Covid Whistleblowers About Last Year's Fire Assignments

[northmanlogging]

There’s no moving the goalposts, you are just wrong.

Catch the Covid and your chances of survival are exponentially better than if you catch fire. If you are young and healthy your chance of dying from Covid drops exponentially. Fire on the other hand doesn’t discriminate

well, I've been on fire, a lot actually, but fire if it dont kill you just leaves fugly scars maybe some nerve damage in severe cases

Covid on the other hand, isn't like fire at all, you can't see it to avoid it, you don't feel it to flinch away, no smoke so you can't smell it and leave the room.

it just infects you... quietly, then maybe you get symptoms, maybe you don't, maybe you stay home until you feel better, maybe your an ******* and infect 100 other people because you don't believe in science, and masks make your breath stink.

Then if you do survive you are now at permanently reduced lung capacity, possible brain damage, maybe one of your kidneys failed and it had to be removed or worse you're on dialysis until you die, or you're on O2 for the rest of your life.

Another interesting statistic BTW the death rate of people on average is around 2% (1000x that of the flu) However, if you do not have access to medical help, i.e. health insurance the death rate is closer to 10%

What some of you are confusing because of incompetent politicians and heavily biased media, is the death rate of infected folks, and death rate of the entire nation regardless of being infected or not. Both numbers are true, so its not lying, its just not being honest.

 

[southpaw]

Yuo internet and media, thise are the places to "prove" things?

It's a place to listen to different ideas and opinions , how and what you decide on is your thing
Maybe it opens your eyes to see different , maybe it don't don't
You do not have to interject with your thoughts and that is ok too , perhaps wise on your part to not do so
If you don't like what you read you can always just ignore and go about your merry way
It's just people talking so leave it at that

 

[madhatte]

We just did the RT-130 refresher for the year and unsurprisingly a hot topic was Covid safety and Covid fatigue. I suspect that as the gap closes between vaccination and apathy there are gonna be a few small outbreaks that catch folks by surprise. This is no time to let down our guard.

 

[Woodslasher]

well, I've been on fire, a lot actually, but fire if it don't kill you just leaves fugly scars maybe some nerve damage in severe cases

Covid on the other hand, isn't like fire at all, you can't see it to avoid it, you don't feel it to flinch away, no smoke so you can't smell it and leave the room.

it just infects you... quietly, then maybe you get symptoms, maybe you don't, maybe you stay home until you feel better, maybe your an ******* and infect 100 other people because you don't believe in science, and masks make your breath stink.

Then if you do survive you are now at permanently reduced lung capacity, possible brain damage, maybe one of your kidneys failed and it had to be removed or worse you're on dialysis until you die, or you're on O2 for the rest of your life.

Another interesting statistic BTW the death rate of people on average is around 2% (1000x that of the flu) However, if you do not have access to medical help, i.e. health insurance the death rate is closer to 10%

What some of you are confusing because of incompetent politicians and heavily biased media, is the death rate of infected folks, and death rate of the entire nation regardless of being infected or not. Both numbers are true, so its not lying, its just not being honest.

Yeah, fire will f you up bad pretty quickly, and far frickin worse than you said. For the severe cases you'll have anywhere from several weeks to over a year of hospitalization initially and months of OT/PT after they release you. You'll need skin grafts and BTM sheets if you don't have enough skin to cover all of your burned areas initially. The donor sites for your skin grafts will be parts of your body that weren't burned, be it your torso or legs, or the soles of your feet in really bad cases. So, you'll be suffering from the equivalent of second degree burns on most of your body that isn't burned to provide skin to cover the parts of you that are burned. Several months out from your initial surgery you'll start needing release surgeries because your grafted skin/scars will start contracting and limiting your mobility and range of motion severely. What they do is they cut slits in your skin and the tension will pull your skin apart and leave an oval-shaped skinless patch where they will stitch or staple a donor chunk of skin in. The OT/PT is needed because when you get burned badly you are unable to walk or move, really, for weeks. When you can walk you'll be quite weak and unstable and you'll tire very, very quickly. Learning how to walk, move your hands, move your fingers, and do simple tasks such as using a fork, picking up a water glass, putting on your clothes, etc, takes awhile. Your muscles will atrophy severely and you'll spend months or years getting back in shape. I went from 130lbs to 95lbs in less than a week and it took me about 10 months to regain my weight and 14 months out I'm still not as strong as I used to be. You'll also be highly sensitive to pain and minor bumps can cause crippling pain, but you'll have lost your ability to feel things you touch with any level of detail. You can also get hyper metabolism, which is where you'll burn through calories quite rapidly even if you aren't doing anything. There's also a high chance for getting PTSD, so your brain is involved as well. I was on fire for about 20-30 seconds and spent 3 months in a hospital recovering from that. In about a week I'm going in for surgery #6 and I'm not even 1.25 years out from when it happened. Getting badly burned isn't quite as "minor" as you made it out to be. No, I've never walked a fire line, but in this case I know what I'm talking about. Covid may suck, but I know people who've had it and had nothing worse than flu like symptoms and I know people who've died from it. I know people who've gotten minor burns and are fine, and I also heard from the paramedics who treated me that I'm the only guy they've seen with 3rd degree burns as bad as I had who's survived. It all depends on the severity, the age, and the initial health of the victim.

 

[catbuster]

COVID has been a topic of discussion on our engine (Type 1 & 6)/hand crew this year as well. We did RT-130 to get ready to burn back in January and it was the first in-person training we had done since last Summer. We had been staying away from the station short of calls for service. I can’t lie, it was nice to see the guys & girls that make up our crew that are returning, but we promptly left until it was time to burn our first parcel, a ~300 acre native grass field. We didn’t spend much time in camps last year, it was nice. I hope the same for this year. Most of us are vaccinated but as new strains show up I’m concerned for my crew. I don’t know how things will look in the future. I hope for a return to normal, but I doubt we’ll get back to “normal” any time soon.

 

[northmanlogging]

Yeah, fire will f you up bad pretty quickly, and far frickin worse than you said. For the severe cases you'll have anywhere from several weeks to over a year of hospitalization initially and months of OT/PT after they release you. You'll need skin grafts and BTM sheets if you don't have enough skin to cover all of your burned areas initially. The donor sites for your skin grafts will be parts of your body that weren't burned, be it your torso or legs, or the soles of your feet in really bad cases. So, you'll be suffering from the equivalent of second degree burns on most of your body that isn't burned to provide skin to cover the parts of you that are burned. Several months out from your initial surgery you'll start needing release surgeries because your grafted skin/scars will start contracting and limiting your mobility and range of motion severely. What they do is they cut slits in your skin and the tension will pull your skin apart and leave an oval-shaped skinless patch where they will stitch or staple a donor chunk of skin in. The OT/PT is needed because when you get burned badly you are unable to walk or move, really, for weeks. When you can walk you'll be quite weak and unstable and you'll tire very, very quickly. Learning how to walk, move your hands, move your fingers, and do simple tasks such as using a fork, picking up a water glass, putting on your clothes, etc, takes awhile. Your muscles will atrophy severely and you'll spend months or years getting back in shape. I went from 130lbs to 95lbs in less than a week and it took me about 10 months to regain my weight and 14 months out I'm still not as strong as I used to be. You'll also be highly sensitive to pain and minor bumps can cause crippling pain, but you'll have lost your ability to feel things you touch with any level of detail. You can also get hyper metabolism, which is where you'll burn through calories quite rapidly even if you aren't doing anything. There's also a high chance for getting PTSD, so your brain is involved as well. I was on fire for about 20-30 seconds and spent 3 months in a hospital recovering from that. In about a week I'm going in for surgery #6 and I'm not even 1.25 years out from when it happened. Getting badly burned isn't quite as "minor" as you made it out to be. No, I've never walked a fire line, but in this case I know what I'm talking about. Covid may suck, but I know people who've had it and had nothing worse than flu like symptoms and I know people who've died from it. I know people who've gotten minor burns and are fine, and I also heard from the paramedics who treated me that I'm the only guy they've seen with 3rd degree burns as bad as I had who's survived. It all depends on the severity, the age, and the initial health of the victim.

Ok I may of downplayed it a little bit, but the point is, fire and burns you can see coming (which is the really sucky part) so if you can you can avoid.

but the real important thing is, you can't give your burn to someone else by walking though the local walmerch

 

[madhatte]

In other news, someone needs to take you on a log truck ride to get some newer pictures... I'm all for nostalgia, but I also have a pretty good memory so?

TAG you're it!

 

[madhatte]

Don't be so sensitive. The guys screwed up and got what they deserved.
Whiners shouldn't be allowed to use chainsaws.

You, uh, ever work for a government agency? In a leadership position? On any kind of emergency incident? You'll find that there has emerged over the last 20-some years a very welcome culture of accountability, both experienced and documented, that REQUIRES whistleblowing when procedures and protocols are violated. If CDC says "jump", USFS is obligated to say "how high?" This is not a matter of politics but of operational continuity. USFS is in error here, not the Technicians who have been cast aside for their service. I say this both as an Incident Commander (only ICT4, but) and as a Technician. I expect the same accountability of both myself and my coworkers. We are absolutely responsible for each others' safety, and COVID-19 is as deadly a threat as it is an unfamiliar one. Do not minimize this issue on an incident where I am in command. I will send you away to be ignorant in your own company. This is my obligation to my crew and their safety.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

You, uh, ever work for a government agency? In a leadership position? On any kind of emergency incident? You'll find that there has emerged over the last 20-some years a very welcome culture of accountability, both experienced and documented, that REQUIRES whistleblowing when procedures and protocols are violated. If CDC says "jump", USFS is obligated to say "how high?" This is not a matter of politics but of operational continuity. USFS is in error here, not the Technicians who have been cast aside for their service. I say this both as an Incident Commander (only ICT4, but) and as a Technician. I expect the same accountability of both myself and my coworkers. We are absolutely responsible for each others' safety, and COVID-19 is as deadly a threat as it is an unfamiliar one. Do not minimize this issue on an incident where I am in command. I will send you away to be ignorant in your own company. This is my obligation to my crew and their safety.

Um, yes, I work for a government agency and I am well aware of the rules and regs.
There are proper channels for "whistleblowing" (snitching, tattletailing, etc...) and spouting off on facebook isn't one of them.
Idk what was or wasn't being done regarding covid in this situation, but obviously, from the information stated in the article, actual quotes of those involved, there is plenty of politics involved, at the local level and higher up the chain of command. There always is.

Btw, you being a commander and technician, like those who were reprimanded, and me not being either, I think it's fair to say of the two of us, I would have more of an unbiased opinion on this particular case.
Oh, and they weren't "cast aside for their service." They were reprimanded for failure to follow procedure.

 

[slowp]

I'll have to read it again, after coffee, but I seem to recall that both tried to go through "channels" and were ignored. That happens. I had that happen twice on fires and the only way we got change was to take a different approach.

In Oregon during a lightning bust, we were sent to a fire in the middle east of the state. It was a crew of folks that were mostly timber beasties. We'd worked together, knew each other and pretty much trusted each other because we'd been on some hairy slash burns together. Camp was in place and I think a Type 2 or 3 overhead team in place. Camp was in a meadow, with bug killed Lodgepole pine scattered about. We set up a tarp and then were helicoptered out and put in a 30 hour shift. There were so many fires and not enough crews at that time (sound familiar?) We came back in after having one minor insurrection--the bus was not going to stop to pick up another tired crew and they'd be waiting a while so we yelled and got them squished onto our bus.

We got in and the overhead team had changed to one up level. We were going to go on night shift so needed to sleep. The new team was concerned, and rightly so, about all the snags in camp so we woke up to the sound of saws and trees falling around us. Some trees were falling close to our sleeping area. We couldn't sleep. We came up with the idea that they could fall the trees during shift change and that way the night shift could get sleep. We talked to the folks in incident command. They ignored us and one told us we were the problem.

We were a tight crew, and we had backup back home. Our sawyer started cursing, grabbed his saw, which was a large one because we were from Western Warshington, and went over to the plans tent. He started the saw, revved it up and was bellowing and cussing asking them if they could sleep with that noise. Security was called and he was marched back and told to pack up. The security grimly announced, "He is being sent home." At that point, without any planning we all just said we would be going with him. We'd been out almost two weeks anyway. The security guy was speechless. He disappeared. He reappeared with one of the overhead honchos, who was red in the face and yelling at us about our crew being a problem. BUT, they decided to LET us stay on the fire. They would still cut down snags but at shift change (mentioned as if it was their original thought) and things would be safer. We stayed for the rest of the three weeks and were not reprimanded when we returned home, labeled That Problem Crew.

That might not have occurred if we'd not been a mixed crew, with over half of us having "permanent" status and a good team of people back home. Our Fire Management Officer protested sending us off Forest because "It's dry here and our trees are more valuable than dead eastside trees." The home budget was flush and we would be making extra money by patrolling on weekends and sleeping in our own beds so money wasn't an issue.

Another incident took place a few years earlier, and I took part in a sit down "strik protesting shower hours for women. The hours were convenient if you worked in camp, but not for those of us on a crew. We got the hours changed, but not by going through the channels, which was tried prior to the little protest.

You have to look out for yourself and sometimes take means that are outside of official channels if the bigwigs are being ignorant. It isn't snitching, or telling, it's a serious safety issue brought to light, and yes, I consider showers, and food to be safety matters.


Folks in charge often have tunnel vision and think only of their goals.

Oh, and the big one on the fire vs covid discussion is you can go home burned and your family and friends are not going to get burned if they are around you. It isn't contagious. It is just as serious, but you aren't going to get others sick. Pretty simple, that.

 

[slowp]

TAG you're it!

No thank you. Log trucks have too many Donettos on the dashboard, and uncomfy passenger seats.

 

[slowp]

Hmmm. That sounds like a good song title, Donettos on the Dashboard.

 

[slowp]

COVID has been a topic of discussion on our engine (Type 1 & 6)/hand crew this year as well. We did RT-130 to get ready to burn back in January and it was the first in-person training we had done since last Summer. We had been staying away from the station short of calls for service. I can’t lie, it was nice to see the guys & girls that make up our crew that are returning, but we promptly left until it was time to burn our first parcel, a ~300 acre native grass field. We didn’t spend much time in camps last year, it was nice. I hope the same for this year. Most of us are vaccinated but as new strains show up I’m concerned for my crew. I don’t know how things will look in the future. I hope for a return to normal, but I doubt we’ll get back to “normal” any time soon.

I was amazed at how small the local camp was during the fires last year. Apparently there were several scattered about, miles apart to try to keep folks safe. That may have added to the resource shortage as more toilets, showers, etc. would be scattered about.

Saw the camp because I walk the Demon Dog around the Stampede Grounds sometimes. That park is huge and most likely would have been crowded with tents if it weren't for Covid.

 

[northmanlogging]

No thank you. Log trucks have too many Donettos on the dashboard, and uncomfy passenger seats.

you'd have to share space with my truck saw, tool box, O.S. box. and some assorted spare parts... Maybe if he' up to it, the super puupper, (he's all for log truck rides, but he drools, farts and is scared to get out of the truck)

And the passenger window does not roll down currently.

but it would be fun?

 

[northmanlogging]

not to mention hard hats, rain gear, a bale of new gloves, and whats left of half a bale of greasy gloves and a spare set a calks

 

[slowp]

you'd have to share space with my truck saw, tool box, O.S. box. and some assorted spare parts... Maybe if he' up to it, the super puupper, (he's all for log truck rides, but he drools, farts and is scared to get out of the truck)

And the passenger window does not roll down currently.

but it would be fun?

Sounds like a blast. The only log truck ride I got was a short one. I had gotten my pickup really stuck in snow, and had no radio (it was a day when they took them out for maintenance) and was told the road was plowed, which it was until it wasn't. No turnaround. I flagged down the last truck of the day and HE DID HAVE DONUTS ON THE DASHBOARD. It was very bumpy.

 

[slowp]

not to mention hard hats, rain gear, a bale of new gloves, and whats left of half a bale of greasy gloves and a spare set a calks

I understand. Survival gear.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

I'll have to read it again, after coffee, but I seem to recall that both tried to go through "channels" and were ignored. That happens. I had that happen twice on fires and the only way we got change was to take a different approach.

In Oregon during a lightning bust, we were sent to a fire in the middle east of the state. It was a crew of folks that were mostly timber beasties. We'd worked together, knew each other and pretty much trusted each other because we'd been on some hairy slash burns together. Camp was in place and I think a Type 2 or 3 overhead team in place. Camp was in a meadow, with bug killed Lodgepole pine scattered about. We set up a tarp and then were helicoptered out and put in a 30 hour shift. There were so many fires and not enough crews at that time (sound familiar?) We came back in after having one minor insurrection--the bus was not going to stop to pick up another tired crew and they'd be waiting a while so we yelled and got them squished onto our bus.

We got in and the overhead team had changed to one up level. We were going to go on night shift so needed to sleep. The new team was concerned, and rightly so, about all the snags in camp so we woke up to the sound of saws and trees falling around us. Some trees were falling close to our sleeping area. We couldn't sleep. We came up with the idea that they could fall the trees during shift change and that way the night shift could get sleep. We talked to the folks in incident command. They ignored us and one told us we were the problem.

We were a tight crew, and we had backup back home. Our sawyer started cursing, grabbed his saw, which was a large one because we were from Western Warshington, and went over to the plans tent. He started the saw, revved it up and was bellowing and cussing asking them if they could sleep with that noise. Security was called and he was marched back and told to pack up. The security grimly announced, "He is being sent home." At that point, without any planning we all just said we would be going with him. We'd been out almost two weeks anyway. The security guy was speechless. He disappeared. He reappeared with one of the overhead honchos, who was red in the face and yelling at us about our crew being a problem. BUT, they decided to LET us stay on the fire. They would still cut down snags but at shift change (mentioned as if it was their original thought) and things would be safer. We stayed for the rest of the three weeks and were not reprimanded when we returned home, labeled That Problem Crew.

That might not have occurred if we'd not been a mixed crew, with over half of us having "permanent" status and a good team of people back home. Our Fire Management Officer protested sending us off Forest because "It's dry here and our trees are more valuable than dead eastside trees." The home budget was flush and we would be making extra money by patrolling on weekends and sleeping in our own beds so money wasn't an issue.

Another incident took place a few years earlier, and I took part in a sit down "strik protesting shower hours for women. The hours were convenient if you worked in camp, but not for those of us on a crew. We got the hours changed, but not by going through the channels, which was tried prior to the little protest.

You have to look out for yourself and sometimes take means that are outside of official channels if the bigwigs are being ignorant. It isn't snitching, or telling, it's a serious safety issue brought to light, and yes, I consider showers, and food to be safety matters.


Folks in charge often have tunnel vision and think only of their goals.

Oh, and the big one on the fire vs covid discussion is you can go home burned and your family and friends are not going to get burned if they are around you. It isn't contagious. It is just as serious, but you aren't going to get others sick. Pretty simple, that.

Can't argue with any of that. Maybe these two guys would have had better results if they had protested in some other way besides on Facebook.
I'll think of you next time I'm having a bad day at the post office.

 

[madhatte]

Btw, you being a commander and technician, like those who were reprimanded, and me not being either, I think it's fair to say of the two of us, I would have more of an unbiased opinion on this particular case.
Oh, and they weren't "cast aside for their service." They were reprimanded for failure to follow procedure.

The current version of the Incident Commander's Handbook devotes much of its first chapter to the tenets of a High-Quality Organization. Much of that revolves around the need to question authority when it's wrong, and how to refuse illegal orders. This is very much procedure.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

The current version of the Incident Commander's Handbook devotes much of its first chapter to the tenets of a High-Quality Organization. Much of that revolves around the need to question authority when it's wrong, and how to refuse illegal orders. This is very much procedure.

Could you post a link to an online version of that handbook? I'd like to read it.
I found these two docs., but I don't think they are what you mentioned
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd644053.pdf
https://www.nifc.gov/nicc/logistics/references/Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide.pdf
Maybe one of these?
https://www.fs.fed.us/im/directives/