Dangerous barber chair felling ash infected with emerald ash borer

[GrizG]

Rope or heavy straps are definitely your friend, hopefully attached to a backhoe
And, no climbing on these killer trees
I had one 48 inches at base, it exploded when it hit the ground

Roping is dangerous on the dead ash as the trees are prone to breaking off mid-stem when pulled. Wedging also presents risks as the vibration can cause limbs to break off... As you say, definitely no climbing!

The ash have been dead around here long enough that the tree services never climb them nor will they use ropes. If the tree cannot be felled whole bucket trucks and grapple saws are employed. Me personally, if the risks of felling outweigh the risks of letting a tree fall on it's own the tree gets to fall on it's own!

 

[JimR]

Where are you located in Mass?

Paxton, Trees Unlimited looked at my trees.

 

[northmanlogging]

I'm well aware of the education effect... I've worked and associated with people with education and training ranging high school drop outs to those with multiple doctorates. I've also taught at colleges and mentored young people in the workplace. It is safe to say that those who took GOL 1 are much less likely to be maimed or killed, or injure someone else, than those who have had no formal training. This as they are aware of hazards, saw dynamics, lean, gunning, escape routes, etc. as well as how to fell a tree using at least one proven technique. On the other hand, not all those who learned through "real world" experience had good experience. In many cases when someone claims to have 30 years experience with a chainsaw the reality is that it's 2 hours of experience 6,000 times...

I knew many of the people in the GOL 1 class I hosted and some had been running saws for 20-40 years. One kid from a land trust had about an hour of saw tutelage from me. That kid was like a sponge and was the only one with a perfect stump, and he had no bad habits! He used my gear and was the only one with a sharp saw when the class started... Since then he has acquired a saw, PPE, etc. and has done cutting for the land trust. When he was unsure about how to handle a tree he'd call me and I'd go help him develop a cutting plan. I trust that kid.

Regarding the real world guys. I work with another land trust to keep 22 miles of a rail trail through a wooded environment clear of hazards and fallen trees. Last year I responded to a call about trees down. When I arrived and assessed the situation I found that a large walnut, it's stump on ground about 15 feet higher than the trail, had uprooted and taken down 6 other trees with it. I called the Coordinator of Land Stewardship requesting assistance with keeping trail users away and removing cut debris. She called in a volunteer the Executive Director had called upon previously. Both the coordinator and volunteer responded to the site.

The trees had heavily loaded trunks and branches along with spring poles and there were broken off trees. All of it coming from ground above the trail. I started removing the brush while waiting for them to arrive so I could form a plan on how to cut the loaded trunks. When the other guy showed up with a saw I requested that he not cut while I was cutting. This as it was too dangerous to have two guys cutting on the same loaded mess as things were moving around. I finished removing the brush and most of the heavy branches leaving only the heavily loaded trunks. At that point I took a water break and prepared to switch over to my MS461 from the MS261. The other guy, with his 30+ years of experience, jumped in with his mid-sized Husky.

The coordinator's spouse is a certified arborist who works for one of the bigger and more professional tree services in the area. He often goes out and assesses and bids jobs and he climbs and runs a saw too. As such, the coordinator is very familiar with tree work as she's been around it for 20+ years. The volunteer scared the crap out of us... he clearly had no understanding of compression and tension and dealing with loaded trees. The first 20 or so cuts he made resulted in the trunks splitting due to the stresses on the trunk. He came to the site on a compact tractor and after cutting used it's plow to push debris off the trail. After watching him cut I immediately removed all my gear from the area when he got on the tractor as I didn't trust him... sure as hell he ran over his own saw. The coordinator advised the Executive Director that they should not allow that guy to do any chainsaw work as he was dangerous... 30+ years of experience be damned!

Taking in the big picture GOL 1 training is valuable for all who take it and it pleases the insurance companies. In my opinion focusing on just the felling technique used to convey the information is too narrow a focus.

To be fair, the decades of experience guys come in 2 types the ayup, I run a saw. and the I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE YOU WERE KNEE HIGH TO RABBIT ****...
Its the same mentality of the college educated moron. (I believe its called entitlement)
Doing the same thing wrong for 30 years is no different then learning one way and never deviating, both are wrong and ignorant. (believe me I run self loader log truck, I get sent to some of the dumbest jack strawed knee deep mud cess pools, and its invariably the guy that spouts off about having decades of experience and a master loggers certificate to boot, it means nothing if you don't apply that knowledge)

Either way, we can circle around this topic and never see eye to eye, or we can agree to both be opinionated old ********, I'm fine with either.

 

[slowp]

Ok

now tell me, how many folks proceed past level 1
As I have said multiple times, its not necessarily a bad course, its just teaches one way to solve problems, the inherent issue is that it breeds the idea that THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, which can and will get somebody killed.

It depends on the instructor. I went to the first course near Woodland. The instructor was from Wisconsin and had been a professional faller at one time. Yes, he talked boring but also showed other ways to get trees on the ground. A couple of loggers attended and the rest of the folks were utilities and park people. One of the loggers was not a faller but operated a buncher and had to cut trees that the buncher wouldn't.

Production cutting was not the object of that course. Safety was. He covered the different face cuts, I remember the Coos Bay cut being demonstrated and other ways to get trees on the ground.

I'm not a faller. I'm not a logger. But I have been around a lot of falling, most of it by pretty good fallers. One thing I've learned is that there is always a tree that won't fall the way it was supposed to. Always. This happens to everybody so it pays to be on your toes. One guy, who does do certifications for the FS said that second growth is more hazardous to fall than the big old growth because the faller spends more time under the tree. I got pretty worried when I saw a tree fold up while being cut by one of the better production fallers in the area. He said afterwards that he got pretty worried too.

All trees do not behave, game of logging or no.

 

[Jed1124]

Paxton, Trees Unlimited looked at my trees.

If you have any trees that you would like to retain in the landscape I would strongly suggest that you start treating them now. EAB is in your area and once the trees start showing signs of infection it is generally to late to treat them.

 

[buzz sawyer]

Is that normal? I think I have been making my face cut depth at around 30% of the diameter.

Sounds about right. The depth may be 30% but the width of the hinge would be 80%.

 

[slowp]

Ya ever work with some college educated *******, that has never had any real life experience? Yet they have that education and that piece of paper that says "i'm the expert here"

No?

Thats what 90% of people that have taken a GOL course act like, they already know everything, because they paid some doode to tell them what they need to know.

Its not just GOL its every facet of bought education, its not the course itself, ITS THE FECKING IDIOTS WHO PAY FOR THE COURSE that are the problem. the course does not give someone common sense, orUmm the ability to think for themselves, Which I will reiterate, is my main concern with GOL or any sort of semi professional "hobby" training, not necessarily the curriculum, but how that curriculum is used in the world. (though in GOL's case they have a very narrow time frame, which leads to a very narrow set of skills taught, timber falling isn't something you just pick up in a few weekends with 12 other people in between snack breaks and bragging about how much you spent on your chaps)

If you can't understand this simple fact of human nature... you might be the problem.

Ummm, how many GOL folks have you met? It really hasn't been a big thing out here. If it's just on AS that you are referring to, there's a lot of huge egos and scary pictures on this forum.

The GOL instructor stressed, all the way through the two days, that it was an introductory safety course, was not the only way, was not going to make us experts, and that there are other ways. The problem is Egos. There's always know it alls. Some go to GOL, some don't. I would usually figure out who to stay a long ways away from in the woods, and who could be trusted or worked with. I was warned a few times. One warning was about the least formal educated guy (was a meth head) and to stay away cuz he don't see too good. I don't think he could have spelled GOL.



Don't knock formal education. It has it's place. I'm glad my doctor went to more skool.

 

[user 159780]

Had all our ash trees removed, much to the dismay of Bartlett who tried to sell me their EAB treatment.
Good bye ash trees...

 

[CJ1]

Oletrapper, If you are cutting logs then you need to get low so I cut on my knees at the end of the day to save my back. I use a Humbolt notch but way shallower than pictured. I only go as deep and steep as needed to control fall normally 20-30 degrees. I use a Coos bay back cut on the leaners or risk of splitting [barberchair] If you have a barberchair you have too small a saw [too slow] or you chickened out and did not finish the cut. OR you used a incorrect cut on the tree. Like everyone has been saying, experience is 99.9% of being safe and living. Find someone who has the experience to show you how to do it safely. If a log is not a issue, then cut at the height that is comfortable. But remember the higher up you go the more risk of the butt of the tree coming back on you if it hangs up. {The Humbolt notch really helps here, that is all I teach people to use} Use a large notch, roughly 1/3rd of the tree and a straight backcut for directing the fall and a Coos bay back cut for heavy leaners. They are simple and they work! I normally can tell how much experience a cutter has by the size of the notch. Alot of my notches a very small basically just enough to keep the wood from pulling and provide a step for the truck to fall from. The heartwood pulls is a no no and a deep notch and hesitated cutoff will give you that everytime. Anyway be safe and live to cut another one! CJ

 

[GrizG]

To be fair, the decades of experience guys come in 2 types the ayup, I run a saw. and the I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE YOU WERE KNEE HIGH TO RABBIT ****...
Its the same mentality of the college educated moron. (I believe its called entitlement)
Doing the same thing wrong for 30 years is no different then learning one way and never deviating, both are wrong and ignorant. (believe me I run self loader log truck, I get sent to some of the dumbest jack strawed knee deep mud cess pools, and its invariably the guy that spouts off about having decades of experience and a master loggers certificate to boot, it means nothing if you don't apply that knowledge)

Either way, we can circle around this topic and never see eye to eye, or we can agree to both be opinionated old ********, I'm fine with either.

At this point in my life I'm more of an Elder Statesmen. I'm more interested in developing collaboration between seemingly disparate groups in an effort to move everyone forward. For example, I've made good headway with getting progressive environmentalists and conservative conservationist sportsmen's groups to work together on forest and habitat management and hunting issues. That couldn't have been more evident than when the chair of a progressive land trust got up in front of a town meeting in support of deer hunting. This as the deer over-population has been decimating the forest. It wasn't lost on those present or the press who was speaking in support of deer hunting... it swayed the outcome. The land trust also adopted new policies on forest management beyond the "forever wild" position they held for decades. The sportsmen stopped attacking the environmentalists too and they came out in support of a big project to improve access to water shed properties that had been spearheaded by the land trust. I demonstrated to both groups that their interests overlapped about 95-99% and if they set aside that 1-5% difference things could be way better... and it is!

I was invited to go to the state capital and lobby senators along with a bunch of lobbyists from environmentalist groups. As we went from senator to senator the guy coordinating our efforts moved me up in the speaking order until I was first. This as I was able to touch a cord that the environmentalists consistently missed. As a result we got significant legislation passed and stopped some detrimental activity by governmental agencies that would hurt both the environmentalist and conservationist agendas. You've got be be able to understand and synthetize all sides of an issue to move forward... Sure there are some dumb a's out there as well as ivy tower ignoramuses but they can each bring value to the table. As such, I don't see the point in attacking GOL or it's students. They and we all would be better off if older experienced guys like us fill in the voids to move things forward.

 

[northmanlogging]

Ummm, how many GOL folks have you met? It really hasn't been a big thing out here. If it's just on AS that you are referring to, there's a lot of huge egos and scary pictures on this forum.

The GOL instructor stressed, all the way through the two days, that it was an introductory safety course, was not the only way, was not going to make us experts, and that there are other ways. The problem is Egos. There's always know it alls. Some go to GOL, some don't. I would usually figure out who to stay a long ways away from in the woods, and who could be trusted or worked with. I was warned a few times. One warning was about the least formal educated guy (was a meth head) and to stay away cuz he don't see too good. I don't think he could have spelled GOL.



Don't knock formal education. It has it's place. I'm glad my doctor went to more skool.

Been actively working around more then a few, not to mention the occasional argument here on AS.

My point being, be it informal or formal education, in some folks possibly a majority of folks, education has a tendency to develop hard and fast rules and opinions where there should be none. These same types of folks never question the information provided, they just regurgitate it verbatim as the gospel truth. When they are questioned, it generally turns into an argument, not because they think they are correct, but because they refuse to be wrong.

Kinda like your doctor insisting that your BMI is too high 6'0" and 330# is a BMI of 44.8, which is defined as morbidly obese, never mind I can dead lift a geo metro, and out hike everyone in said Doctors office, with a bum leg, but that is what they are taught and its therefore the only truth that matters to them. (granted last time I was in he was much more open minded about it, one of the reasons I like this doctor... doesn't automatically assume I have diabetes and that viral pneumonia isn't a result of binge watching ice cream go down my throat while chain smoking Camel non filters)

And I'm not knocking formal education, Hel I wish I could of gotten more, I'm just knocking the attitudes it more often then not establishes.

 

[CJ1]

Been actively working around more then a few, not to mention the occasional argument here on AS.

My point being, be it informal or formal education, in some folks possibly a majority of folks, education has a tendency to develop hard and fast rules and opinions where there should be none. These same types of folks never question the information provided, they just regurgitate it verbatim as the gospel truth. When they are questioned, it generally turns into an argument, not because they think they are correct, but because they refuse to be wrong.

Kinda like your doctor insisting that your BMI is too high 6'0" and 330# is a BMI of 44.8, which is defined as morbidly obese, never mind I can dead lift a geo metro, and out hike everyone in said Doctors office, with a bum leg, but that is what they are taught and its therefore the only truth that matters to them. (granted last time I was in he was much more open minded about it, one of the reasons I like this doctor... doesn't automatically assume I have diabetes and that viral pneumonia isn't a result of binge watching ice cream go down my throat while chain smoking Camel non filters)

And I'm not knocking formal education, Hel I wish I could of gotten more, I'm just knocking the attitudes it more often then not establishes.

^^so true^^ When someone can teach a tree the hard fast rules then I will believe them. Trees seem to rewrite the rules as you are cutting!! CJ

 

[northmanlogging]

To be fair I'm just as likely to call BS on the "decades" of experience folks too, wrong is wrong whether you learned it in a book, or learned it in a weekend course.

One of them "decades of exp" guys is a pretty good friend of mine now, I've learned a great deal from him, dude can barely read or write, but he can out log me and is a wizard on an excavator, He said it best, 30 years of doing it wrong doesn't make you any good at it. He's 60? +? and still picking up new ideas and trying out new machinery.

 

[slowp]

I have the same experiences with doctors. Finally, no lectures on the weight and even a comment about being a lot healthier than most people coming in here. The younger drs. seem to be a bit more looking at individuals, instead of the charts.

Some of us must be from the "ready to flee from the Sassenich" gene pool.

Speaking of, must go for a walk now.

 

[Huntaholic]

JEEZUS FRIGGIN CHRIST!!!!!! You folks sure use a lot of words, making much ado about basically NOTHING! I could show you more in 2 minutes, (the average time it takes to cut a tree) than what would at least take me an HOUR to type out here! My best advice would be to go find somebody that does this crap every day and spend a few days in the woods with them. Drive wedges, pack their gas and oil around, whatever it takes to get in the woods with a professional.
And before anybody says 2 minutes is an absurdly short time to cut a tree, no, its not. I cut a lightning struck dead tulip poplar for my neighbor a few months ago that was leaning HARD toward his house. I had to climb it, cable it, run the cable thru a pulley and pull it with my truck. Once that was all done, from the time I started the saw until the tree was on the ground was 1 min 36sec. His wife timed it, I don't pay attention to that kind of crap. It went EXACTLY where I wanted it, I used a flying Dutchman humbolt, bore cut, backset hinge, open face step ladder cut. Yeah, I don't know what that is but it sure sounded good!

 

[Pudsy]

I still don't get the question here. I went back to the OP's photos, and there definitely are two stems there, there is an obvious layer of bark between them shown in the notch cut. 95% of the notch has been cut in the smaller left stem, 5% in the main stem.

Then there was a back cut in the main stem that proceeded until *something* broke the main stem off, with a barber chair. I have no idea how the assembly held until the cut to the barber chair was made.

Perhaps the left stem was removed first, I don't know--but if it was, then there is insufficient notch in the main stem before the back cut was started. With that approach anything can--and did--happen.

I'm just not seeing any surprise here. It looks to me that there were two stems and they should have been taken down separately. What am I missing?

I'm 100% with lwmibc here.
This thread has some great/entertaining/educational discussion, but it does look to me that it has spun _completely_ off topic, considering the images posted by OP. Or are both lwmibc and myself just daft/blind?

 

[kdjacob2000]

Qiq==

as for humboldt/standard/birdsmouth....

all of them direct just as well as the other, each has its use, really the hinge/hold wood does the directing, the face cuts whichever type simply provide room for the stem to move.

Standard is good if you are in open ground and would like a very low stump. Its also arguably the easiest to master, and therefore the most common, though I do see a whole bunch of folks taking ridiculous amounts out of the stem for what amounts to a very shallow face... a 45 degree opening is more then ample for 99% of the wood out there, yet you see many that are nearly 90 deg essentially just cutting the taper out of the stump...

Humboldt is good for getting the butt to hit first, as well as acting as a chock against back slip, and will allow a tree to "fly" especially if its a narrow face down hill, and if you want to do crazy stuff like soft dutch, or siswheel it works marginally better then standard, and it doesn't ruin marketable wood. There are a bunch of other things you can do with a humboldt too, like sniping, side shift, modified block face etc etc etc.

Birdsmouth is good if you have brittle short fiber wood and you want to be sure it goes where you intend, also handy in chair prone timber, though the effect is marginal. Essentially, its used for when you absolutely don't want the face to close up and stall thereby shearing the hold wood, or causing a chair.

A forth unmentioned would be a block face, which is were the humboldt originated from, you take a full on square chunk out rather then a sloping cut, its really a lot of work to make happen so its rarely used unless on very big timber or if you want the butt to sit down on the stump and not tear up ground in front of said stump, can be handy for falling over paved or sensitive areas, though a modified humboldt, which is a normal humboldyt with a fat chunk takin out of the leading edge is a whole lot less work, and you don't need to be as accurate with the block cuts to get the same results

I still don't get the question here. I went back to the OP's photos, and there definitely are two stems there, there is an obvious layer of bark between them shown in the notch cut. 95% of the notch has been cut in the smaller left stem, 5% in the main stem.

Then there was a back cut in the main stem that proceeded until *something* broke the main stem off, with a barber chair. I have no idea how the assembly held until the cut to the barber chair was made.

Perhaps the left stem was removed first, I don't know--but if it was, then there is insufficient notch in the main stem before the back cut was started. With that approach anything can--and did--happen.

I'm just not seeing any surprise here. It looks to me that there were two stems and they should have been taken down separately. What am I missing?

I'm sorry I did not give more detail in my original post. The smaller-diameter trunk was cut first, and I was not thinking about it at all when I made my post. It seems it offers some clues to you experts, but for me, it was long gone when I got the chair on the bigger trunk.

 

[kdjacob2000]

I've felled many 100s, and perhaps over 1,000, dead ash over the past 7 years and haven't had a barber chair yet. I also felled a lot of snags that had broken off mid stem or where the top had broken off, and cut and bucked many fallen or leaning ash.

For the vast majority of the standing trees and snags I used the GOL technique, a short summery of which is: 70° open face notch the length of which is about 80% of the diameter, bore cut to establish the hinge, wedge, cut the trigger, pound wedges as needed. The trees I cut ranged from a few inches DBH up to about 30" DBH. They ranged from just barely alive to well decayed. Smaller trees generally didn't involve the bore cut. Some were back cut first, wedged and then notched. Limb locked trees were felled together. Some hazardous trees were knocked over with other trees. In some cases trees were left standing to be handled by nature when the dangers of cutting outweighed the risks of the tree falling on it's own.

Assessing the condition and lean of each and every tree is important. The site hazards and targets need to be assessed. Escape routes need to be planned. Having different cutting techniques available in your skill set is important too.

"70° open face notch the length of which is about 80% of the diameter, bore cut to establish the hinge, wedge, cut the trigger, pound wedges as needed."

An Ernest Hemingway description of the process if I've ever heard one...

 

[kdjacob2000]

From looking at your stump, I have to agree with some of the other folks that the face cut isn't deep enough. This not for the sake of a deep face cut but from the perspective that the length of the face cut should be about 80% of the diameter of the tree when viewed from the face cut. Taking my best estimate from the 3rd photo in the series, it looks like the length of the hinge is closer to 60% of the diameter than to 80%. With the short hinge you have to "lift" more of the tree to get it to fall and I'm pretty sure that is where the barber chair was triggered. I suggest continuing to use the open face cut, increase your hinge length to about 80% and continue using the bore cut to establish the hinge.

I don't know what saw you are using but for most of the better saws if you hold the handle bar in the curve the saw will naturally hang such that you will get about a 70° angle. Not the best camera angle perhaps but this image shows it in practice. Play with hand placement a bit and you'll find the sweet spot.... Make the top cut first and then the bottom cut (which should be horizontal/level) and meet the top cut without over cuts. Clean up the notch as needed to not have overcuts.

View attachment 976098

Excellent points. Tomorrow, I'll go out and make some measurements, and more photos if necessary, and get back to you. I'm hoping I wasn't as far off as 60% of DBH instead of 80%. We'll see...

 

[Jed1124]

Ol’ RandyMac would had some fun with this thread back in the day….