windthrown
361 Junkie
On the CB, 2 sections of stack are supplied with their boilers. You can go higher, but that takes a guy wire for support. I would imagine that WM has the same option.
Considering an OWB
- Thread starter curdy
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On the CB, 2 sections of stack are supplied with their boilers. You can go higher, but that takes a guy wire for support. I would imagine that WM has the same option.
curdy
ArboristSite Operative
Thanks for the info!
For some reason it seems to ring in my head that he said he was using anti-freeze...not for the reason of keeping it above freezing, but for the anti-corrosion properties. If that is in fact what he did, is that a bad thing? Seems to me from the way he talked he took care of it. He mentioned that he didn't use it for domestic during the warmer months so he'd drain it and actually sit there with a hair dryer for a couple of hours to make sure it was dried out. Wouldn't have been my first choice of methods, but I guess it worked for him.
Given the location, I'm thinking that raising the stack is my best bet. It would be placed where its mostly out of site from the rest of the house too.
For some reason it seems to ring in my head that he said he was using anti-freeze...not for the reason of keeping it above freezing, but for the anti-corrosion properties. If that is in fact what he did, is that a bad thing? Seems to me from the way he talked he took care of it. He mentioned that he didn't use it for domestic during the warmer months so he'd drain it and actually sit there with a hair dryer for a couple of hours to make sure it was dried out. Wouldn't have been my first choice of methods, but I guess it worked for him.
Given the location, I'm thinking that raising the stack is my best bet. It would be placed where its mostly out of site from the rest of the house too.
Redwood123
ArboristSite Lurker
Antifreeze
I think the solution that is used is a glycol mixture that is 45% to the water.
Not only is this very expensive but it requires around 15 % more heat to transfer the same amount of BTU to your home.
The corrosion protection that you can purchase is very cheap and does not require but only a small amout.
I don't think I like the idea of draining the stove in the off season.
The stove could still condensate but there would be no protection like you would have with the water capacity at full. IMO
I think the solution that is used is a glycol mixture that is 45% to the water.
Not only is this very expensive but it requires around 15 % more heat to transfer the same amount of BTU to your home.
The corrosion protection that you can purchase is very cheap and does not require but only a small amout.
I don't think I like the idea of draining the stove in the off season.
The stove could still condensate but there would be no protection like you would have with the water capacity at full. IMO
Redwood123
ArboristSite Lurker
Also it is NOT car antifreeze that is used
Redwood123
ArboristSite Lurker
Temp monitor
Here,s how I monitor the temp from in the house.
I purchased a control from a company called TEKMAR, It is a boiler control so for the most part it meets the needs of my OWB.
I have installed a sensor into what is called a well on the stove.(The well is just a copper tube,closed on one end and it attaches to a 3/4 or 1/2 inch pipe fitting) I also installed an outdoor temp sensor on the outside of my stove enclosure.
I ran wire to the house(underground)to an electrical box in the basement.
A transformer and a relay is installed in the box to operate the control and the fan(draft inducer) on the OWB
In my living room I installed the controller and from there I can see the water temp and I can also see if the blower is running on the stove as well as monitor the outdoor temp.
The controller is programmable so it can be set to reach a certain temp based on the outdoor temp reading.
It also has a minimum temp setting.
This allows the stove to coast when it is warmer during the day and raises the temp when it gets colder at night. The biggest savings from this is in fall and spring when the outside temps swing 20-30 degrees.
I also have a water level sensor that operates off continuity (24volt) and this has a red LED and a green LED to indicate "good or bad" water level.
These lEd lights can be install in alsmost any thermostat so all you see is the lights.
I'm sure if you do some checking Tekmar may also have a less expensive model that just does the temp readout.
Here,s how I monitor the temp from in the house.
I purchased a control from a company called TEKMAR, It is a boiler control so for the most part it meets the needs of my OWB.
I have installed a sensor into what is called a well on the stove.(The well is just a copper tube,closed on one end and it attaches to a 3/4 or 1/2 inch pipe fitting) I also installed an outdoor temp sensor on the outside of my stove enclosure.
I ran wire to the house(underground)to an electrical box in the basement.
A transformer and a relay is installed in the box to operate the control and the fan(draft inducer) on the OWB
In my living room I installed the controller and from there I can see the water temp and I can also see if the blower is running on the stove as well as monitor the outdoor temp.
The controller is programmable so it can be set to reach a certain temp based on the outdoor temp reading.
It also has a minimum temp setting.
This allows the stove to coast when it is warmer during the day and raises the temp when it gets colder at night. The biggest savings from this is in fall and spring when the outside temps swing 20-30 degrees.
I also have a water level sensor that operates off continuity (24volt) and this has a red LED and a green LED to indicate "good or bad" water level.
These lEd lights can be install in alsmost any thermostat so all you see is the lights.
I'm sure if you do some checking Tekmar may also have a less expensive model that just does the temp readout.
Redwood123
ArboristSite Lurker
Tekmar
I just checked on the Tekmar and they make several options for doing this even if you only want to monitor the water temp.
Check @ Pexsupply.com
I just checked on the Tekmar and they make several options for doing this even if you only want to monitor the water temp.
Check @ Pexsupply.com
HUSKYMAN
Addicted to ArboristSite
See if you can get the used unit for $2500, this way if you have to buy a new blower motor or control unit you are covered.
As far as location, put it next to wherever you are going to be storing your wood. You do not want to have to cut it, stack it, unstack it, move it 100 yards to load your boiler. Also make sure its downwind from the house according to the normal prevailing wind in your area. The WM doesn't put out much smoke when running correctly, but you dont want it surrounding your house on a day with little wind.
I had to pay a lot for the 175' feet of insulated line for my stove but now its over on the other side of my barn right next to my seasoned wood and I can't even tell its there.
As far as location, put it next to wherever you are going to be storing your wood. You do not want to have to cut it, stack it, unstack it, move it 100 yards to load your boiler. Also make sure its downwind from the house according to the normal prevailing wind in your area. The WM doesn't put out much smoke when running correctly, but you dont want it surrounding your house on a day with little wind.
I had to pay a lot for the 175' feet of insulated line for my stove but now its over on the other side of my barn right next to my seasoned wood and I can't even tell its there.
curdy
ArboristSite Operative
$2500 would be great, but considering the guy is currently asking over $4000, that may not be in the cards. At this point all I've told him was that I don't think I'd consider buying it for more than $3000. I like to use the 1/2 new price and then go down from there based on condition. Figuring I'd be looking at roughly $6000 for a new one, I
thought $3000 was a good starting point. Then I hope to have the tech go out and see it and report back before I head down there and finalize any negotiations.
I understand he's waiting to see if there's any takers at the asking price. He was very considerate to my thoughts on $3000 and we should be talking later this week to see what he thinks.
I'm going to take some measurements of the back of the house and put them in SketchUp. That way I can post a picture of my proposed area and get tips on it location. I was hoping to get to that yesterday.
curdy
ArboristSite Operative
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150203709347&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005
Item number: 150203709347
Anyone seen this on ebay? 0 feedback seller, and not a lot of info listed. I sent the guy questions twice and haven't heard back. Asked where he got it from, why he was selling it, and if the warranty from the factory would be transferable.
Needless to say, I haven't bid. Too bad too, I'd really consider this.
Item number: 150203709347
Anyone seen this on ebay? 0 feedback seller, and not a lot of info listed. I sent the guy questions twice and haven't heard back. Asked where he got it from, why he was selling it, and if the warranty from the factory would be transferable.
Needless to say, I haven't bid. Too bad too, I'd really consider this.
Id think twice about the stainless. Check with anybody that knows about stainless, unless the anealing process in the welds and the main portion arent done correctly have fun. I dont know much about OWB but I do know metal.
hydro2
ArboristSite Operative
I have a Hardy that I heat two home with. Going on my 5th year and just love it.
curdy
ArboristSite Operative
There's a guy in upstate NY with an overstock of Pacific Western OWB. He has them posted on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250207136175&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
Does this seem like a decent deal to anyone?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250207136175&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
Does this seem like a decent deal to anyone?
Husky137
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'd agree. Forgo the stainless. All of the stove dealers I talked to said it was a waste of money.
In my experience, the best way to get a more efficient OWB is how you use it. I found that when I put in programmable thermostats it made a HUGE difference. What I also do is just put in enough wood to keep the stove hot until I am going to check it next time. I usually check it twice a day, in the morning before work and in the evening after supper. I have found that I have used less wood with this also. Granted, this is in south central Illinois and the winters are not sever, please check your local listings for current temperatures and conditions.
Sam
Sam
curdy
ArboristSite Operative
I know, I can't go on very much that dealers say. I was recently at the PA Farm Show and very much LESS than impressed by the representatives running the tables for a couple of them. ANYTIME a sales guy puts down a competitor, I know there's something to be looked into.
That's a whole different topic though.
As far as a 36 hr burn, yeah, maybe there are some coals left buried in there, but I can't imagine its hot enough to heat much.
I had a 2' diameter oak stump that was hollowed out in my yard maybe 2' tall. I filled it with nice dry stuff and lit it. I feed it a couple of times and the roots were still glowing orange several days later...even through a rain, it was nuts! Not real relevant to the subject, but still pretty cool.
That's a whole different topic though.
As far as a 36 hr burn, yeah, maybe there are some coals left buried in there, but I can't imagine its hot enough to heat much.
I had a 2' diameter oak stump that was hollowed out in my yard maybe 2' tall. I filled it with nice dry stuff and lit it. I feed it a couple of times and the roots were still glowing orange several days later...even through a rain, it was nuts! Not real relevant to the subject, but still pretty cool.
windthrown
361 Junkie
Stump fires can last a long long time, and run thorugh the roots. I set a fire here last march on a field, and it caught an underground root and ran back to an old doug fir stump. Next time I was up there, there was a 20 ft blaze going as the stump was burning. I had to fill the 500 gallon truck tank with water and go up and put the fire down... learned later from some locals that stump and roots can smolder for months underground. So I do not burn stumps in the spring here any more, to ignite things here in summer. I only set them in the fall, as we have a long and wet rainey season here (43" so far since September this year).
As for stainless OWBs, several factors are bad about them. Our dealer talked us out of it, even though he could make $1000 more selling them. Stainless does not conduct heat as well as carbon steel. Stainless also has to be welded just right, and cool (shrink) without cracking. It tends to be brittle. It is far harder to fix if it does crack. Also if you take care of your boiler water with anti-corrosion and replace it every 3 years, it will not rust out from the water side. On the firebox side, water pockets can be a problem if you do not scrape down the side when creosote builds up, or scrape the ash pan regularly. I researched creosote some years ago and found that the corrosion factor for that on steel is very low and mild. Ashes themselves are also non-corrosive. Either mixed with water and you may get problems. During the off-season can also be a problem if you do not cap your stack and you get rain water in there.
As for buying OWBs on Ebay, I would completely avoid that. Never buy from a zero sales Ebay lister, unless it is a $5 item. They have no reputation to uphold, they have no feedback to establish integrity. Many times they are really someone with bad Ebay feedback that just dropped off of Ebay and re-signed with a new listing name. There are many many many scam artists out there, and some real junk OWBs sold on Ebay that are fly-by-night designs. Same with chainsaws... or anything mechanical that takes maintenance. Like with chaisaws, you are probably better off buying an OWB that is new.
As for stainless OWBs, several factors are bad about them. Our dealer talked us out of it, even though he could make $1000 more selling them. Stainless does not conduct heat as well as carbon steel. Stainless also has to be welded just right, and cool (shrink) without cracking. It tends to be brittle. It is far harder to fix if it does crack. Also if you take care of your boiler water with anti-corrosion and replace it every 3 years, it will not rust out from the water side. On the firebox side, water pockets can be a problem if you do not scrape down the side when creosote builds up, or scrape the ash pan regularly. I researched creosote some years ago and found that the corrosion factor for that on steel is very low and mild. Ashes themselves are also non-corrosive. Either mixed with water and you may get problems. During the off-season can also be a problem if you do not cap your stack and you get rain water in there.
As for buying OWBs on Ebay, I would completely avoid that. Never buy from a zero sales Ebay lister, unless it is a $5 item. They have no reputation to uphold, they have no feedback to establish integrity. Many times they are really someone with bad Ebay feedback that just dropped off of Ebay and re-signed with a new listing name. There are many many many scam artists out there, and some real junk OWBs sold on Ebay that are fly-by-night designs. Same with chainsaws... or anything mechanical that takes maintenance. Like with chaisaws, you are probably better off buying an OWB that is new.
windthrown
361 Junkie
I do not know about more efficient OWBs hitting the market. CB is coming out with a new EPA certicfied OWB, but it will not be much more efficient. The thing that stands out on these units is the short chimney on them. They are WAY too low. The stack should be at least 4' taller... to extend above the roofline of nearby house or dwellings. And of course there is no way that they are going to get a 36 hour burn time as pointed out, or heat a 6,000 sq.ft. dwelling.
I read about these units when I was shopping for our OWB. I think they are or were made in Canada... can't recall off the top of my head though. Seems odd also that he quotes stainless steel (with titanium), and the need for the use of corrosion inhibitor. Contradiction there....
Too many things raising flags on this one.
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beerman6
Addicted to ArboristSite
The "worry about burning your house down" is worth a bit of extra wood to me.
and the "36 hour burn time"...Hell I've had 72 hour burns without loading anymore wood,read the small print...depends on what type of wood,size location of house,outside temp and how well it's insulated.
To each his own.
Windthrown,was the Canadian OWB maker,Global Hydronics?
and the "36 hour burn time"...Hell I've had 72 hour burns without loading anymore wood,read the small print...depends on what type of wood,size location of house,outside temp and how well it's insulated.
To each his own.
Windthrown,was the Canadian OWB maker,Global Hydronics?
beerman6
Addicted to ArboristSite
I aint gonna argue,and I sure as hell aint gotta reason to lie.Strange winter 50 degree days,I'll check it twice a day,but I aint throwin any wood in er.
OWB vs Inside
I don't know who you were talking to about loading an outdoor wood burner 3 times a day but he either lives in Antartica, has no windows in his house (or insulation) or is trying to heat an airport hanger with a stove that is too small. I had an indoor stove for 20 years. When I built a new house I knew what I wanted and that was an OWB. I would rather pay for propane than go back to throwing wood in my house and running up and down the stairs all the time. I think you would have to look a long time for anyone who would say they wanted to go back inside. Just my opinion.:greenchainsaw:
I don't know who you were talking to about loading an outdoor wood burner 3 times a day but he either lives in Antartica, has no windows in his house (or insulation) or is trying to heat an airport hanger with a stove that is too small. I had an indoor stove for 20 years. When I built a new house I knew what I wanted and that was an OWB. I would rather pay for propane than go back to throwing wood in my house and running up and down the stairs all the time. I think you would have to look a long time for anyone who would say they wanted to go back inside. Just my opinion.:greenchainsaw:
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