Dangerous barber chair felling ash infected with emerald ash borer

[northmanlogging]

That is a good way to get hurt cutting an uprooted tree. I always cut the root ball off first.

its windblow, the tensions are largely unknown to us, yes cutting the stump wad off is usually a good idea, but is it prone to rolling over or back? does the stem have side pressure, so that when the but is released will it whip around, killing the cutter? we simply don't know.

More often then not, starting from the top and working your way back is safer, at least then one end of what you are cutting doesn't have as much energy in it and can be more predictable. worst case the stump rights itself but you are well out of the way.

what dude should have done is relieve cut the bottom of said tree so that it had room to move some, however we again, were not there.

 

[northmanlogging]

As promised, here are some measurements on the stump that allowed me to calculate the face cut angle, and the hinge width as a percentage of DBH.

The face cut target is 20° and the the hinge width target is 80%.

Without claiming that game of logging is always the correct way to take down a barber-chair prone recently-dead ash tree -- or hopefully without risking being called an ashgol -- I think it's fair to say that at least I cut close to the target and close to my intent.

Also included are two shots that show that if there was any lean it was minimal (look at the angle of the barber chair) and that the smaller trunk probably was not a factor in the felling of the larger trunk.

Curious to know if this stimulates any more thoughts.

Otherwise, this has been really fun and information and I thank you all.

So, it does appear that you bore cut it, at least from pic #3
but I will say again the face cut was just too shallow. another inch or 3 and ya would of been into the rotten guts, which would reduce tension and possibly eliminate the chair, doesn't mean it wouldn't of happened, just more likely as not.

Goes to show though, that even if you do everything "correct" it can and will go wrong.

 

[Westboastfaller]

Scary things happen while bucking too. The mill had shut down and everybody was out cutting firewood. This blowdown was flat on the ground and laid off mill workers were working on it when I went by in the morning. When I came back by later, they were gone and the tree was like this. Blowdown needs a bit of studying before cutting sometimes. Cutting off the root wad might have been the way to go instead of top down.
View attachment 976579

He just didn't under buck. Still would have broke the bottom out without a notch with all that pressure. Always go 4ft past spec measurement on cedar poles and buck it first when top is suspended..for this reason.

 

[Fireman Bill]

Hey all,

I’m a chainsaw instructor and i too was taught the Swedish way of logging. I also have learned from many who where not taught that way. So I’ve compiled all that I’ve been taught and learned over the years into my classes. One thing i know is, once you think you know whats going to happen you’ve lost the game. Now these dead dry ash trees act like a hard frozen pine tree. They love to separate just behind the hinge and barber chair. I had a series of barber chairs from these dead ash trees and kinda got pissed off. So i started experimenting with techniques. I found a way thats almost 100 percent in preventing an explosive barber chair on these as trees. I cut my face using the traditional notch, making sure i have a clean as a whistle hinge cut, 80 percent face cut is fine (look at the front and the cut should be 80 % of the diameter), 70ish degrees is fine and I’m always keeping in mind my 45 deg escape route. Now go above the hinge about 12” and bore cut making sure not to go past the front of the hinge and about 4-6” behind the hinge. Now drop down and bore cut your tree. Set up your hinge square and leave 10% holding wood on the back being careful to know if the tree is sound on the back with no punk wood. If no wedges needed cut the back holding wood and leave at your 45 angle. 36 straight ash trees and no barber chair yet. Yes yet. Anyway just my take on the knowledge I’ve gained thru the years. I have 59 ash trees to fell in the next few weeks some are big some are 12”-16” which can be the ones that get ya. The darn dead limbs above ya are what i hate. I tend to try to set my hinge up where i can stand avoiding the dangerous limbs above. I never cut alone and use my partner as a spotter who can alert me if something is seen sketchy. I hope everyone stays safe and even as an older dude i seem to learn everyday………..See ya……

 

[catbuster]

For anyone reading this, at any time: Don’t do anything the guy above me said he did.

There should only be one open kerf on each side of the tree.

Also, frozen evergreens are brittle, but the long fibers generally will hold the stem together.

 

[northmanlogging]

Hey all,

I’m a chainsaw instructor and i too was taught the Swedish way of logging. I also have learned from many who where not taught that way. So I’ve compiled all that I’ve been taught and learned over the years into my classes. One thing i know is, once you think you know whats going to happen you’ve lost the game. Now these dead dry ash trees act like a hard frozen pine tree. They love to separate just behind the hinge and barber chair. I had a series of barber chairs from these dead ash trees and kinda got pissed off. So i started experimenting with techniques. I found a way thats almost 100 percent in preventing an explosive barber chair on these as trees. I cut my face using the traditional notch, making sure i have a clean as a whistle hinge cut, 80 percent face cut is fine (look at the front and the cut should be 80 % of the diameter), 70ish degrees is fine and I’m always keeping in mind my 45 deg escape route. Now go above the hinge about 12” and bore cut making sure not to go past the front of the hinge and about 4-6” behind the hinge. Now drop down and bore cut your tree. Set up your hinge square and leave 10% holding wood on the back being careful to know if the tree is sound on the back with no punk wood. If no wedges needed cut the back holding wood and leave at your 45 angle. 36 straight ash trees and no barber chair yet. Yes yet. Anyway just my take on the knowledge I’ve gained thru the years. I have 59 ash trees to fell in the next few weeks some are big some are 12”-16” which can be the ones that get ya. The darn dead limbs above ya are what i hate. I tend to try to set my hinge up where i can stand avoiding the dangerous limbs above. I never cut alone and use my partner as a spotter who can alert me if something is seen sketchy. I hope everyone stays safe and even as an older dude i seem to learn everyday………..See ya……

Please ignore this. >>> "I cut my face using the traditional notch, making sure i have a clean as a whistle hinge cut, 80 percent face cut is fine (look at the front and the cut should be 80 % of the diameter), 70ish degrees is fine and I’m always keeping in mind my 45 deg escape route. Now go above the hinge about 12” and bore cut making sure not to go past the front of the hinge and about 4-6” behind the hinge."<<<

unless you like being dead, or crippled

 

[GrizG]

For anyone reading this, at any time: Don’t do anything the guy above me said he did.

There should only be one open kerf on each side of the tree.

Also, frozen evergreens are brittle, but the long fibers generally will hold the stem together.

I didn’t read that post as saying he was doing anything but a bore about a foot above the hinge and as far toward the notch as the front of the hinge. I didn’t read it as making a full back cut at that location. That bore would serve as a stop cut for the split if a barber chair developed down at the hinge back cut. I’d be interested in hearing from the poster of that technique about my interpretation of what he wrote…

 

[rwoods]

So it seems from the responses so far that ash has a propensity to barber chair. That's helpful.

Let me pose a question to the community:

Consider an straight-up 20" DBH ash. Is there a recommended felling technique anyone can offer that minimizes the chances of barber chairing on its way down?

(I'm deliberately excluding leaners, rot, etc. to see if there's any consensus on chair-minimizing felling technique.)

Thanks!

I bring no credentials to this question beyond a tab bit of cutting dying and dead ash. Practically every ash presents differently, and all dead ones can be plain dangerous. Much of the time you won't know what it will do until it does it, so other than that take my comments with a grain of salt.

I don't see any indication that stem stalled or even that the hinge flexed at all, I believe the chair was likely a result of a hinge that was too thick for this particular tree making a chair easier than flexing the hinge.

Take a look at woodfarmer's pictures, he is felling larger diameter ash with a hinge proportionately much smaller than yours. Much of the ash I have cut this year is 24" to 32" with leans or limb loads; I am constantly amazed with sound dead ash how small the hinge must be before the stem will begin to move. I have no particular expertise, but I have had only one ash barber chair though my cuts were textbook unlike much of my usual cutting. Upon examination, I noted the tree had an undetected "dry rot" streak on one side. I didn't see any defect on the backside of your chair.

The ability to establish the hinge is one of the touted benefits of boring cutting; however, it is only a benefit if the hinge is the correct for the tree being cut - a fact you usually won't know until your saw is out of the cut. Of course, if there is no movement, you can get back in the cut and thin it - but obviously with your tree it moved enough to chair. Whether or not, a forward cut would have been fast enough (a thinner hinge) to prevent a chair we will never know.

A lot of words to say, dead ash is unpredictable and there is no fail-safe method or formulae. A contrary mentality is an accident waiting to happen.

Ron

 

[catbuster]

I didn’t read that post as saying he was doing anything but a bore about a foot above the hinge and as far toward the notch as the front of the hinge. I didn’t read it as making a full back cut at that location. That bore would serve as a stop cut for the split if a barber chair developed down at the hinge back cut. I’d be interested in hearing from the poster of that technique about my interpretation of what he wrote…

It reads an awful lot to me like he’s recommending there be two back cuts, one one foot above the other.

That’s not smart.

 

[Jhenderson]

Greetings from Idaho. I think some GOL techniques have their place in a tough spot… But boring every tree just because… seems dumb.

It is dumb. Thats why they Don’t teach it.

 

[Fireman Bill]

Im a power line hazard tree faller in Santa Cruz and any tree or large branch with some lean can barber and should be bore cut. Face cut doesnt really matter if theres enough lean to barber. Theres better vids on Youtube but Im not cutting timber for $ so I like a High angle top cut to keep the tree steady all the way down and have a good look at how good my holding wood is. With a diseased tree a shallow face is often best as the sapwood is more flexible. For the backcut you bore in (about an inch or two above the bottom of the face) begin in about the middle of the back cut with the lower quadrant of the tip of the bar, plunge through, now carefully come up to the face leaving your hinge set up perfect now back out leaving at least 10% sound wood at the back of the tree. If there is side lean you may want to start in the back strap and as you work up to the face set some wedges. Then you can either just keep going out the back or pull out, set wedges and hit the back strap under full power a tiny bit above your bore cut. Be ready to run 'cause shes gonna go quick. Voila, safe falling brother! I dont know if its a game when losing means dying. Heres a video with everything you need to know

I was taught instructor school by this guys partner at Husqvarna. Best chainsaw class I’ve ever had.

 

[Fireman Bill]

It reads an awful lot to me like he’s recommending there be two back cuts, one one foot above the other.

That’s not smart.

No i not making any back cuts. Simply another bore cut above the 1st.

 

[Fireman Bill]

Please ignore this. >>> "I cut my face using the traditional notch, making sure i have a clean as a whistle hinge cut, 80 percent face cut is fine (look at the front and the cut should be 80 % of the diameter), 70ish degrees is fine and I’m always keeping in mind my 45 deg escape route. Now go above the hinge about 12” and bore cut making sure not to go past the front of the hinge and about 4-6” behind the hinge."<<<

unless you like being dead, or crippled

Ive had nothing but good experiences with this method. Nothing is different except a small bore cut above the first. Nothing im saying raises the danger level above any other bore cut technique. The deep face cuts that some are recommending are dangerous and not needed. Everyone needs to decide what works for them and i have found this to work great. Heck it takes practice at every trade and veering from the standard or everyday cut is hard for some. Ill give my number to anyone who’d like it as i am real and confident about my profession. If one refuses to learn and decides he is the one and only then that individual is truly done growing in life. Just another dead tree.

 

[Jed1124]

This is getting more painful by the post.

 

[catbuster]

No i not making any back cuts. Simply another bore cut above the 1st.

Alright-Explain to me exactly what that upper bore cut does, exactly. As best I can figure, it’s just another crippled spot in the trunk. No better than a patch of rot, woodpecker hole or any other void. You’ve also cut the tension side of the tree, it’s not like the thing is going to close up.

Let’s say the strap left on it is rotten. Once the tree moves it comes apart. That gives the tree an opening to go backwards as it would open, because, well, there’s nothing to hold it together. One would think it would cause a stress riser and cause a tree to split along its fibers. This would be the definition of a barberchair, no?

I’m just a little confused about why someone would intentionally cause any more weakening of the stem beyond what is necessary to put it on the ground.

I also don’t care who your instructor was. Dangerous practice is dangerous practice. Lastly, a lot of experience using bad practice is bad experience. There are a lot of people who have just been lucky their entire life and not been bitten. Being bitten sucks, so it’s best to unlearn bad habits as quickly a possible.

 

[northmanlogging]

Ive had nothing but good experiences with this method. Nothing is different except a small bore cut above the first. Nothing im saying raises the danger level above any other bore cut technique. The deep face cuts that some are recommending are dangerous and not needed. Everyone needs to decide what works for them and i have found this to work great. Heck it takes practice at every trade and veering from the standard or everyday cut is hard for some. Ill give my number to anyone who’d like it as i am real and confident about my profession. If one refuses to learn and decides he is the one and only then that individual is truly done growing in life. Just another dead tree.

Stick to putting out fires, and Ill stick to cutting trees down

First you claim to be a chainsaw instructor, then you claim to be taught by a husqvarna dealers buddies' cousin which is it?

What you are advocating is foolish to the extreme, not only does it give additional fracture points for the chair to form, if it doesn't cause a chair, its just a waste of time, to say nothing of too shallow of a face cut. IF YOU WERE AN ACTUAL INSTRUCTOR WORTH THE TITLE, YOU WOULD ALREADY KNOW THIS.

Should we start on escape paths? you don't simply keep one in mind YOU CLEAR A MINIMUM OF 2 BEFORE YOU START CUTTING A TREE any tree for that matter. Or how some instructor has had a series of close calls that you are clearly lucky to survive, yet you had to invent some new absolutely BS remedy for? news flash chuckles, there are lots of actual remedies that do in fact work, many have been discussed above

this isn't a matter of what works for the individual blah blah blah, or freedom to express ones own stupidity, its a matter of giving absolutely bull **** unfounded and possibly completely made up advice to folks that could potentially be killed by following said advice.

Frankly if you are passing yourself off as some instructor and gods forbid taking money for said services, when someone gets killed using your dumb ass ********, you will ultimately be responsible.

 

[GrizG]

As promised, here are some measurements on the stump that allowed me to calculate the face cut angle, and the hinge width as a percentage of DBH.

The face cut target is 20° and the the hinge width target is 80%.

Without claiming that game of logging is always the correct way to take down a barber-chair prone recently-dead ash tree -- or hopefully without risking being called an ashgol -- I think it's fair to say that at least I cut close to the target and close to my intent.

Also included are two shots that show that if there was any lean it was minimal (look at the angle of the barber chair) and that the smaller trunk probably was not a factor in the felling of the larger trunk.

Curious to know if this stimulates any more thoughts.

Otherwise, this has been really fun and information and I thank you all.

Image 7 caught my attention. I enlarged it and it appears that there is an old wound on the close side and perhaps a knot on the far side of the splinter sticking up off the stump. Can you confirm that? If that is so perhaps that particular tree had a weak vertical area fairly close above the notch/back-cut that failed and caused that particular tree to barber chair...

 

[kdjacob2000]

Hi GrizG.

I see what you're seeing in the photo but won't be back on site until Saturday, when I'll investigate and get back you.

 

[rwoods]

Hi GrizG.

I see what you're seeing in the photo but won't be back on site until Saturday, when I'll investigate and get back you.

While you are at it, check the right side of the standing stub - the fiber structure at the split looks different than the other, possibly dry rot or otherwise weaken?

Ron

 

[Fireman Bill]

Stick to putting out fires, and Ill stick to cutting trees down

First you claim to be a chainsaw instructor, then you claim to be taught by a husqvarna dealers buddies' cousin which is it?

What you are advocating is foolish to the extreme, not only does it give additional fracture points for the chair to form, if it doesn't cause a chair, its just a waste of time, to say nothing of too shallow of a face cut. IF YOU WERE AN ACTUAL INSTRUCTOR WORTH THE TITLE, YOU WOULD ALREADY KNOW THIS.

Should we start on escape paths? you don't simply keep one in mind YOU CLEAR A MINIMUM OF 2 BEFORE YOU START CUTTING A TREE any tree for that matter. Or how some instructor has had a series of close calls that you are clearly lucky to survive, yet you had to invent some new absolutely BS remedy for? news flash chuckles, there are lots of actual remedies that do in fact work, many have been discussed above

this isn't a matter of what works for the individual blah blah blah, or freedom to express ones own stupidity, its a matter of giving absolutely bull **** unfounded and possibly completely made up advice to folks that could potentially be killed by following said advice.

Frankly if you are passing yourself off as some instructor and gods forbid taking money for said services, when someone gets killed using your dumb ass ********, you will ultimately be responsible.

First of all I’m not passing myself as anyone. I am a chainsaw coach and instructor who takes pride in everything I do. Secondly I’m not teaching what I have said to anyone. I was merely saying what I’ve been trying and was working on dead Ash trees. How do you think the different techniques are brought about in the world. Like the tongue and grove cut, the bypass cuts and even the bore cutting??? I’ve not attacked you in anyway so I’d appreciate the same courtesy.
Also Husqvarna’s Tim Ard (spelling) did a series of instructor classes. Years ago and his partner went one direction teaching and Tim went to another area teaching. The class i took was conducted at Fort AP Hill in VA. Great class. Have a great day.