Crane removals....

[custom8726]

Ok I will try to catch up, First off I like jomoco's advice on the relief cuts for many circumstances especially if you are working with a new (to you) crane operator or crane. A good crane operator will not over load the pick hence causing a shock load to the crane and a obvious danger to the climber. A barber chair is usually the cause of bad choker placement or boom position when picking. To get back to some questions directed to me, I use nylon straps 98% of the time and always use 2. It takes an extra 30 sec to put a second strap on the pick. I have seen nylons fail before and if you use the crane operators straps you have no idea where and what they have been through. Always inspect the straps for obvious abbrasions and never assume just because you can not see a blemish there is not one present-(MORAL) USE A SECOND STRAP!! Once you start using a second strap you will relize the benefits even with vertical picks its so much smoother picking equally strait up VS Lifting the side you are cutting and trying to keep up with the crane or vice vs's. Now I doubt jomoco would agree with this method but I often just cut strait through finishing my cut at the boom. I do this on vertical picks and with a good crane OP and a fast enough saw it works quit well, but I will agree it is not as safe as the relief cut method and should only be used if you are very comfortable with the crane ops ability to correctly PRE-TENSION the pick and or keep up with it if he is under tentioned. You will also learn to watch your cut closely and can tell if the pick is over tentioned before you get 2/3rds way through your cut you then can single to the crane op to let off a little. Mother nature makes sure there is not an exact formula to follow for the perfect cut or pick HENCE give yourself plenty of lead way when using the load chart and wood chart and always have a back up plan. For instance if you can tie in under where you intend on making your cut and lanyard in at a lateral just incase of a barber chair you have a back up. I am sure some will think thats a bad idea also because if you got to bail quick you are limited by you lanyard, I am comfortable enough in my ability to properly position the straps where I have no intention of cutting and bailing. Also your already tied in and ready for the crane op to pick you back up simply lanyard in and flip your climbing line over the spar you just cut and continue on. Ok I am rambling here sorry. As far as OLDIRTY question on the benefits of owning you own crane, I would love to but It's a huge expense for a small company to take on. At this point I am forced to rent and lease but in the near future I would like to invest in a 23-27 ton rear mount crane for my own tree work and also have a full time crane op to lease out with the crane to other tree companies- construction companies-ETC..ETC.. When I do not need it. That way I can justify the expense. If I only wanted a truck crane for my own company I would have to compromise on the size and lifting capacities due to there is just not enough money in tree work alone to justify a 200k crane by itself atleast for me currently anyways. Ok, Rant over.

 

[tree MDS]

Oldirty, so with the smaller crane you pretty much just try and hang the piece all nice like and just cut right on through from the back?? Correct? That way its easier on the boom even if your saw gets pinched correct?

 

[custom8726]

Forgot I prefer my 361 most of the time while doing crane work but often I end up with the 372 24" and on rare occasions the 394 36" I hate those days.

 

[oldirty]

Oldirty, so with the smaller crane you pretty much just try and hang the piece all nice like and just cut right on through from the back?? Correct? That way its easier on the boom even if your saw gets pinched correct?

yes and no.

like i said almost no pick is the same and you do need to put a relief cut somewhere. for me ,most times, my relief cut comes from the very start of the cut. and yes i try to cut from under the ball to the boom all in one smooth move......

and yes it is easier on the boom but like i said at the beginning of my cut i try to use that as my relief cut......thats why it is so important to be aware of the kerf...after some time (like anything we do) you can "feel" what kind of cut you are going to use.

damn this double speak of mine!!!

custom. i might have to start bringing two straps with me just to give it a shot. do you put them on the same side or on the opposite side of each other?

 

[oldirty]

Forgot I prefer my 361 most of the time while doing crane work but often I end up with the 372 24" and on rare occasions the 394 36" I hate those days.

lol. those are the lots of water and banana days!

 

[tree MDS]

I love my older 372 (with the 71cc) and 20" bar in a tree- crane or no crane that trees gonna pay, lol.

 

[jomoco]

(this is soooo hard to describe on a keyboard)

but anyway with the "shelf" you want to make it side to side so the crane go boom left or right to break it free. you dont want to do that over under with the boom because then it turns into a nightmare for the CO to get it loose.


help at all? lol

Ok OD, you asked for it, so don't get all offended or nothin buddy.

Instructing a crane op to boom left or right to break off a pick of any size is complete insanity, and any CO worth his salt knows it.

The rotation on any crane of any size is the very weakest link in the entire operational range of maneuvers cranes make.

It is just this type of stuff that gets me in trouble here so please don't post anymore dangerous nonsense like you've just done OD, I'm tryin to be cool and friendly here bro, so work with me on that.

The rotational weakness virtually all cranes suffer from is the precise reason a crane must be perfectly level before jack happens.

Be safe guys!

jomoco

 

[oldirty]

Ok OD, you asked for it, so don't get all offended or nothin buddy.

Instructing a crane op to boom left or right to break off a pick of any size is complete insanity, and any CO worth his salt knows it.

The rotation on any crane of any size is the very weakest link in the entire operational range of maneuvers cranes make.

It is just this type of stuff that gets me in trouble here so please don't post anymore dangerous nonsense like you've just done OD, I'm tryin to be cool and friendly here bro, so work with me on that.

The rotational weakness virtually all cranes suffer from is the precise reason a crane must be perfectly level before jack happens.

Be safe guys!

jomoco

no offense taken man. thats why i dont do it. these were instructions from the CO's back when i started on them. "make an over under and get out the way"


i didnt say to do that did i? i gotta go back and read some.

 

[oldirty]

yup i saw where i said it.

damn. ummmmm....


please no over under (snap cut) cuts people! i am in no way shape or form a crane operator although i do load the wood on the odd occasion.


jomoco is correct and i have not studied for any certifications yet. i just climb off them, not run them.


any of what i have said here i use but doesnt mean it is the proper way. use your own discretion in the tree. i'd hate for you to get banged up and blame me on your way to the hospital.

 

[Blakesmaster]

any of what i have said here i use but doesnt mean it is the proper way. use your own discretion in the tree. i'd hate for you to get banged up and blame me on your way to the hospital.

Nice disclaimer, Dirt. Now I'm all sorts of confused. We'll probably just make smaller picks, dog in at 6, tip at 12, and blast on through till dogs are at 3 and tip is at nine. Leave a bit of holding wood, do a relief cut an inch beneath from 12 straight back, rappel down a bit and see if 'ee can't winch 'er up. Gotta jet now, but I'll read the responses later.

 

[oldirty]

Nice disclaimer, Dirt. Now I'm all sorts of confused. We'll probably just make smaller picks, dog in at 6, tip at 12, and blast on through till dogs are at 3 and tip is at nine. Leave a bit of holding wood, do a relief cut an inch beneath from 12 straight back, rappel down a bit and see if 'ee can't winch 'er up. Gotta jet now, but I'll read the responses later.

lol.

like i said. i use all of what i said here in the tree during crane work and havent been wrecked by doing it.

jomoco is right though about the left to right on the boom movement. if you do make a snap cut you gotta make sure the cuts are not too far apart otherwise the crane cannot cable up enough to break the cut free.

i have seen booms move left or right to free wood ,while i was in the tree, but jomoco is right in saying that it isnt too cool to do.

next crane job i do i'll bring the cell phone with me and take a cut by cut picture sequence for you.

like a good foreman or boss, i wouldnt tell you to do something i dont have my full confidence in doing myself. that said, because what i say might get lost in translation while i type, i dont want you to get in trouble yourself.


pics for sure of the next crane job. cuts only!

 

[tree MDS]

Just collecting different input myself- all good stuff certainly! Although when I get to use a crane again I think instinct will take over as usual- I've hung many a "crane sized" piece (effectively hung) right to the tree with my present methods, (by climbing) so I'm not too worried about this anymore (the how to make your cut thing). Its nice to have this conversation however, I've been sort of thinking about this stuff in my head+ doing research here and in the field for quite some time now. If I can hack off a huge tip tie/butt tie going horizonally with the pressure cramming the cut leader down onto the saw while cutting the last fibres clean- usually without pinching the saw- I guess thats probably easier. I love the old ways. No crane! Workie!! Rope cheap, crane expensive!! Lol.

 

[tree MDS]

I've gotta finish pruning them big a$$ed Red Oaks I've been lucky enough to put off (due to mildly sprained ankle + rain), this job scares me soo much (from the labor intensive aspect) that I would love to be pointed around by a crane. lol. No spikes+ polesawing sucks- so much so that I bid each of these trees at 1500 to prune- they got bids and I still got it!! After that Its bucket gravy and takedowns again so I guess just suck it up, lol. I'm gonna get batteries for my digi tomoro morning sinse It'll be a slow ground dog day- maybe if I get some good ones I'll figure out how to post them somehow.

 

[masterarbor]

A lot of great pics!

 

[Ghillie]

D@mn, I missed quite a bit today, didn't I?

I am ready Jomoco. If I said something the wrong way or just plain wrong thing to say, let me know.

I started this thread in the hopes to provide some safe information. And I will not take it personally anybody's attempt to clarify or correct me.

Tree work in general is dangerous, and when you add forces that contradict gravity.... That adds a new level of "WTF just happened!!!" to the game.

I appreciate the clarification on barberchairs. I mentioned them a couple of times and in my mind I meant both up and down. I now see it didn't translate well in black and white.

So far, I think this is turning into a good thread. I am learning..... and hopefully passing on some tips myself.

The day I quit learning... Is the day I should walk away from this work, and my other job too!! Because it is not only me that I will get hurt, and I couldn't live with that.

Be safe, (not just carefull, carefull still gets you hurt)

Fred

 

[custom8726]

yes and no.

like i said almost no pick is the same and you do need to put a relief cut somewhere. for me ,most times, my relief cut comes from the very start of the cut. and yes i try to cut from under the ball to the boom all in one smooth move......

and yes it is easier on the boom but like i said at the beginning of my cut i try to use that as my relief cut......thats why it is so important to be aware of the kerf...after some time (like anything we do) you can "feel" what kind of cut you are going to use.

damn this double speak of mine!!!

custom. i might have to start bringing two straps with me just to give it a shot. do you put them on the same side or on the opposite side of each other?

It varies, On vertical picks I will usually place the straps opposite each other, Like 12 & 6 O-clock with the boom at 9 O-clock. If you choose not to use a relief cut and prefer the pick to be pulled towards the boom place the straps at 1 & 5 with the boom at 9 and so on and so fourth. I have experiemented alot with strap placement but its hard to explain things over the computer for me and not to mention every tree is different, HENCE, the ability to be diverse is essential when using cranes for tree work on a regular basis. Some one mentioned a climber / Crane OP as the best combo of operator when doing tree work, I agree. Understanding the fundamentals of bolth is important. You will have to come down some day and check our operation out, I am sure we could learn a couple of things from one another, Well that is if your not to scared after your last play date I read abought, Lol!!

 

[oldirty]

[/U][/B]


You will have to come down some day and check our operation out, I am sure we could learn a couple of things from one another, Well that is if your not to scared after your last play date I read abought, Lol!!

brother you are a fulltime tree guy. you know whats what. that and the fact that you are in the game day in and out. it would be my pleasure to put some hours in with your company.


maybe soon before the winter hits....let me see how much vacation i got. sounds like a great idea.

 

[Thillmaine]

but anyway with the "shelf" you want to make it side to side so the crane go boom left or right to break it free. you dont want to do that over under with the boom because then it turns into a nightmare for the CO to get it loose.


When I think of a crane I think of it like an excavator. THe strongest pull is always towards the mounting point. Side to side is your weakest link. On out crane, we have a plastic sheeve that the cable sits on, and pulling it side to side, side loads the sheave and will damage it.
I am new to crane work as well but we do have a crane and I am trying to use more slings on tops after having some BIG cottonwood tops flip over on my first crane removal.
On wood, I always use the snap cut, using the clock analogy with the boom at 12. I put the chocker and ball on the 12 o'clock side. Start my cut at around 2 cut to about 8 and then square up to 4ish. THen I make a cut on the back side from 9- whenever the peice breaks off.
As for laterals and othe cuts everyone is varied, notches and standiong peices up, sometimes cutting from the top down about 60 percent, tension the cable, then undercut.
I am also seeking tips, I jsut follow what the boss says, but I always feel like their is a better way.
To me using a peice of have bull line would be the best thing for balancing peices. A running bowline on one end, and inline cloves hitch on the hook, and another clove hitch or running bowline on the other end. Besides weakning of the rope due to bend raidus and knot tying I see no problem with this, although have never used the technique.

 

[custom8726]

brother you are a fulltime tree guy. you know whats what. that and the fact that you are in the game day in and out. it would be my pleasure to put some hours in with your company.


maybe soon before the winter hits....let me see how much vacation i got. sounds like a great idea.

Anytime, Just let me know. I never get to play ground man anymore or better yet I could set up something big to tag team. HMM, just read that back (BIG& TAG TEAM) does'nt come off quite right, but you get the point. Lol..

Seriously though from reading your posts in the past and seeing some pics of your work you seem to have the right attitude for the trade and the skills to back it up, So anytime I have the extra work load you are welcome to come down.

 

[custom8726]

but anyway with the "shelf" you want to make it side to side so the crane go boom left or right to break it free. you dont want to do that over under with the boom because then it turns into a nightmare for the CO to get it loose.


When I think of a crane I think of it like an excavator. THe strongest pull is always towards the mounting point. Side to side is your weakest link. On out crane, we have a plastic sheeve that the cable sits on, and pulling it side to side, side loads the sheave and will damage it.
I am new to crane work as well but we do have a crane and I am trying to use more slings on tops after having some BIG cottonwood tops flip over on my first crane removal.
On wood, I always use the snap cut, using the clock analogy with the boom at 12. I put the chocker and ball on the 12 o'clock side. Start my cut at around 2 cut to about 8 and then square up to 4ish. THen I make a cut on the back side from 9- whenever the peice breaks off.
As for laterals and othe cuts everyone is varied, notches and standiong peices up, sometimes cutting from the top down about 60 percent, tension the cable, then undercut.
I am also seeking tips, I jsut follow what the boss says, but I always feel like their is a better way.
To me using a peice of have bull line would be the best thing for balancing peices. A running bowline on one end, and inline cloves hitch on the hook, and another clove hitch or running bowline on the other end. Besides weakning of the rope due to bend raidus and knot tying I see no problem with this, although have never used the technique.

Funny so many people use snap cuts, I rarlely ever feel the need. If you have a doubt in your mind that top might flip either reposition your straps or where you are making your cut if possible if not use the butt tie technique. Relief cut, position the butt tie, make cut, If all is well pop the rope off the pick and away it goes if not your ground guy can gently allow the top to flip in a controlled manor. Hope I described that in a way it makes sense.