Dangerous "unseen" high point attachment!!!

[Canyonbc]

Really...

wow...ya sounds like a myth to me...if those numbers hold true...heck even 1, in 1,000

thanks for the information on that

 

[arboralliance]

Ah yes...

Who cares? I have climbed trees beside powerlines that have been climbed before, and will be climbed again, with spurs. Its pretty much BS, a myth for the most part, maybe a few trees have died, probably 1 in 100 000.

More candid honesty from clearance, just what I like to see...opcorn:

I am in the same boat as you there clearance, it is unavoidable in "volume" comercial/utility envireonments where the contract holder is prepared to wear the flack if there ever is any!? First branches start at 150-180' and i gotta fell 250' dead spars n 100'+ Acacia melanoxylons even to just spike up the trunk, any tw!t thinking he can go into the scrub and do any more than look :censored: with a big shot is in dreamland and thats not around power, all the more so around power, in trees that size where you can't clear a path up the trunk let alone for a "throw line" keep in mind your climbing an upper story tree and standing in the forest debris/mulch which is usually 6'+ deep then above you are ferns then under story trees then mid story trees...

I have seen trees spiked repeatedly and you would never know until you are right over the markings which have healed/caloused within 3-4 months to end up looking like any normal abnormality on the bark, along with the multitude (1000's) of other natural marks...

On a 300'+ tree 2-3m dia' i compare it to acupuncture on a human if a 6' man spikes a 300' tree its less than the acupuncture equivalent...

However I never endorse this practice and in some trees that produce excess kino/sap it is totally inappropriate, or trees that would be disfigured by this method of access...

Perhaps another thread another time... I certainly have a bit to say and a bit of experience on the subject...:monkey:

 

[TreeStyle]

First real work climb

my first real work climb was on a large approx. 35 - 40m Euc. Simple really, climb to the first branch at 20m then rope the end of the branch off itself, at least took the limb back to an upright.

my boss said spike it, i knew no different. i was horrified 4 weeks later when i drove past to take a look at the tree and saw heaps of keno weeping out of spike wounds. i havent seen the tree since. I've had customers who have called me in to assess their tree when they spotted the tiniest amount of exudate weeping from an insect induced wound on the tree. Can only inmagine what clients must think when you finish spiking their tree and days later it looks like the tree might bleed to death.

Honesty anyone who spikes a tree when they prune it, well it just shouldn't be done.

 

[arboralliance]

my first real work climb was on a large approx. 35 - 40m Euc. Simple really, climb to the first branch at 20m then rope the end of the branch off itself, at least took the limb back to an upright.

my boss said spike it, i knew no different. i was horrified 4 weeks later when i drove past to take a look at the tree and saw heaps of keno weeping out of spike wounds. i havent seen the tree since. I've had customers who have called me in to assess their tree when they spotted the tiniest amount of exudate weeping from an insect induced wound on the tree. Can only inmagine what clients must think when you finish spiking their tree and days later it looks like the tree might bleed to death.

Honesty anyone who spikes a tree when they prune it, well it just shouldn't be done.

Well 2 points I get you on there big fella!opcorn:

Firstly I agree with you as can be read in my previous post. clearance and I are talking about middle of know where giant trees where the spur barely makes it through the fibre and only after 150' do you begin to pierce phloem, xylem or cambium and these are trees that don't/won/t "bleed" as such, as stated above.

Secondly, what about the Bignoniaceae you and Camo climbed for me, Logan City on the same property as the Iron Bark we saved, or the beautiful job you did on that leaning Euc' at Pimpama when I had you and a few of the others finishing up your climbing prac... Are they not some of the first trees you worked on? Or had you done that tree before these?:monkey:

Was that a "Classic" Euc' that I may have done a report on? Camo was witness to the same on one I did a report on digusting really...

 

[arboralliance]

Ah, right...

Well, that's the point I was making. 45 minutes killed me that day and I was really pissed. I generally have my line ready to go in 10 minutes or less, but some days... :bang:
I don't often clean a crown in under an hour, sometimes much longer. I've got you on continuous time in a tree... 9-1/2 hours on fine pruning a big water oak... it was definitely over the top but lowering big pieces without a groundie slows me waaay down. I hear complaints about my speed fairly often... and really couldn't care less. I'll build my speed over time but never will it be my first priority. I've been climbing trees for 10 months now so expectations for my speed are lower than a highly experienced climber. Frankly though, I'm sick of hauling ass all the time, that's why I'm in treework to begin with. I ran my own businesses for 11 years and 5 years and did lots of production work... I hated it. Quit my last real job because my blood pressure was hanging around 180/140... not an exaggeration, I was ready to stroke out. At 47 I'm ready to keep a more peaceful pace. Today it was three 100' plus white oaks averaging 70' spreads that had never been cleaned before (lots of old storm damage), some of it had to be roped (without a groundsman); that took 7 hours including cleanup. So wail away on that if you want but I made $450 working alone... that's acceptable to me.

Some days I'm faster than others but I'm always a perfectionist, blame my parents, I've tried to change and I can't. Production and precision are inversely related and I lean hard to precision, not just in climbing but in practically everything. I'm trying to ease up on the perfectionist thing and I think that will ultimately be the big difference, I can move around most trees pretty well at this point. I prefer to work by the job, not by the hour, specifically so I can take my time. I'm about craft, not production so I seek customers who are like minded. I don't want or expect to work for a big production outfit.

The main guy I contract climb for is pretty patient, he rags on me but it's mostly good natured... and he knows I always give my best effort regardless. I think he wants to see me get faster but not at the expense of safety or mental health.

I wasn't making a statement I was asking a question Blinky... I have been whipped like a slave in commercial climbing by all sorts of contract bosses cuz they have miffed a big contract price and reckon to grind me is the answer, insidious BS in my books but i got a kid to feed...

I am the same, i enjoy climbing, I certainly have had years where I haven't loved it anymore and turned it back around so i am lovin it again, i see plenty of tough, fast, hard climbers who obviously don't like bein in the tree, a real shame...

I worked in Automotive manufacturing for 5 years and at a service station for 18 months before that so on and off afternoon and night shift nearly 7 years in disgusting carcinogenic environs while workin days, I love bein out there with those beauties and could never go back "inside"...

Ran my own business on and off since 16 (tree work), so 20 years now, relate there also...

Recently spent 4.5 and 5.5 hours in individual trees, well 5.5 hr one I swang out to another lobby growing way up through and above the canopy of the 80'+ Turpentine with 70'+ spread i was detailin, neeways this lobby was 100' pole with bout 7 small limbs, kicked out sideways towards fence etc at 40 odd foot, called out for my spikes, ran up it TIP outa other tree, tied out head, side line n pull line, back down n felled the top 65' out sweet but groundies ????ed it pullin it way hard and across another tree darn it, swing back and keep goin with the deadwood + detail of the old Turp'...opcorn:

4.5 hr was a 5 trunked camphor D+D+WD with a weird growin Euc' (growin out from under the Camph' "forest") off up hill, I swung out and D+D+WD it also, hope to be able to do those "in tree" times when I am 80...

Done tons of self lowering here too Blinky, did a huge euc' up Mt Tambo' last year rope it all meself hard up against two houses, couldnt even get the groundy (the lopper who called me in to do the job) to drop the clothesline out the back of one of the houses for when I started blockin down the 18"+ dia' leading/co-dom' limb so I shouted out ":censored: it mate i'll jus' :censored: throw the blocks over the clothes line as well!!" (turned a 30' throw into a 45' throw!) got what i had to off it so i could put 115' of it into the 120' long garden, side line, pull line, sacrifice the little palm and a bit of the Pittosporum hedge at back of garden and squeeze 1.5 dbh x 115' trunk with apical intact n huge stubs between brand new retaining wall, water tank, shed, two houses, other trees, other hedge, sweet all done and thats why i get paid $1250 for the two short days it took to do it, originally got called there to take the co-dom' limb off and some lowers then decided to go the removal so, all with groundy jamin the saw on every cut, EVERY CUT!! (musta bin hundreds of cuts was hard not to laugh at the poor ol' bugga dont know who was doin it tougher me or him:hmm3grin2orange: to this day I have not been able to work out how one person can make the same mistake so many hundreds of times and not learn from it...) as i lowered the limbs to him and he diced them up between the two houses still rigged...Think those days coulda' gone past 8.5 hrs didn't wanna look at the time, you know how it is...

Yeh private is the go, love workin' the job, also love prepn' for the comps' and Arb' camps, heaps of volunteerin' for lotsa' dif' orgs' has kept me sane, fun times...

 

[jomoco]

Bogus Advice in a Professional Forum

I am not a arborist to any extent...i am a college student who does brush clearing

but still in any business i think most woul agree safety 1st

my question to you with experince in the field..

Ex. you are trimming up a 125 ft euc. and you spike it because there is no where to tie in....please use your imagination...how "bad" or what permanent damage can come from spiking a tree on a trim like this??

thanks
canyon

I truly hope you don't take some of the uh ( professional? ) advice you've been getting from some of these guys. The ISA may be pretty dense about some of their policies, but they are dead on accurate about saying you shall not use gaffs when pruning live trees period!

Yes it takes great physical stamina and training to do it safely, yes there are expedient hacks that ignore this rule for profit at the tree's expense, no they're not pros and they know it.

There's no such thing as a live Euc or any other live tree that can't be pruned properly by a professional arborist that knows his business, whether he's certified or not doesn't matter to the tree, just lazy inspectors sitting on their butts BSing with each other.

jomoco

 

[clearance]

I truly hope you don't take some of the uh ( professional? ) advice you've been getting from some of these guys. The ISA may be pretty dense about some of their policies, but they are dead on accurate about saying you shall not use gaffs when pruning live trees period!

Yes it takes great physical stamina and training to do it safely, yes there are expedient hacks that ignore this rule for profit at the tree's expense, no they're not pros and they know it.

There's no such thing as a live Euc or any other live tree that can't be pruned properly by a professional arborist that knows his business, whether he's certified or not doesn't matter to the tree, just lazy inspectors sitting on their butts BSing with each other.

jomoco

Now this is funny, and also contains a lot of bs. Period? Listen up, you come first, always, remember that, you, not the tree, or any tree. I have climbed big trees out in the bush that could not be spurless climbed (big red cedars with drooping small branches for like 80', starting at about 20' from the ground, for example). Like I would want to anyways, its a very gay looking way to climb, in my opinion. I have also climbed thousands of trees beside powerlines, some of which were climbed before, almost all will be climbed again. All utility guys in this province (British Columbia, big place, bigger than Texas) climb with spurs, always. So how come trees get climbed again, if you believe the party line they should all be dead from spurring. Bunk.

 

[jomoco]

Hey there Clearance!

Now this is funny, and also contains a lot of bs. Period? Listen up, you come first, always, remember that, you, not the tree, or any tree. I have climbed big trees out in the bush that could not be spurless climbed (big red cedars with drooping small branches for like 80', starting at about 20' from the ground, for example). Like I would want to anyways, its a very gay looking way to climb, in my opinion. I have also climbed thousands of trees beside powerlines, some of which were climbed before, almost all will be climbed again. All utility guys in this province (British Columbia, big place, bigger than Texas) climb with spurs, always. So how come trees get climbed again, if you believe the party line they should all be dead from spurring. Bunk.

As a practical matter we both know that climbing big conifers with gaffs has very little effect on them due to their tremendously thick phloem and bark layers, and that's why as a production based climber you get away with it.

To extrapolate that into advice for a newbie climber in San Diego where the only redwoods are puny little things that are already stressed is another matter entirely. You know it and so do I. I've spent most of my career in SoCal, and when I'm pruning, I do it to ISA and ANSI standards, not because I give a fig about the ISA, but rather that I like to think of myself as a pro that cares about the trees health. You'd be surprised about how many clients here are well educated about arboriculture and are willing to pay to have their trees done right.

I'd love to come up to B.C. and have you show me any tree that I couldn't prune to standard with no gaffs, I have a pnuematic bag gun that can shoot well in excess of 100 feet. I've been up in Seattle recently in some fair size Firs, pruned them for windload with no gaffs, no big deal. I specialize in takedowns, but that doesn't mean I can't prune to standards, it just means there's more money in removals.

So gaff your trees to your hearts content, but try and be a little more circumspect about advising newbies in SoCal to do the same, it won't help them get very far here.

jomoco

 

[treeseer]

Now boys, Be Nice.

You are both ANSI-compliant, because different standards apply to different work in different places. jomoco why not give ANSI a good read before you do any more fussing and fighting ok? Later you can help us understand how thick phloem layers make spiking less injurious.
And you are right, clearance could stop telling people across the continent that spikes are ok everywhere, but he is not a hack.

Now both of you go take a nap and let someone else get this thread back on track.

 

[clearance]

You are both ANSI-compliant, because different standards apply to different work in different places. jomoco why not give ANSI a good read before you do any more fussing and fighting ok?

Now both of you go take a nap and let someone else get this thread back on track.

ANSI don't matter here, at all.

 

[clearance]

As a practical matter we both know that climbing big conifers with gaffs has very little effect on them due to their tremendously thick phloem and bark layers, and that's why as a production based climber you get away with it.

To extrapolate that into advice for a newbie climber in San Diego where the only redwoods are puny little things that are already stressed is another matter entirely. You know it and so do I. I've spent most of my career in SoCal, and when I'm pruning, I do it to ISA and ANSI standards, not because I give a fig about the ISA, but rather that I like to think of myself as a pro that cares about the trees health. You'd be surprised about how many clients here are well educated about arboriculture and are willing to pay to have their trees done right.

I'd love to come up to B.C. and have you show me any tree that I couldn't prune to standard with no gaffs, I have a pnuematic bag gun that can shoot well in excess of 100 feet. I've been up in Seattle recently in some fair size Firs, pruned them for windload with no gaffs, no big deal. I specialize in takedowns, but that doesn't mean I can't prune to standards, it just means there's more money in removals.

So gaff your trees to your hearts content, but try and be a little more circumspect about advising newbies in SoCal to do the same, it won't help them get very far here.

jomoco

I forgot to add, when in the bush you have to wear caulks, can you spurless climb with caulks? Pretty hard on the rope I figure.

 

[jomoco]

You really got me there Clearance!

I forgot to add, when in the bush you have to wear caulks, can you spurless climb with caulks? Pretty hard on the rope I figure.

Gee, I wonder if there are any other ascending techniques other than footlocking?

Oh yeah, that guy climbing the worlds tallest tree video comes to mind, seems like he made it over 370 feet, must have been trick photography huh!

Yeah that's a real head scratcher!

jomoco

 

[clearance]

Gee, I wonder if there are any other ascending techniques other than footlocking?

Oh yeah, that guy climbing the worlds tallest tree video comes to mind, seems like he made it over 370 feet, must have been trick photography huh!

Yeah that's a real head scratcher!

jomoco

Try hiking over felled old growth on a steep side with all your stuff, rope, saw, pack, etc., its not easy. It would be a lot harder with slingshots or other spurless rope setting tools. Plus, you would be fired for being so slow. Anyways, I am just a lowly hack, you are a mighty arborist, I will go back to my cave now.

 

[jomoco]

Come on Clearance!

Try hiking over felled old growth on a steep side with all your stuff, rope, saw, pack, etc., its not easy. It would be a lot harder with slingshots or other spurless rope setting tools. Plus, you would be fired for being so slow. Anyways, I am just a lowly hack, you are a mighty arborist, I will go back to my cave now.

I'm sure you're a great arborist who'd smoke me in the trees in your neck of the woods, my only beef with you is your applying your deepwoods standards to a suburban SoCal setting, they're totally different animals that require totally different approaches.

Happy Fathers Day, and the best of luck to you!

jomoco

 

[arboralliance]

Actually...

I'm sure you're a great arborist who'd smoke me in the trees in your neck of the woods, my only beef with you is your applying your deepwoods standards to a suburban SoCal setting, they're totally different animals that require totally different approaches.

Happy Fathers Day, and the best of luck to you!

jomoco

You've insulted more than clearance here jomoco...

Nowhere can I read that clearance is encouraging anyone to climb with spikes other than discussing how he does in the conditions he does, same here...

A very bold statement you've made jomoco, very, very bold...

You seriously think that guy climbs those "claimed" worlds tallest trees, day in, day out and feeds his family from it?

Had my "forest" groundy make a big grunting sighing groaning noise one day at 6am after the two hour drive into the mountain scrub, I turned around an shot "whats up with you?" he exclaimed "I am never going to give you grief about climbing again!", "Why's that?" I retorted, he was half carrying - dragging my rope bag and went on to exclaim "you carry all this rope, and all your self rescue gear, first aid, prunning saw, secatuers, harness, 20'+ steel core pole strap, SPIKES AND CHAINSAW up and down these monsters all day and i can hardly pick up your rope bag!!"


NO-ONE ON THIS PLANET EARNS A LIVING DOING WHAT CLEARANCE AND I DO IN THE TREES WE DO IT IN WITHOUT SPIKES, NO-ONE!

ENUF SAID!!!

 

[jomoco]

Poor little Darlings

You've insulted more than clearance here jomoco...

Nowhere can I read that clearance is encouraging anyone to climb with spikes other than discussing how he does in the conditions he does, same here...

A very bold statement you've made jomoco, very, very bold...

You seriously think that guy climbs those "claimed" worlds tallest trees, day in, day out and feeds his family from it?

Had my "forest" groundy make a big grunting sighing groaning noise one day at 6am after the two hour drive into the mountain scrub, I turned around an shot "whats up with you?" he exclaimed "I am never going to give you grief about climbing again!", "Why's that?" I retorted, he was half carrying - dragging my rope bag and went on to exclaim "you carry all this rope, and all your self rescue gear, first aid, prunning saw, secatuers, harness, 20'+ steel core pole strap, SPIKES AND CHAINSAW up and down these monsters all day and i can hardly pick up your rope bag!!"


NO-ONE ON THIS PLANET EARNS A LIVING DOING WHAT CLEARANCE AND I DO IN THE TREES WE DO IT IN WITHOUT SPIKES, NO-ONE!

ENUF SAID!!!

My heart bleeds for you big tough guys giving bogus advice to newbies that will backfire on them.

If you can't give professional advice that's applicable to the persons question and location, then stay silent. The worlds bigger than your little neck of the woods, and your advice sucks in 99% of the world.

If you feel insulted when people disagree with you call 1-800- WaaaaaaH

jomoco

 

[Blinky]

Seems like middle ground is here for the taking guys, why not settle on the fact that sometimes spikes are appropriate and sometimes not.

I doubt spikes kill many trees but they do scar and stress them. I wouldn't dream of spiking a 100 year old beech no matter where i found it just out of respect. I wouldn't spike a 60 year old oak in a residential setting because the scars are potentially worse than the deadwood. If you work in high end neighborhoods, there will be evidence if you spike and it probably means you can can any repeat business goodbye... so there's economical incentive to access with rope too.

You guys talking about 250' trees and giant conifers are outside my experience, I've never climbed a 200' tree... I sure would like to though. If I don't have to spike a pine i won't spike it but I don't trust the lower limbs on a pine for holding a lifeline so if I had to prune a big old pine and couldn't get my rope up into solid green wood, I'd spike it.

Risking a climber's life on a pruning is just as inappropriate as spiking a tree with easy rope access. So to me, you're both right, why not just admit it's not black and white?

 

[woodchux]

My heart bleeds for you big tough guys giving bogus advice to newbies that will backfire on them.

If you can't give professional advice that's applicable to the persons question and location, then stay silent. The worlds bigger than your little neck of the woods, and your advice sucks in 99% of the world.

If you feel insulted when people disagree with you call 1-800- WaaaaaaH

jomoco

Werent you the one telling people to tie in to the crane hook???

 

[jomoco]

Yes that was me

Werent you the one telling people to tie in to the crane hook???

And I'll be tying off to a locked clevis on the hook again this thursday on a nasty oak takedown, the same way I have thousands of times before. However I'm no longer advising others to use my method until I hear back from the ANSI commitee members I've contacted for clarification on my method, even though 4 of those members have assured my method is acceptable to the standard. I'll no longer advise anyone to use my method until the matter is resolved.

What I don't understand is the double standard being applied to me on this.
I correct Begley Tree for incorrectly stating that it's illegal for a climber to tie off to a crane. I give the ANSI standard that clearly states that it is perfectly legal to tie off to a crane and has been for quite some time now. And rather than jumping on your buddy Ralphs case for not knowing what he's talking about, you guys jump down my throat because my method of tying off to the crane is a little different than the standard's preferred TIP.

But unlike Begley I'll admit my method may be questionable, and I'll no longer advise anyone to copy it until the matter is resolved by the ANSI commitee.

Begley never admitted he was wrong, but rather kicked back and let me take the heat for having the audacity to correct a moderator when he's wrong.

I'm willing to learn from any mistakes I make, and more importantly to admit when I'm wrong regardless of how embarrassing it may be.

I like to think that this forum's primary goal is professional quality education and exchange of ideas for both veteran and beginning arborists, atleast that's why I became a member.

This is one of the best arborist forums on the web.

jomoco

 

[Blinky]

Well, I have to tell the story...

Today I was helping a young guy learn more about climbing and chainsaw in the tree... bright kid too, really seemed to enjoy it, very attentive.

Anyway, it was an easy water oak but I decided to shoot a line into the highest central crotch I could see which was only ~40' up. Water oaks are twiggy it wasn't a clear shot... I expected to have to isolate both ends, which I did. Now some other folks showed up, a couple coming briefly and going, a couple working nearby trees with pole tools... it got a little distracting and I'm easily distracted anyway. The upshot is, I failed to bounce test my TIP.

So I'm gonna introduce him to footlocking with doubled ascenders, I hook'em on, back'em up and jumped up a bit to demonstrate how to route the rope on my feet and... plunk! I'm on my butt. Great way to start eh, the kid was all confidence at this point don't you think?

What happened was the 3" co-dominant crotch split and one side gave way completely, later I found a 10" tear through green but coarse grained wood. So, for me, no more 3" TIPS in water oaks... I've used 3" TIPS in white oaks lots of times without a problem.

What's more interesting is that I believed I'd simply sheared off a small secondary that my rope had wrapped around unseen because after picking myself up I pulled on the rope and it stayed put, footlocked up a few feet and bounced tested it really hard, it didn't give a millimeter.

Remembering this thread I went to the car and got my binos to inspect. That's when I noticed the crotch had broken. Further inspection revealed that the broken limb was lodged across another limb and in a smaller crotch... the rope was just across the broken limb.

I pulled it down and decided to just climb from the ground by working my TIP up a bit at a time. No further incidents, we had a good day of climbing and cutting.

Anyway, since this thread is live and the experience was germane I thought I'd mention it.