Controversial pruning at Cathedral Square, Brisbane

[vharrison2]

Typical CYA.

Jason Jay, in case CYA is not universal, CYA means Cover Your A$$. The folks would like honest answers, not CYA answers.

 

[vharrison2]

Here's some more pics I held back.

Ekka, why would the council waste money on a Hack, when clearly from the first picture of the root flare, the tree should be removed? The bark is breaking away, a clear sign the tree is dying.

 

[treeseer]

Thanks, Eric. Those pics show that the tree was poisoned, and the part of it that looks the worst seems to have been dead before it was cut back. That seems to match the 20% of the root area that the Councillor Mr. Jay spoke of. This in part answers my question of 35 posts ago, about the tree's previous condition.

It is necessary to know this and other information before launching into theories. Science might seem boring compared to political intrigue, and it requires the effort of thought, but that's where we have to start. "The herbicide is toxic to...trees...and should not be used for weed control in forested areas. Half of the applied herbicide is lost in soil after one to six months depending on the climate and soil type. Hexazinone is broken down by soil microbes. They break apart the ring structure of the compound and release carbon dioxide in the process." (from Cornell U)

This addresses my subsequent question--what is being done for the tree under the ground? Was there a healthy population of microbes in the soil, or were their numbers down due to management for turfgrass? It looks here like the real story is landscapers managing an area for turf while being clueless about the tree. Evidently the BCC's valuation of this ficus as "significant green capital" did not get communicated to the managers, especially the pesticide procurers, and the applicators who did not read that bit on the label. Their heads should roll on this one. Politicians are an easy target. Too easy.

This btw is why there are ten domains on the ISA cert test. You've got to understand more about the whole tree to be a competent arborist. To know where to cut, you must first know why. Then comes the how. Internodal, horizontal cuts made at predetermined locations is topping. Reducing the rest of the tree at all, if done before it dies back, does not seem like a necessary response to pesticide injury. Reducing it by topping, in the name of "research"?, we are still waiting for the reasons.

How beautiful--and safe, and natural--that landscape could be if instead of grass the root zone was mulched, and planted with ornamentals. Eric why not lay off the pols, and go after the landscape architects and the landscapers instead. if you're going to overcome the sovereign immunity claimed by city hall, go after the guiltiest parties.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Eric why not lay off the pols, and go after the landscape architects and the landscapers instead. if you're going to overcome the sovereign immunity claimed by city hall, go after the guiltiest parties.

I have yet to meet a landscaper that knows the first thing about trees. Anybody in the business, knows you have to keep landscapers away from trees, almost like fencing tree preservation areas away from construction contractors. Lawn maintenance guys are almost as bad.
If a Landscape Architect was consulted on the care of this tree, which I doubt, I would be very surprised if he recommended the type of care this tree is getting.
When money is spent on a municipal level, there is a politician that approves the expenditure. He is directly responsible for this mess. In this case it sounds like Jason-Jay.
I think this story would make a great public interest article for the Brisbane newspapers. A good reporter could dig through the paper work and come up with who the contractors were, what their relationship to council members is, how much was spent, and why it has been allowed to go on for so long.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

As this thread rages on I have started to come up with a theory.

Could it be possible that there was an arguement over the removal of the tree? As in, someone wanted it removed and another didn't? The tree was poisoned by the person who wanted it removed, and now it can't be proved? So the tree remains as a monument to stupidity and a bigFU to the tree killer?

Are you holding out anymore facts EKKA?

 

[a_lopa]

Id like to add to this thread that i worked for a company years ago that was directly supported by a "family member"in office at brisbane council,basically the only reason it had work.i lasted 24hrs IT WAS THAT BAD!!!the $$$ O.K absolute hacks.

this was working brisbane city area.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

First hand knowledge of nepotism, what a shock! opcorn:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It occurred to me that perhaps Treeseer's reference to landscapers was about the landscapers that initially poisoned the tree. If the application was made against label instructions, the law was broken (at least in the US), because the label is the law.
Who was running the crew that illegally applied the poison? Who was the applicator? Was he licensed? Certified?
If you think about the 10's of thousands of dollars lost on this tree and the fact that it's still going on, and now it's half dead and topped (lopped), for the whole world to see, as the center piece of Brisbane's care for it's natural resources, and even worse, as an example of what their forestry department think good tree care looks like.
What an embarrassment.

 

[treeseer]

Bingo. The poisoners may claim it was an "honest mistake" and expect forgiveness. Consider the financial magnitude alone--they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The malpruning is merely sour icing on a very rotten cake.

Are there investigative journalists in Brisbane? If not, Eric can you find out all you can, and write it up objectively? If you report with no rant or emotional edge, it should be published.

 

[Ekka]

Since we are not getting much of a response I'll divulge what i know so far from various sources.

The tree was transplanted to the location in 1987. I have not pics or evidence of what it looked like then or the big old lopped stubs.

The tree is located in a large planter box, with a carpark underneath. The planter box is around 4' high on one side. I do not know about soil or drainage.

I was informed by Hess, a parks and garden guy that rang me back (thank you) about the decline of the tree. He never mentioned poisoning but said it was soil tested and had an OD of zinc in the soil due to over fertilizing.

The lopped back leaders were to mitigate deadwood hazard. But in true form ficu have long leaders with nowhere to drop crotch to. He said many were in favour of removal but the powers to be said no. He mentioned the tree was cut by their own crew not contractors. The crew weren't happy about it either but they were following instruction.

We spoke of the eyesore it is, the bad image for the public and the slap in the face for arborists like myself who are trying (with our own money) to stamp this rampant practice out.

When I originally rang the council call centre I was reporting malicious damage to park vegetation ... that got their attention.

Also along the Wharf st end of the park a number of dead ficus trees were removed and a remaining one topped. You'll notice the other trees right next to them are fine ... sort of stuffs up the poisoning theory.

Hess said the Wharf st ficus likely declined due to turning off of the irrigation system duew to our drought plus being root bound above a carpark as well.

Ficus have notorious root systems, they need space. You may want to contain them in an area but then similar to being in a pot they get root bound.

I have with topiaried specimens in large pots found the same. They slowly get sparse with leaves, leaves turn yellowish and drop off ... you water, fertilize etc but not much improvement. If you then start trimming it gets uglier slowly. The solution in large pots was to pull the whole root ball/soil our and I used to literally cut it in half and cut off girdling roots and mangled strangled ones, washh off all the old soil and in with the new .... bingo, tree did Ok for another few years.

The Warf St trees certainly had the same symptoms and declined over atleast a 1 year period but perhaps longer. A remaining one has been topped.

So, where is the story, where is the schedule of events, this is I think the largest most central BCC public display of arboriculture ... and certainly this needs to be watched and everybody informed not just a selected few.

Yes Guy, I think it deserves a professional write up, I think a journalist without a hort back ground might ask questions and get answers the average Joe would understand. I'll do my best to get some-one onto it, but it certainly deserves exposure.

 

[treeseer]

On Ficus trees, see the article on page 18.

http://data.memberclicks.com/site/sma/CityTrees_Jul-Aug06_part1.pdf

Is there any way the tree was poisoned and this Hess fellow not aware of it?

It'd be interesting to see how the roots and the box are on the side that has the dead bark.

I don't understand the recommendations for removal.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

With a lopped off tree on the forum here, it seems that as each day passes, I encounter something that reminds me of it's demise.

Like today, in Jedediah Smith Redwood Park, I saw this:

http://imageevent.com/mdvaden/utility?p=3&n=1&m=75&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2

The greater portion of hacked trees that I've seen, eventually get some form of shelf looking fungi, whether inconspicous, or severe.

The park tree was not hacked - it just served as a reminder.

 

[xtremetrees]

Fight the good fight Ekka .... Challenge the status quo.
Fear is a corrosive thread in the fabric of our existence (excluding climbers) is shot thru with it.


aussie loopa... hummmm

TS do you think that tree represents in good standing other trees in the forest?

 

[Kate Butler]

in defense of landscapers

I have yet to meet a landscaper that knows the first thing about trees. Anybody in the business, knows you have to keep landscapers away from trees, almost like fencing tree preservation areas away from construction contractors. Lawn maintenance guys are almost as bad.
If a Landscape Architect was consulted on the care of this tree, which I doubt, I would be very surprised if he recommended the type of care this tree is getting.

I must disagree (to a certain extent) regarding your 'across the board' diss of landscapers. My personal experiences as a landscaper (over 20 years) are more along the lines of: you need to watch the landscape architects FAR more closely than those who do the actual work. The architects have the "book learnin", but not the practical experience. In EVERY instance of the many dozens of architect-drawn landscape plans that I have ever bid on, there have been architect-mandated specification errors: ie. spec-ing a plant that's not hardy, spec-ing a plant that won't survive due to heat reflectivness of the adjacent structure, spec-ing a plant that's too susceptible to local wildlife (bugs or quadrupeds), spec-ing a plant that will outgrow it's position in the landscape, and on and on...

We all should differentiate between an educated (and I don't mean just having been to school for it) landscaper and a person who just plants whatever the homeowner asks for. Then, we should differentiate between the real landscaper and the fellows (mostly, although some are women) who mow lawns but CALL themselves landscapers. Then there are the "boys with toys" whose attitudes are from the Tim Taylor school of thought. Anyway, my point, though rambling, is that some of us 'real' landscapers DO know and care about trees.

My vote for terminally idiotic goes to whoever thought that ANY ficus of that size could be contained in a 4' deep box (I don't care how big the perimeter of the box is) and still grow and be healthy.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I must disagree (to a certain extent) regarding your 'across the board' diss of landscapers. My personal experiences as a landscaper (over 20 years) are more along the lines of: you need to watch the landscape architects FAR more closely than those who do the actual work. The architects have the "book learnin", but not the practical experience. In EVERY instance of the many dozens of architect-drawn landscape plans that I have ever bid on, there have been architect-mandated specification errors: ie. spec-ing a plant that's not hardy, spec-ing a plant that won't survive due to heat reflectivness of the adjacent structure, spec-ing a plant that's too susceptible to local wildlife (bugs or quadrupeds), spec-ing a plant that will outgrow it's position in the landscape, and on and on...

We all should differentiate between an educated (and I don't mean just having been to school for it) landscaper and a person who just plants whatever the homeowner asks for. Then, we should differentiate between the real landscaper and the fellows (mostly, although some are women) who mow lawns but CALL themselves landscapers. Then there are the "boys with toys" whose attitudes are from the Tim Taylor school of thought. Anyway, my point, though rambling, is that some of us 'real' landscapers DO know and care about trees.

My vote for terminally idiotic goes to whoever thought that ANY ficus of that size could be contained in a 4' deep box (I don't care how big the perimeter of the box is) and still grow and be healthy.

Technically, you are correct.

I knew more than most Certified Arborists of equal years in the green trade, well before getting my arborist certification. It's just that I didn't need it. 50% of the reason I got the certification was to silence the critics.

Even the college which I attended, had a consulting arborist teaching the Tree ID and tree care classes. What he taught, exceeded the ISA certification test.

So, I passed the ISA test one day, making me a Certified Arborist and Certified Landscape Technician too.

Now I can kid around with some arborists that they don't really know the landscaping field like they should.

And, being of Canadian and Italian decent also, I can get away with telling Canadian and Italian jokes.

But I have noticed, that the landscape maintenance and contractor field, is generally too void of correct practical tree knowledge, and the landscape architects field is too void of hands-on experience.

 

[jonseredbred]

And, being of Canadian and Italian decent also, I can get away with telling Canadian and Italian jokes.

QUOTE]

so you have an ethnic dilema between eh? and oy?

Sorry, I could not resist it.

 

[treeseer]

TS do you think that tree represents in good standing other trees in the forest?

What was the question again, please? the answer is no, I think, though it's been a few decades since I saw a ficus in a forest.

Kate thanks for being a tree-savvy landscaper, and for laying (some of) the blame where it belongs, at the LA's door. "the landscape architects field is too void of hands-on experience." You can get a Master's in LA without touching a tree.

And let me get this straight--none of the box was not removed when that tree was planted in 1987? If so, whoever did that work has some splainin to do...after we hear about this "resarch" on topping...

 

[Ekka]

http://imageevent.com/mdvaden/utility?p=3&n=1&m=75&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2
]

Mario, what sort of fungi is that stacked up the trunk?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It's a shame when viewing responses from around the world that negatives which appear rather then real questions requesting explanations.

I have to agree with Jason, it's obviouse that there was a lot of deadwood in this tree. Having everyone jump in and start bashing is one of the problems with this site. Knee jerk responces on lack of information.

I wish Erick would have done a little more research before posting. But maybe he ran into a brick wall.

The subject tree is a part of research with majority of the states qualified and recognised arborist involved.

Is this the monster that a major ISA member was awarded a prize for transplanting? It resembles the pictures, size and species.

In Brief the subject tree was transplanted in 1987 and is considered significant green capital to Brisbane City Council. The subject tree recently had Hexazinone poured over a section of roots @ 20%. Basically long history with a detail of events supporting the actions to date.

Hexazinone is a triazine herbicide used against many annual, biennial and perennial weeds as well as some woody plants. It is mostly used on non-crop areas; however, it is used selectively for the control of weeds among sugar cane, pineapples, and lucerne. Hexazinone is a systemic herbicide that works by inhibiting photosynthesis in the target plants. Rainfall or irrigation water is needed before it becomes activated.

Registered forestry, rangeland, right-of-way uses: forestry use on Christmas tree plantations, conifer nurseries, conifer release, forest plantings; terrestrial food crop use on pastures, rangeland, and fallowland; terrestrial nonfood crop use on rights of way and industrial and facility sites

Operational details:
Target Plants: Hexazinone is used to control broadleaf weeds, grasses, and woody plants.
Mode of action: Hexazinone inhibits photosynthesis. It is readily absorbed through leaves and roots and moves in an upward direction through the plant.
Method of application: aerial broadcast; basal soil treatment; undiluted spot treatment; tree or brush injection
Timing Of Application: Apply after ground thaws; broadcast application in the spring; best performance when application is followed by rainfall and warmer temperatures; do not apply to saturated soils. In low-moisture areas can be applied in fall before snow fall.

Chemical Formula: C12H20N4O2
Molecular weight: 252.3
CAS NO.: 51235-04-2

Specification:
98% TECH
Appearance: White, crystalline solid
Active ingredient (HPGC): 98% min
Loss on drying: 1.0% max
Insoluble matter in alcohol: 1.0% max
PH: 5.0-9.0​

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I have to agree with Jason, it's obviouse that there was a lot of deadwood in this tree. Having everyone jump in and start bashing is one of the problems with this site. Knee jerk responces on lack of information.

I wish Erick would have done a little more research before posting. But maybe he ran into a brick wall.



Is this the monster that a major ISA member was awarded a prize for transplanting? It resembles the pictures, size and species.

Hexazinone is a triazine herbicide used against many annual, biennial and perennial weeds as well as some woody plants. It is mostly used on non-crop areas; however, it is used selectively for the control of weeds among sugar cane, pineapples, and lucerne. Hexazinone is a systemic herbicide that works by inhibiting photosynthesis in the target plants. Rainfall or irrigation water is needed before it becomes activated.

Registered forestry, rangeland, right-of-way uses: forestry use on Christmas tree plantations, conifer nurseries, conifer release, forest plantings; terrestrial food crop use on pastures, rangeland, and fallowland; terrestrial nonfood crop use on rights of way and industrial and facility sites

Operational details:
Target Plants: Hexazinone is used to control broadleaf weeds, grasses, and woody plants.
Mode of action: Hexazinone inhibits photosynthesis. It is readily absorbed through leaves and roots and moves in an upward direction through the plant.
Method of application: aerial broadcast; basal soil treatment; undiluted spot treatment; tree or brush injection
Timing Of Application: Apply after ground thaws; broadcast application in the spring; best performance when application is followed by rainfall and warmer temperatures; do not apply to saturated soils. In low-moisture areas can be applied in fall before snow fall.

Chemical Formula: C12H20N4O2
Molecular weight: 252.3
CAS NO.: 51235-04-2

Specification:
98% TECH
Appearance: White, crystalline solid
Active ingredient (HPGC): 98% min
Loss on drying: 1.0% max
Insoluble matter in alcohol: 1.0% max
PH: 5.0-9.0​

I was hoping that you would contribute...almost wondered where you went.

Good points. There are some knee jerk reactions on the site too.

Fortunately, the thread was posted with the intent for constructive conversation. The more that people stick to known tree care information, the better.

Regardless of the positive and the negative replies, it's too bad that the tree is the equivilent of a person who is in the hospital, with both critical injuries,a and a coma. But not a recoverable situation. Such a person would be on life support, while they continually decline over a period of months or years.