Contract Climbing

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
treemachine, exactly why I like to be the boss. spent my first 4 years solo or with my brother. worked when we wanted and not during hunting season

now I have two employees and I got to work mon-fri, and my shroom picking and fishing is aready falling off
I told my lead guy if he wanted fulltime work, he'd have to come snapping turtle hunting with me. since I sell them, I can pay him

he's from Fort Wayne, talks about the "lakes" area all the time
where are you from?
 
that's where I'm at now. drinking coffe, checking out a coulpe of forums and writing my outdoor column for the newspaper.

my guys should be starting at 7:30am, I show up about 9:00am
Friday's always a late start for me
 
Like the thread opener asks, what's the best way to approach the business (paraphrase).

I've been able to do contract, have employees and run my business as a solo operation. Mostly, especially in the last 7 or 8 years it's been solo. That decision was part numbers and part lifestyle choice.

Lifestyle: Elizabeth and I don't have kids. We're both self-employed. We like to travel. When I DO work, it's often right up until evening, and like I say, getting out in the morning is sort of a 'whenever'. I could go on and on about the joys of the freedom of working in an employee-optional system, but I really don't recommend it for most. Now, I'm speaking to the noobs here: Probably a better route would be to have an employee, and a light dusting of solo jobs, simpler ones, for when employee is not available, but you're working. You could have two employees, but now you're pinned to the wall to keep jobs on the books. This however, will have it's issues. The noobs are really wanting to develop a plan of intent, an approach to their climbing career, asking of our experiences so they can seamlessly weave their own.

Numbers: An employee is supposed to relieve you of some of the work on a jobsite, and make you more money than he's costing you. Employee costs start with wages, but ripple outward to things like his insurances, workman's comp, employee taxes, the paperwork, record-keeping, bonus pay, buying him lunch when he shows up without, having to purchase and keep extra PPE. You assume the risk of his injuries on a jobsite; if he gets hurt, it might not be your fault, but it is, ultimately, your responsibility. Being a taxi driver, a banker, a counselor, increased gear and tool maintenence. Then there's the days when he shows up late, you wait. Out doing estimates and he sits, getting paid and your income flows backwards, days when he calls in wanting the day off and your day is scheduled around having help, days when he's in a funk, and you're on a mission of completion. Then there's the days you want off and he's therefore stuck for the day without work or pay. Communication eats a lot of productive time. Many guys will take a break when they need one, and that's fine, but they'll also be compelled to stop working every time YOU stop working. Cigarette smokers have a need to break more frequently, otherwise, after enough time, they can get rather crabby. Some guys are simply not motivated and self-directed and need constant instruction. I'm not so good at that after the first week.

When you're the boss, employees depend on you for a lot more than just a paycheck, and you have to either assume that extra weight, or fire them. I hate firing a guy, even if he's not working out. Over time and experience, I found having an employee generally gets me through more work in a day, but I come home with equal or less pay. That is why I prefer to just work alone. Same pay, less stress, less responsibilities, less time and work outside of work. Overall simpler logistics.

Is that enough? Every tree operation is going to be different. Solo operations are definitely not the norm, and I would dissuade noobs starting out solo, for safety reasons more than anything, but technically you should be rather competent and a good problem solver.

I'll close by saying I have had groundguys that I'd do about anything to have them back.
 
Tree Machine I am curious. I understand the cons to having a couple of guys depending on you work work and the cost of providing it. How do you tie off limbs, lower them down, and untie the limb for the next cut. I love tree work for the money and the freedom but the employee thing does have some bite to it. I would much rather come and go to work and hunting at will. Could be a better father. How is it done. Can you explan and give me a mental picture?
 
I just got back from an Arbor master seminar today and was encouraged after talking with the instructor about this side of the business. I think I'm going to pursue developing this more so than doing solely my own jobs. I just bought a truck and chipper last December, but I'm seeing the writing on the wall. I just can't see spending as much energy, time, and money on these machines as I have been. Mostly the chipper. I've recently been hiring a climber on a per job basis, so I can be on the ground to babysit this beat up chipper and to dump chips when needed. This is bogus. I didn't go off on my own so I could drag brush and replace bearings on Sundays. I just want to climb trees.

So how do the rest of you handle the money? Do you bill hourly, have a day rate, or do you estimate the job beforehand?
 
Until recently 85% of my business was contract climbing. The overall pay is less, but so are the headaches.

My niche is being able to show up as a groundie, supervisor, climber, etc. as the job demands. Very rarely do any of these guys say "take it down this way", or "prune only these limbs in the crown cleaning". They know that my gear and techniques are top-notch and that I'll treat each job as if it were my own.

As for rates it depends on the job. I usually won't show up for less than $200 a day for a combo of climbing and groundwork when I get out of the tree. If I start using my saws and rigging the price jumps to a minimum of $300.

The biggest problem I have is when I'm called to come climb and all I end up doing is groundwork. My rate doesn't change and some of the guys have a hard time with that. One company advertised that they wanted a production climber, but really just wanted another general laborer. When I told them about my minimum rate they laughed and said they don't pay themselves that much on a day. Whatever. I even offered to work at their rate for a few days to let my work speak for itself, but they said no-thanks.

I wouldn't even think about contract work until getting a few years experience. There's more to it than just climbing.

TT
 
basnighttrees said:
Tree Machine I am curious. How do you tie off limbs, lower them down, and untie the limb for the next cut. How is it done. Can you explan and give me a mental picture?
Not in this thread. We be talkin contract climbing here. Otherwise, I'd love to.
 
basnighttrees said:
I am doing contract for one co. m-f and another on saturday. I do my own jobs when they come up. I am not trying to advertize cuz I don't have the equipment to haul away. I was charging 200. per day, but after 3 saws put me down in the same week it was time to raise the bar. I am going to 250 per day and I bring my own rigging equip, rakes, log dolly, wheel bowwer, ropes, etc. Does anybody think this is too low?

if your quick its too low,if your good but slow on t/ds its ok money
 
Tree Machine said:
That pretty much summs up why I don't have employees. That, and I'm not very responsible managing other people. Also, I'm not so consistent on getting out in the morning, maybe because I have my cup of Joe with Arboristsite, and the next thing I know it's 10:30 or 11. My priorities are mebbe screwed up.

If I had a ground guy I'd have to be consistent and reliable. I like to take nice days off sometimes with Elizabeth, and I thoroughly like to work when the weather's crappy. This confuses employees.

The last guy I hired, I made him go out with me, first day, whitewater canoeing. Told him if we were going to do treework together, I had to know if he could paddle a watercraft in dangerous current. He became apprentice material and is now out doing his own business.

If I hired someone today, we'd likely spend the next couple days in the woods hunting morels. I'm getting really complacent. With a helper, I'd have to be, well, like a boss :laugh:



im much the same t/m just be honest when hiring!youll find plenty of tree guys weating part time get in and get out gigs
 
I contract climb for 4 local companies on and off. Its great as you can see other guys set up and ways of doing things and pick up on some great tricks that you can use to save you money and avoid ways that just cause trouble.
Contract climbing taught be alot, I usually charge about 40 and hour and bring my own saws, harness, ropes and if they ask nice, my chainsaw winch.
Problem is that generally the jobs arent walks in the park.
 
Timber McPherson, I don't think you have a flat spot in your city. Slopes and incline everywhere. That adds so much to the logistics of the cleanup. I'd think you would have to factor in an occasional transmission overhaul into your yearly budget.

Also, you have some monstrous trees, lots of wind and monstrous trees. I don't think you charge enough for the level of climber that you are.
 
Tree Trimmer said:
I wouldn't even think about contract work until getting a few years experience. There's more to it than just climbing.

TT

What exactly do you mean by this? More specifically, are you saying that there are unique aspects of this side of the business that a contractor (i.e. Me) should be aware of before venturing into this full time.
I have made the investment in the truck and chipper, so I can't really justify completely giving up on my own customers/business. I already do a bit of contract climbing, so I'm considering a more intense focus on this and possibly phasing out "personal" jobs.
 
Your personal jobs are going to be what keeps you working consistent. If the company you contract for goes flat in the Winter months, you're flat, too. It's just my personal feeling, but you should be in charge of taking care of yourself, not depending on someone else to take care of you. All it will take is tangling with the boss just once, and you don't get invited back.

When on contract, you're working for (most likely) an hourly rate. When you're being your own boss, you write your own paycheck, and dictate your own hours. There's also tax advantages to being the business owner, but more than anything, I think, is the sense of control over your own destiny.

That's one side. I can see not wanting to be your own business owner simply because of the responsibility load. With no two tree business being alike, your business is what you create, and the business end is so much more than just climbing. A lot of it is not a lot of fun, like having a job on top of a job. Only you can make the decision.
 
KentuckySawyer said:
What exactly do you mean by this? More specifically, are you saying that there are unique aspects of this side of the business that a contractor (i.e. Me) should be aware of before venturing into this full time.

As far as the couple of years goes, it takes a while to be able to show up to a job ready to go without having seen it at all. I actually think the couple of years is also to season you and give you enough common sense to know what not to climb. (Was that a RockyJ-ism)

Just because someone else bids a job thinking you'll do it doesn't mean you have to. We've all seen people in trees that have no business up there.

It turns out that productivity ends up being the hinge. Most companies have decent climbers. The reason they're calling you is because they need someone to speed things up or they don't have a firm idea on how to approach the job in the first place. Either way you need to be able to fill that role. Just chase a storm or two. You start thinking you have an idea how to climb efficiently and someone two doors down makes you look like you're up there with a walker.

As far as the contractor stuff goes, just be sure to write it all down. Not just for records, for memory, and again: stuff to not do next time. I doubt if you can just stay local either (just ask JPS). To make it work you really need to get your name out as well as your reputation. It better be very good if you expect other companies to see a real value in hiring "another climber".

Food for thought,

TT
 
Perfect! Where are all you guys, you're just what I need. Kentucky, I too just bought a chipper/dump setup. I just started up an 'outdoor services' company and it's really hot out of the shoot for landscape and tree work. I had plans arranged with a guy I grew up with to compliment his tree business by doing the chipping/ground work. It was perfect, as he is simply amazing at selling 'em and climbing/dropping 'em. Well, after the first week, he has proven himself to be exactly what I had feared, nothing but a conman. He'll spin the biggest yarn you've ever heard for the customers. Then, he procedes to tell them about 'his' new chipper/dump and he's telling me how great it will look painted with HIS company colors, and oh, it'd probably be 'best' just to put HIS phone # on my equipment, cuz it would just be 'easier' for the customers. Oh sure, we know it's MY equipment, but we'll all make SO much more money if we just follow HIS master plan. Man, what a joke! I fired his arse so fast....he owes me $700 after just the first week. A couple quick loans....a few 'short-pay' jobs...but OH, don't worry! The NEXT job pays DOUBLE! Yeah right. A $700 loss today will save me a career of misery with this guy. Anyway, now I am in the situation that I want to sell the big jobs, bring in a contract climber, pay him, send him on his way, and I'll stick around for the chipping/cleanup. I'm normally there doing a landscape job anyhow. So, that expertise is exactly what I need. I'm looking for the hired climber to have his own gear, and to do the job exactly as he is trained and experienced enough to do. I won't be giving any orders, I'll be grunting for him, and paying him top dollar for the services. Heck, I was thinking I'd be paying $100/hour and still be making good money. I'd look for a $1,000 job to be done in 1/2 day and a $1,500-$2,000 job to be done in a day. The climber would make $400-$800/day, and so would I. What a perfect arrangement. As long as I don't get a limb dropped on my head, or sucked into my chipper, I'll be just fine on the ground.
Kurt
 
Kaptain, I've been lookin for a guy like you for YEARS, someone who subcontracts to do nothing but cleanups, which is the same as me working contract.

Your showboat climber is a total fool for not seeing the opportunity he's screwing up. You could both win so big, you're a dream team. I wanna slap the dang short-sighted con boy. :angry:
 
Back
Top