Climbing Techniques

[Tree Machine]

Ahhh, I see your point clearly, 7D


When I was pointing out the identical nature of a spinning reel with the shotline winder, though I failed to point it out, I was referring specifically to how the line is deployed.


You're 100% correct in catching this.

Upgraded analogy: If the shotline winder were a fishing reel, it would be spinning reel casting out, and a bait-casting reel reeling in in. More accurate? I appreciate you pointing this out. Cheers to you.

 

[pdqdl]

Well...That was my point to begin with when I asked the question.

I think the reason you don't have twists piling up on the line is because you may be pushing them down the line to the free end when you clamp it between your thighs for additional friction.

When I watched the video posted with that device at Sherrill, I immediately assumed that they were attempting to clear the twists as well as control the tension. If it works well, stick with it!

 

[Tree Machine]

Well...That was my point to begin with when I asked the question.

It was a good question.

I think the reason you don't have twists piling up on the line is because you may be pushing them down the line to the free end when you clamp it between your thighs for additional friction.

It's a reasonable thought, though, if this were true, it would show itself as a piling up of twists on the ground by the time you get almost all the line on the reel. But this doesn't happen. The bag un-rotates on it's way down, naturally. You can also let the bag hang a few feet off the ground, remove it, and the weightless line will relax.

I really don't ever have to do this. Don't generally have to think about anything but fire (or throw) the shot, set the rope, reel in like a madman. Some twist in the line doesn't affect performance. Too much twist in the line would, but for whatever reason it just doesn't get to that point (the point of hockles).


When you're winding in line, the tension you put on with the clamping of your thighs is really minimal, just enough to keep the line taught and straight. You can also throw the shotbag/line across the lawn and reel it in as the bag bounces across the lawn. This is almost too much tension. It takes very little tension. When you're reeling in you should feel very little resistance at the reel. You shouldn't have to crank with ANY sort of force, just fast. You can reel in slowly, but fast is one of the advantages.

 

[Tree Machine]

When I watched the video posted with that device at Sherrill, I immediately assumed that they were attempting to clear the twists as well as control the tension.

Not sure what device you're referring to, not the shotline winder. The shotline winder isn't offered through Sherrill. There are a limited number of these available, total of 300 worldwide, exclusively through treestuff.com .

IF twists were pushed downstream and pile up, the result, eventually would be hockles. If this were to happen, you would feel hockle coming through your clamped thighs. Stop, take a second, pull the hockle, keep winding.

Next shot let the bag hang suspended for a few seconds before it hits ground.
Or, remove the rope after the set. Walk the reel back to the truck, wind up the line with no shotbag on it.

It's really a user-friendly device. So much so that it doesn't come with instructions. These ARE the instructions. You learn about it in the threads, order one from treestuff and when you get it, you go to work.

If you already have a cube, that's great. Getting a winder allows you to test their performances side-by-side for a first-hand, experience-based assessment. If you get a bag stuck in the tree, you have a back-up system to keep your ropesetting duties in forward motion.

 

[pdqdl]

Not sure what device you're referring to, not the shotline winder. The shotline winder isn't offered through Sherrill. There are a limited number of these available, total of 300 worldwide, exclusively through treestuff.com ....

Oops. Y'er probably right about that. I guess I was just running on memory.

That's a bit scary! I can't rely on myself anymore ??


Thanks for clarifying the twisty-line concept. I hope you can understand where I would have gotten the idea from. Twists in climbing rope are one of the biggest problems, and without at least using a "cube", a throwline is usually a nightmare. So I tend to be cautious.

 

[Tree Machine]

As well, you should be.

I've been very cautious about bringing the shotline winder to production.
I had shared it now and then over the last, well, since Arboristsite has existed, around 10 years.

At first, the winder worked OK, but the high-tech shotlines hadn't been invented yet. We were still in the polypropylene age, monster-thick line with low breaking strength. The BigShot was released shortly after that.

Here is a picture of the very first reel.

Here it is after I ran over it with the truck and attempted a duct tape fix.

My very first picture of the new BigShot, 1998 or '9 I think.

 

[Tree Machine]

I won't feed you any mis-truths on this device. I have used it thousands, possibly tens of thousands of times, many, many different shotline bags,

different lines,

Different size bases, different reels comparing one to another

different ways of winding,

different reels, like this one that failed completely,

If twisting was a problem, I would have known that long, long ago and would be using the only other alternative, a cube.

This thing has gone through pretty extensive testing and refinement over the last decade.

I wasn't going to release it until I was absolutely sure it would work consistently and predictably.

Last year I succumbed to forum pressure and began producing some for use by others. The feedback was great. I took out a loan and bought a pickup truck load of reels and 20,000 feet of shotline, refined the design even further, decided 200 feet of line was more advantageous then 180, and today it is available from Treestuff.com for a limited time.

 

[Tree Machine]

And here is what it looks like, more or less, today.

Actually, the current model has a double-thick base for a better 'flywheel effect.' It also has two swivels for winding and a winder handle so you can try a couple different ways of reeling in.

The bases are held together with both a high-tech adhesive-sealant and 8 fasteners, like the one on the right.

 

[Tree Machine]

I apologize terribly for the extended de-rail of this thread, but with these last three posts, and pictures, I have summed up the entire history, up to the current day.


Anyone remember where we left off regarding climbing techniques?

 

[kevin bingham]

Here is a version of twin line climbing. what do you think about this TM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtNLhGDXEbc&feature=player_embedded

 

[pdqdl]

Correct me if I'm wrong, tree machine. Doesn't success at your doubled line technique depend on getting an isolated branch?

I can see all the merits of the plan, and the video posted by Kevin was pretty neat too, but I just don't see very many opportunities for isolating a single branch.

When I started to upgrade my old-school ways, I bought a two ring friction saver with a grand plan to start trying out some new stuff. I quickly realized, however, that most of the trees that I see are either impractical to isolate a branch on, or too low to appreciate throwing into the tree to begin with.

How do you manage your branch isolation, in order to use both lines parallel?

 

[Tree Machine]

Use your hand and your wrist. Pull the line. Swing and drop.
Isolating the line is one of the funnest things I do. Kinda difficult to explain in words, though.

It pays to get good at it. If I can't get it within a minute I let it drop and go SRT.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Use your hand and your wrist. Pull the line. Swing and drop.
Isolating the line is one of the funnest things I do. Kinda difficult to explain in words, though.

It pays to get good at it. If I can't get it within a minute I let it drop and go SRT.

So why not go SRT in the fisrt place unless you like messing around?
Jeff

 

[Tree Machine]

I like to use SRT when it serves a greater advantage, like an ace in the pocket. I have a plan B.

I could go over the advantages of twin line again, but that would be repeating former posts.



Yesterday's job is a good example. Heavy leaner, the trunk is lying inches from the cable line and electric line. After setting the rope into the crown side of the lines, I'm ready to go up. If I wanted to go SRT, if I anchor to the lower trunk, the tension in the climbing line could pull the rope up into the wires. If I throw the tail of the line over the wires and then anchor to the base, any slack in the line could allow the climb line to droop into the wires. Unusual example, but it happens.

I could SRT that by installing a biner a-on a butterfly once the shotline/rope reaches the tie in point, clip the biner around the shotline and pull the shotline, and the climbing line back down through the biner until it chokers up top, then use that leg. But what you would have now is two parallel lines, and you are going to use one of them.

That may make sense if you have a single ascender, but I work with duals. Options for an easier ascent are right there, anchoring to the trunk is not necessary. With a dual ascender you have the option, before each and every ascent, to choose, in the moment, which rope technique will serve you a greater advantage. SRT is a bit more technically demanding, and some days I choose SRT just because I want some additional challenge.

But 9 times out of ten, I'm going to take the easier method because tree work is difficult enough on its own without my making it more difficult than need be.

 

[Tree Machine]

Isolating the tie-in and tracing the shotline back down parallel is definitely not a difficult moment in my day. It's actually a moment i enjoy very much and look forward to. Learn to get the bag to swing, and the rest is pretty much natural.


Each an every one of you can trace a line back down. You just have to believe you can, and you will. It is literally that simple. You move your wrist, you bend your elbow. You concentrate and focus for the next 60 seconds and somewhere in that time you get the shotbag back down and over whatever obstacles on the way down.

60 seconds, and a rope is being clipped onto the shotline and pulled back up and over. Now, I like to crank this out, thirty seconds. Rope, up, over.

Unclip your set rope, clip the shotbag back onto the shotline, toss it to the ground, pick up the shotreel, step over the line, squeeze between knees or thighs, 4 or 5 seconds,
wind like a madman for up to 15 seconds
Thread the bag around and through the reel, 2 seconds. You are done and ready to climb.

The key is to drain the shots, or hit it on two. Seriously, set the bar high on this, if you want to extract maximum value out of it. If you can ace or deuce 4 out of every 5 trees you throw or bigshot into, you are of maximum value to yourself. If you're 5 or 10 minutes, you suck really bad.

It is of great benefit to the climber to nail down this skill set and get the best tools possible to do this. That's called a bigshot, a reel and a cube. Low cost of entry into that discipline, eh? Oh, and you need a fiberglass pole for the BigShot, another $30 bucks.

$200 Treestuff.com special + a $75 cube, you are in. http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=1563. That's a bargain. You can spend more than that on a blender.

 

[Tree Machine]

Can we get back to "Climbing Techniques"?

 

[the Aerialist]

I'm trying this out

Can we get back to "Climbing Techniques"?

As a LockJack user for the past couple of years I just bought a Unicender to try out. Here is how I have it rigged up:

The blue Prussic cord is used with a Kong "duck" rope grab to adjust the distance from the Unicender to get a longer pull on ascents. The yellow Kong "futura" single handed ascender replaces the rather bulky dual ascender.

Comments?

 

[treeslayer]

As a LockJack user for the past couple of years I just bought a Unicender to try out. Here is how I have it rigged up:

The blue Prussic cord is used with a Kong "duck" rope grab to adjust the distance from the Unicender to get a longer pull on ascents. The yellow Kong "futura" single handed ascender replaces the rather bulky dual ascender.

Comments?

looks EXPENSIVE. and rather complicated. I'm way behind, but get it done and look good doing it.:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[the Aerialist]

looks Complicated; works easy

Complicated rigging for simplicity of operation. Just pull on the tail of the rope and the Unicender captures your progress. If spike-less I use a pantin or foot stirrup to assist.

 

[Tree Machine]

I have to be critical of my own system, so will be of others.

Yours is a 2:1 system, with the complete set of disadvantages pointed out in past pages that apply to 2:1 systems in general.

I've seen complicated, multi-piece systems, but yours may be a new champion in the arena of sheer number of pieces within a single system.

I don't doubt this system works well and does what you want it to do, and compared to a friction hitch system your performance may be better, but you are still limited in the sense of the limitations imposed by a 2:1 system + the time costs of setting and retrieving the friction saver + the time costs just setting up the system prior to the ascent and breakdown after descent.

The actual function of the system may be simple and uncomplicated to use. However, the overall set-up, and the sheer number of individual pieces makes this rather complicated in an overall sense.

The Futura, allowing you to get a longer pull, still flies in the face of a 1:1 system where your 'pull' is half that of a 2:1 system to begin with. You still hoist yourself with twice the motion, as opposed to propelling yourself upward with half the motion.

A positive I note is very little loss of purchase in your system, as you would have with a collapse/elongation of a hitch. Clean.

Just pull on the tail of the rope and the Unicender captures your progress.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Your major losses (besides the 2:1 issue) would be saddle sit-back losses, but that's another subject.

The yellow Kong "futura" single handed ascender replaces the rather bulky dual ascender.

The Futura replaces a larger single ascender. In this system, you would not be using a dual ascender. If you had a dual ascender, you would not be using this system. You don't specify a dual handled dual ascender or a single handled dual ascender, the former being quite a bit bulkier than the latter.

One of the goals that's been proposed is creating a system that will allow you to climb 1:1 SRT, 1:1 twin or 2:1 doubled. Yours is set up to do 2:1 doubled only.

For what it IS, your deserves applause. For what it DOES, it gets thrown on the stack of the many dozens of setups already out there for 2:1 systems. I would rate yours as new school 2:1, but 2:1 nonetheless. The advantages appear to be somewhat over that of a friction hitch setup, but enough gain, apparently, that you've gone to the extra effort of setting up "Complicated rigging for simplicity of operation." I believe there can be simple rigging with simplicity of operation, one that allows all three rope techniques to be incorporated at will.

I very much appreciate the effort invested in creating this, and it looks like it would be smooth. I have not seen a setup quite like this, kudos to you for pushing the creative envelope, and thank you for sharing.