon should be interesting . Cheers mm

MM: - I am a detective my job is to smell out crooked students and crooked science. I have a high sensitivity crap meter - mind you I can dish it out as well.

memory - it's shot and overstuffed - I just use google

Cheers

 

[Matildasmate]

:hmm3grin2orange:

MM: - I am a detective my job is to smell out crooked students and crooked science. I have a high sensitivity crap meter - mind you I can dish it out as well.

memory - it's shot and overstuffed - I just use google

Cheers

:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[woodshop]

This post looks familiar?

well heck ... same post but posted about a day apart? How did that happen???

Anyway, to answer Blue Rider, this is not the usual osage you find around these parts. That's why I jumped on it as soon as I saw the opportunity. Usually osage around here grows pretty crooked and scrubby, often part of a hedgerow along the road. Once in a while you get a tall relatively strait tree as this one. I am not sure what exactly I am going to do with 1000 ft of osage orange... I never had any long strait boards of it before. Just couldn't pass it up.

BobL mentioned milling tuart which is also hard and dense, and mentioned gumming up the chain. I find that oak, butternut, cherry and many other hardwoods do tend to gunk up my chain when milling. The osage however, did not as much. Milling it produced more of a fine powder than other hardwoods. In fact, that fine yellow powder seemed to almost act as a lubricant. Example: ...the pins that hold my Ripsaw guide bar to the ends of the log always get gunked up and have to be cleaned with WD-40 or turpentine when milling most hardwoods or they stop sliding in and out of the pin holes which are machined to very close tolerances. Any residue or gunk on the pins and they won't slide in and out of their holes. With the osage, they remained clean and smooth, and seemed to glide in and out of the pin holes much easier as if I lubricated them with graphite or something. The flip side to milling that much osage was that the fine yellow dust gets EVERYWHERE and seems to penetrate into more nooks and crannies than other milling dust. Could it be that because it is so hard it produces finer milling dust? Or maybe the chemical makeup of the osage orange wood itself is a factor?

I do know that in WW I, they used to grind up osage orange wood to a fine powder and use it to dye military uniforms that tan khaki color.

 

[Oden]

More info and photos of railomatic csm

Railomatic following this thread with great interest, great plans and details, are you going to keep them coming?

I am going to make a CSM based on yours over the next 8 weeks , I like the idea of standing up, away from the dust.

 

[poleframer]

Well, I called Norm at Stens, no luck for a 36" bar. He does have 9 pin sprockets, and chain tho. I'm planning on reworking my mill for a 30" cut, and think I'll go for a narrower kerf. Spose I can get another ES bar, wonder if there .325 tips for the stihl 3002 bars? Any other bar suggestions?
What about guage, .050, .063? Sure is a help to get as much info as is available here before shopping.
Thanks Jared, Raily and all!

 

[Matildasmate]

3/8 x .050 low pro chain

Well, I called Norm at Stens, no luck for a 36" bar. He does have 9 pin sprockets, and chain tho. I'm planning on reworking my mill for a 30" cut, and think I'll go for a narrower kerf. Spose I can get another ES bar, wonder if there .325 tips for the stihl 3003 bars? Any other bar suggestions?
What about Gage, .050, .063? Sure is a help to get as much info as is available here before shopping.
Thanks Jared, Raily and all!

3/8 x .05 low pro , that is what I will be changing to , just my personal preference , I already have it on my small saw and should be able to get what I want , very easily for my big saw . Cheer's MM

 

[poleframer]

3/8 x .05 low pro , that is what I will be changing to , just my personal preference , I already have it on my small saw and should be able to get what I want , very easily for my big saw . Cheer's MM

One problem with the bigger stihls- that tall bar is harder to make choices with. Just talked with my dealer, .325 nose on a 36" ES bar is'nt happening. Cannon is a possibility, but sounds like more than I'm ready to spend now (he quoted me $300+ for cannon bar/nose/sprocket). He also thought that if I did run a .325 on that size bar, the bar thickness would be a problem after so much filing.

 

[Matildasmate]

How about 3/8 x .050 low pro

One problem with the bigger stihls- that tall bar is harder to make choices with. Just talked with my dealer, .325 nose on a 36" ES bar is'nt happening. Cannon is a possibility, but sounds like more than I'm ready to spend now (he quoted me $300+ for cannon bar/nose/sprocket). He also thought that if I did run a .325 on that size bar, the bar thickness would be a problem after so much filing.

How about 3/8 x .050 low pro at Bailey's (a site sponsor)36" bar $129us ....http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=BAWP+36+SS50+01&catID=64 ..... Cheer's MM

 

[poleframer]

"Fits the following chainsaws:
STIHL 024, 026, .., MS 440, MS 440 MAGNUM, MS 460 MAGNUM, MS 660, MS 660M

I need the bigger mount bar (for 084,088,090 etc). They have a bar for 063 ga. 3/8, but I'd prolly go ES at that. Wonder how low pro would work.

Hey Aggie! any idears?

 

[aquan8tor]

How about 3/8 x .050 low pro at Bailey's (a site sponsor)36" bar $129us ....http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=BAWP+36+SS50+01&catID=64 ..... Cheer's MM

I've used the .050 lopro bailey's chain on a 32" oregon powermatch. Boy, does it stretch. After about the third time it broke, I decided it was too weak to use on long bars. I kept the loop & shortened it to use on a 20" bar. I've only broken that once! I may have started it a little tight, but not where I couldn't pull up and get a normal amount of stretch. It just seems to pull the drive links right apart with no warning. The last one was on yellow pine, which certainly isn't a lot of work for any chain.

I have never tried the water-cooling method that you guys are discussing; this might change the stretch aspect, but I sure as heck wouldn't use it without chaps on, and without being absolutely certain that it couldn't hit me or others around the mill. every time it happened, it came to an instant dead stop, but the broken end whipped around; I'm relatively certain it always broke on the top (noncutting) side of the bar & whipped out away from me, but I'm just not 100% positive.


Edit: FWIW, I thought I should add that I am using canola oil instead of petro based oil, but I haven't noticed any extra wear at all on my bars or anything. It costs me less than bar oil, is completely environmentally safe, I can use the sawdust right in the garden, smells a LOT less than petro oil, is viscous at a lower temperature than petro, etc. It also doesn't seem to be any less effective at staying on the bar, surprisingly. I put an aux. oiler on it for longer bars, but it didn't oil enough with regular oil either. I suppose you could put something like lucasoil stabilizer in it as a tackifier, but it works fine for my needs. May be different with those aussie hardwoods. I DO use petro oil in the other saws, as I don't use them enough to not be afraid about biodegradation gumming up the oil pump.

 

[Matildasmate]

"Fits the following chainsaws:
STIHL 024, 026, .., MS 440, MS 440 MAGNUM, MS 460 MAGNUM, MS 660, MS 660M

I need the bigger mount bar (for 084,088,090 etc). They have a bar for 063 ga. 3/8, but I'd prolly go ES at that. Wonder how low pro would work.

Hey Aggie! any idears?

Sorry mate I thought the mount's would be the same as the 660 , how wrong was I . Cheer's MM

 

[BobL]

Thanks for an interesting post H2ON8OR!

I've used the .050 lopro bailey's chain on a 32" oregon powermatch. Boy, does it stretch. After about the third time it broke, I decided it was too weak to use on long bars. I kept the loop & shortened it to use on a 20" bar. I've only broken that once! I may have started it a little tight, but not where I couldn't pull up and get a normal amount of stretch. It just seems to pull the drive links right apart with no warning.

This degree of stretch appears to be a case of too many cutters versus too much torque at the sprocket. Did you try it with a skip chain setup?

It could be diagnostic if you could post a picture of the actual broken chain.

I realize the following is a simplified diagnosis but I measured the weakest point on an 0.050" low profile chain (its on the drive link) compared to a normal profile 0.05" chain, and the low profile has ~20% less metal at that cross section. Interestingly (or perhaps as to be expected) the width of the cutters on LP is smaller than NP by ~20%, so theoretically these should cancel but the counter force by the cutters against the drive force at the sprocket is also affected by the number of cutters slicing through wood - if there are too many the chain will not cope. That's why a skip chain setup might work OK up to a point.

Using a 0.058" chain automatically increases the amount of metal by at least 8/50ths or 16% more again and an 0.063" has at least 10% more again (it's actually more that than - these are minima).

I have never tried the water-cooling method that you guys are discussing; this might change the stretch aspect, but I sure as heck wouldn't use it without chaps on, and without being absolutely certain that it couldn't hit me or others around the mill. every time it happened, it came to an instant dead stop, but the broken end whipped around; I'm relatively certain it always broke on the top (noncutting) side of the bar & whipped out away from me, but I'm just not 100% positive.

Could you just make sure you have a video running next time you use it

I don't think water cooling will do much. My guess would be the stretch happens because there is just not enough metal holding the links together.

Edit: FWIW, I thought I should add that I am using canola oil instead of petro based oil, but I haven't noticed any extra wear at all on my bars or anything. It costs me less than bar oil, is completely environmentally safe, I can use the sawdust right in the garden, smells a LOT less than petro oil, is viscous at a lower temperature than petro, etc. It also doesn't seem to be any less effective at staying on the bar, surprisingly. I put an aux. oiler on it for longer bars, but it didn't oil enough with regular oil either. I suppose you could put something like lucasoil stabilizer in it as a tackifier, but it works fine for my needs. May be different with those aussie hardwoods. I DO use petro oil in the other saws, as I don't use them enough to not be afraid about biodegradation gumming up the oil pump.

I've used canola in an Aux oiler on Aussie hardwoords and it is OK but I have always used brand oil on the CS itself for the same reason you give. I don't mind having to pull the aux oiler line apart but the thought of doing that to an oil pump doesn't thrill me.

Cheers

 

[Matildasmate]

Railomatic use's .325 on 50" bar

Railomatic use's .325 on 50" bar with an 880 ,I see Aggie also use's .325 on some bar's , not sure what length though . I have to say that the water cooling work's exstremly well , I also beleive it make's a difference to chain stretch , but not in the normal way , as in , not the same as when the chain get's blunt and you just push on , the stretch I am talking about is actually just the expansion of the chain from heat , which change's the length , once it call's down the chain normaly return's to normal length , but with water cooling chain stay's same length , because it is alway's cool . I have been using the water cooling method over the last couple of week's cutting up some old pine log's , I am very very pleased with the result's . Cheer's MM

 

[BobL]

Railomatic use's .325 on 50" bar with an 880 ,I see Aggie also use's .325 on some bar's , not sure what length though . I have to say that the water cooling work's exstremly well , I also beleive it make's a difference to chain stretch , but not in the normal way , as in , not the same as when the chain get's blunt and you just push on , the stretch I am talking about is actually just the expansion of the chain from heat , which change's the length , once it call's down the chain normaly return's to normal length , but with water cooling chain stay's same length , because it is alway's cool . I have been using the water cooling method over the last couple of week's cutting up some old pine log's , I am very very pleased with the result's . Cheer's MM

Humm , , , Intuitively I find that hard to believe MM, but I could be persuaded otherwise. How hot do you think the chain gets without water cooling under normal operation? 200oC - 300oC or more ? I seriously doubt it would get too much above 250oC (I will measure it next time I'm milling) otherwise it would start to char the wood!

Using a coefficient of linear expansion for steel of 0.000011 /oC a chain, on a 42" (1066 mm) bar the chain will expand by 4.6 mm for a temp rise of 200oC ! Crikey - that's a lot!

If the chain were to expand in length by ~5 mm overall on a 1066mm this equates to the chain lifting of the bar by - nah that's gonna get messy and involve a few hyperbolic trigonometrics - thats for my day job. Well I'd guess it's in the ball park relative to what I have seen! And MM is right - you don't see this sort of stretch with water cooling.

 

[Matildasmate]

Humm , , , Intuitively I find that hard to believe MM, but I could be persuaded otherwise. How hot do you think the chain gets without water cooling under normal operation? 200oC - 300oC or more ? I seriously doubt it would get too much above 250oC (I will measure it next time I'm milling) otherwise it would start to char the wood!

Using a coefficient of linear expansion for steel of 0.000011 /oC a chain, on a 42" (1066 mm) bar the chain will expand by 4.6 mm for a temp rise of 200oC ! Crikey - that's a lot!

If the chain were to expand in length by ~5 mm overall on a 1066mm this equates to the chain lifting of the bar by - nah that's gonna get messy and involve a few hyperbolic trigonometrics - thats for my day job. Well I'd guess it's in the ball park relative to what I have seen! And MM is right - you don't see this sort of stretch with water cooling.

So what was your conclusion Bob , I think this got a bit messy mate . :newbie: Cheer's MM .......I had another read Bob and the penny drop's . Ah ha I see , it must be getting late