Customer insists that stump grinding is part of my bid.

[pistol pete]

I just finished up a job in which I underbid because the customer made a counter offer to my bid. I took his offer because I needed the work and made half my usual rate. Today I took him an invoice, and he asked if I finished the stumps. With a puzzled look, I gave a surprised "what are you talking about". The customer comes back with, “your estimate says remove the tree, and the stump is part of the tree". I pointed to the invoice which showed after expenses the actual removal of his trees was pretty much free. I made $150.00 on the removal of three 60 foot pin oaks, one of which was hanging over his neighbor’s house. The total bill was $1300.00 and I was only able to make money on the $50.00 per load haul fee(of which there were 11). He came back at me with, "you can sell the firewood, can’t you". I said, "sure I can after I put $40.00 of labor into each rick and hopefully sell them for $80.00 to pay for the labor".

My question is how do I get this guy to pay me without grinding the stumps (all of which are 26 inches+)? I have never had to state in a bid, price does not include stump grinding. My customers always know, stump grinding is an additional service.

 

[tree md]

That's a tough one buddy. I always make sure they know the stump is not part of the bid. I ask every customer if they want the stumps ground and make sure they sign off on what we agree to. Be very specific in your written work order and have them sign it. Some people use contracts but my attorney has told me that my signed statement form is binding.

 

[pdqdl]

Be pleasant, then tell the customer:

"I'm sorry you didn't understand my quote. I'm afraid that you made a mistake. If you want the stumps ground, it will cost $XXX additional. If you REALLY think that you shouldn't pay for this work until I have ground the stumps, then we have an issue that only a judge can decide.

I'll see you in small claims court."

Then if they are really adamant, make sure you file as soon as you leave their premises. It wouldn't hurt if you made a video of your last meeting with them, either. It is very intimidating when you tell them (while the camera is running) that you are making a transcript of your efforts to settle the bill in good faith prior to filing in court; and that you want an accurate record of the facts, which you will be willing to share with their lawyer prior to court.

You shouldn't lose in small claims court. Nothing in the phrase "stump grinding" sounds like "tree removal". You might tell them that trees are not stumps, and stumps are not trees, either. It doesn't hurt to mention that there is never a stump until the tree has been removed, so the two are mutually exclusive. If the chump was to hold you to the standard of "every part of the tree would be removed", then you would have needed an excavator to dig up all the roots as well.

A small claims court will typically understand what is fair and what is someone trying to get out of a bill or gouge extra out of a contractor.

Unfortunately, this behavior probably suggests that they are going to beat you out of the money no matter what you say or do.

 

[StihlRockin']

I had the same thing happen to me several years ago because the customer saw the part on my estimate that said "full clean up". Although he "was" drinking, I gave me no slack and made a spectacle of the whole ordeal.

I proceeded to define what I meant by "full clean up", then showed him several of my past estimates where it was clearly marked separately the stump and tree work.

He gave in with his wife crying in the background due to his conduct.

StihlRockin'

 

[Saw Dust Smoken]

stumps

Have a signed contract is required for my service. Also a large X by flush cut ground level or stump removed X amount of inches below ground. Leave no room for problems latter.

 

[outofmytree]

Hmm. Always tough when communiction goes awry.

I would explain to the customer that there has been a misunderstanding, but rather than make a fuss, you are prepared to help him out. Then ask him, how much does he think the stumps are worth and shut up.

He will answer one of three ways.

1st he may say "nothing it was part of your price." This person is dishonest and is taking you for a ride. Explain it nice and slow again, if he doesnt play ball, then tell him you are a professional tree worker not a professional debt collector so you will give your invoice to someone who is. Keep your cool. Address him as sir or Mr... at all times.

2nd he may say....... low ball figure. Look him straight in the eye and say "sir that is about half what the stumps are really worth. I will meet you in the middle and charge you ........ +50% of his price". If he agrees you got a little more, if he declines then tell him thanks for the work and resubmit your invoice without the stumps. This person is trying to get something on the cheap but is not a natural liar or cheat.

3rd he may say ........ at or above normal stump price. Look him straight in the eye and say "sir that is too much money for this work" then give him a price at 25% under the going rate. This person has made an honest mistake and will become your all time biggest fan. Whats more, his friends and neighbours know he is an honest man and when he tells them that you gave him a discount even after the "mix up" over price they will call you in too.

If there is one thing I have learned after owning and managing 3 businesses over 15 years it is that bad news travels 10 times faster than good. Even liars and cheats can be believed if they make enough noise. So keep em quiet or make em happy.

On my quote forms the stump grinding has a seperate line, if yours does not, then change that for the future.

Best of luck with this tricky situation.

 

[BlackenedTimber]

get yourself a good drill with a 7/8" wood auger bit, and a few sticks of dynamite. drill the stumps, insert quarter charges, run your lines, and twist the stick.

no more stumps.

In all seriousness, this sounds quite tricky, and the HO sounds to me like a cheat, trying to manipulate and honest man. Work it out as best you can, and if there is no progress, go to court, as others have suggested.

Good luck with this one, let us know how it turns out.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Things like this happen to all of us as time goes on, you learn to phrase your bids in a certain way; "remove tree to low stump" I had one where it was worded flush, and the client spazzed that there was a half inch above the ground, another where there was soil crown which they expected removed. I explain we will take it down low enough that we do not damage our chainsaw, if they want it lower then it has to be a stump grind.

Cleanup can be a kicker, I know of one guy who used "clean up all debris" and the client refused to pay until all the duff was cleaned out of the gutters where trees were growing. It came from that tree after all. He changed the verbiage to "clean up of all debris generated by our work."

How about when you say you will clean up all debris, but have no exclusion on the stump grindings? "But you said all debris! I want that 7 ft pile in my yard gone!"

Do you have a stump grinder? If so, I would do the stumps, but only go a few inches down.

 

[arbor pro]

Hmm. Always tough when communiction goes awry.

I would explain to the customer that there has been a misunderstanding, but rather than make a fuss, you are prepared to help him out. Then ask him, how much does he think the stumps are worth and shut up.

He will answer one of three ways.

1st he may say "nothing it was part of your price." This person is dishonest and is taking you for a ride. Explain it nice and slow again, if he doesnt play ball, then tell him you are a professional tree worker not a professional debt collector so you will give your invoice to someone who is. Keep your cool. Address him as sir or Mr... at all times.

2nd he may say....... low ball figure. Look him straight in the eye and say "sir that is about half what the stumps are really worth. I will meet you in the middle and charge you ........ +50% of his price". If he agrees you got a little more, if he declines then tell him thanks for the work and resubmit your invoice without the stumps. This person is trying to get something on the cheap but is not a natural liar or cheat.

3rd he may say ........ at or above normal stump price. Look him straight in the eye and say "sir that is too much money for this work" then give him a price at 25% under the going rate. This person has made an honest mistake and will become your all time biggest fan. Whats more, his friends and neighbours know he is an honest man and when he tells them that you gave him a discount even after the "mix up" over price they will call you in too.

If there is one thing I have learned after owning and managing 3 businesses over 15 years it is that bad news travels 10 times faster than good. Even liars and cheats can be believed if they make enough noise. So keep em quiet or make em happy.

On my quote forms the stump grinding has a seperate line, if yours does not, then change that for the future.

Best of luck with this tricky situation.

Good, professional advice. :agree2:

 

[BuddhaKat]

I think this is a customer that's just out to cheat you. You should tell him that you will turn him into a collection agency and that will have a negative effect on his credit rating. You should also threaten to take him to court, which will also reflect on his credit.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Don't have the answer for you.

But this came to mind several years ago, and whenever I give estimates, I either write "with stump grinding" (or removal) or "without stump grinding".

There is a common sense aspect to this too.

A homeowner can't really justify that "tree removal" logically includes the stump.

Because to remove the "tree" in that sense, would mean extracting the entire root system which is often a rediculous or impossible task.

Therefore the "stump" is often the added service available, and I'm used to most services here isolating the cost for that.

 

[ATH]

"Sir, I am sorry, but the standard practice in this industry is to separate stump grinding from tree removal. You are certainly free to call other tree removal firms to verify they also bid the 2 separate. Finally, you might also ask for other bids on stump grinding. If you do that, I assume you will quickly understand that my price could not have possibly included stump grinding."

If you want to keep dealing with him, add: "I will be happy to meet the lowest written stump grinding bid and extend the final due date for the stump grinding payment only for an extra 30 days."

 

[ShoerFast]

If I may? $0.02 cents worth...

Not in the tree business, my Dad was, I worked for him.

But have been self-employed in my own business full-time well over 15 years now. And what I have learned is, 'there out there' !

As I see it, try to talk to him, the video camera seems like a real good idea, but sure may tick some off. That might be what you might be looking for?

If he dose not think he will pay you till the stumps are ground, dragging your feet will get you into more trouble, if I may?

Just another move on the chess-board, but he might get the stumps ground and try deduct the price from your bill?

First thing I would do is go to your court-house and research how many times he been in small-claims court, you might be surprised?

And then check how he settled in most cases, you might find your answer?

This is a good reason to be on good terms with 'most' of your local stump grinders and tree services, you might need there help in settling this.

Just a hunch, if talking to the guy seems to be taking the wrong direction, bail and send him a bill and plan on meeting him in court.

If you think there is a chance he did not know that grinding stumps is an extra fee, you might get him with a low-ball addition to your price?

From the hip, the worst thing you want is a stump-grinding bill attached to his counter-claim, some Judges are stupid as sheep.

The moral of the story "Get it in writing" !

 

[arbor pro]

You can look at this two ways:

1) contractor point of view - it seems obvious that stumps are a separate part of the tree; therefore, if not quoted in the bid in writing to be removed at 'x' price, they are not included in the scope of work.

2) customer point of view - it seems obvious that stumps are a part of the tree; therefore, if not specified in writing that they are excluded from the scope of work, then they are included.

My point is, one can easily see it from both perspectives. As the service provider, it is our responsibility to be clear on what is or is not to be done so that it leaves things clearly spelled out for our client. It is our CHOICE whether to use verbal or written contracts and it is our CHOICE as to what level of detail to include within a contract. However, should a discrepancy arise, each state's law will look at it differently. In some states, verbal contracts are not binding so, if it's not in writing, it's not a contract. Further, if it's in writing but leaves room for interpretaton by either party, the law tends to side with the consumer over the contractor.

So, the only way to really be sure that a client won't try to stick you with doing something that wasn't included in a quote, is to be very detailed in what will be and wont be done as well as with how it will be done and what kind of property damage, if any, should be expected as well as who will be responsible for any repairs to property, etc, etc.

It looks to me as though your client has reasonable cause to withhold payment if the contract does not clearly state that the stumps are not included. Of course, a court of law might find in your favor but, the question you have to ask yourself is whether it's worth a half-day of your time in court to find out the answer to that question. You might just be better off striking a deal with him and doing the stumps for a big discount or even for free and writing this one off to a lesson learned...always have detailed contracts.

On my proposals, I use a disclaimer box on the bottom that states, among other things, that stumps are in addition to the work quoted unless stated otherwise. I also give the depth that stumps will be ground and state that cleanup and dirt fill are extra too unless stated otherwise.

My other disclaimers are about the types of equipment that I use and the types of lawn/landscape damage that can occur when big equipment is used and whose responsibility it is to repair the damage unless stated otherwise, etc, etc.

 

[Treetom]

I had the same thing happen to me several years ago because the customer saw the part on my estimate that said "full clean up". Although he "was" drinking, I gave me no slack and made a spectacle of the whole ordeal.

I proceeded to define what I meant by "full clean up", then showed him several of my past estimates where it was clearly marked separately the stump and tree work.

He gave in with his wife crying in the background due to his conduct.

StihlRockin'

good idea. or show some old bids 'with stump removal' to the judge.

 

[arbor pro]

One more point: When you're in business, this kind of stuff happens. No matter how thorough your contracts are, there will always be cases where a discrepancy occurs in the scope of work or in the price of the work. Some people are difficult, others simply don't think the way we think and read a contract in a different way than we do. Being in business means that at some point or another, you will have to do free work that you deserve to be paid for or spend a day in court arguing about it. In most cases, it's easier to just do the work, keep the client happy and move on to the next job.

Don't forget about the value of keeping a client happy. Though you may not want his repeat business since he's trying to rip you off, you don't really want him to tell 50 friends that you're a bad guy to do business with. What's the value of work that you might do for those 50 potential clients compared to the 11 stumps you do pro bono for this one client?

Think big picture.

 

[ozzy42]

Some have said to grind the strumps to satisfy the guy for fear of a bad word getting around.

Yes .it is very important to have happy customers,but their has to be a limit.If the man is plain out trying to jip you,and being totally unreasonable,chances are he treats everybody that way,and if he badmouths every single person he deals with,then his credibility with neighbors may be minimal anyway.
Every reasonable attempt should be made to satisfy a client,but I would draw the line at 3-400$ in free stump work.You don't want that kind of reputation either.
My guess is your pocket will decide if you do them or not.
Myself,I would take him to court.

 

[Lawnmowerboy48]

In a sense I do agree with the homeowners the stump and root system is essentially part of the tree. We had an issue four years ago that where we removed the tree but the customer complained that we did not remove the stump. His argument was that the stump is part of the tree. When we quote jobs now we say that we will flush the stump x amount of inches above grade, usually 2-4 inches.

 

[YoungTreeGuy]

Cut Down Hickory Tree $650
Clean-up Brush and Limb Wood $300
Remove Base Log $100

Grind Stump 77" $154
Total $1254
Taxes Not Included

If your not clear about your estimate you'll end up with a lot of these people. If you do the stumps and their creditable... You've done well. If he isn't creditable don't do the stumps. Worth knocking on the neighboors door and finding out what kind of neighbor he is. They'll know. I've had few jobs recently "just made pay" on but they where good creditable people ( Judge Retired State Trooper) that have given me $1100 of stump work. Made up for it in a week. I'd check with the neighbors and small claims. If not get a recorder if you plan on going to court camera seems a bit much and a recorder you can keep in your pocket. Cell phone has one on it too usually.

 

[arbor pro]

Cut Down Hickory Tree $650
Clean-up Brush and Limb Wood $300
Remove Base Log $100

Grind Stump 77" $154
Total $1254
Taxes Not Included

So, customer hires you to grind, cleanup and fill a 77" stump for $154. After you grind thestump, Customer says: "Wait, you didn't finish. The stump isn't cleaned up and you didn't put dirt in the hole.... WHAT! You didn't mention in your quote that you charge extra for that! I assumed cleanup and dirt fill were included since you didn't specify that they weren't..."

Many ways to get stung. Depends on how one wants to read into it.