Dangerous "unseen" high point attachment!!!

[Ekka]

Page 14 Australian Arbor Age Aug/Sept 2006 edition.

Right hand column, second paragraph.

It is important to consider that modern climbing devices and equipment we use are strength tested, that the components that make up a climbing rig are rated to more than the human body weight with shock loading.
Based on bio-mechanics of trees I believe it is not possible to carry out a formulated strength test on a branch one is about to climb, because of the variation on the angle of descent a strength loading test is not likely to work.
In the case of the failed limb the climber and his colleague doubled up with their combined weight and tested the branch which held. From that line of pull the branch was strong enough to hold them, yet failed when the climber's weight became more horizontal to the branch. Regardless technology has yet to devise a formulated strength loading assessment for limbs in a trees crown.

 

[TreeStyle]

Yeah if the Higest Tie in point is out of sight, then safety says to shoot the lower one, climb to it then reset.

Can even set the throw line in the prefered high "TIP" from the ground, then use it to pull climbing line higher when up in the tree where it can be better inspected.

I am only releatively new to the industry (4 yrs). but already i have found myself to sometimes become complacent. we need to continually remind ourselves of the dangers associated with this type of work. This means sometimes settling for a tie in point a few below the one we really want........?

Perhaps Binoculas maybe a new requirement for us all..Do you think though we would be able to accurately judge the integrity and size of branches with them? i'll have to try.

i think the real issue this thread has raised is for us all to not get too complacent or confident. We need to hold onto just a little bit of fear.

Be safe......

 

[arboralliance]

Oh dear...

The real worrying thing here is there's only three honest people on this forum, apparently none of you have been in similar situations?

Anyone can cut and paste and postulate the potential of anything, the HONEST REALITY is the whole friggin' tree coulda' peeled over with me tied into the first fork!

I have seen, heard and know of half trees snapping out and very big healthy trees falling over after climbers come out and had 5" dia' limbs I've redirected from snap out at the trunk and come crashing down on me...(Then again, repeatedly rappelled twin rope outa 300'+ regnans on 7mm rope around the "trunk" at 3" dia over a 1/2" twig never a worry in the world...)

Ekka (or more acurately the writer of the article) is right on it. It doesn't matter how big or small the branch or tree for that matter is (the 2 branches i climbed on could not be broken at their respective or combined unions by anything but explosive force or many, many tons of downward force), it's what we put in place to counter any POSSIBLE situations that might occur resulting from potential danger and in this industry you or I do not know the potential in any given tree UNLESS we have xray vision and science PHD's to then evaluate structural integrity...

It was more the realisation that I was climbing on something so small yet so strong that has made me comment and SHARE my experience in the now obviously vain hope of hearing others share their experiences...

Please, any tree let alone ANY branch can fall over/off at any given time, safety and risk assesment goes without saying...

Thank you to those whom have been honest enough to share their experiences and thank you to those who've stated the bleeding obvious over and over and over, without your testimonies it makes it hard to swallow your righteousness...

 

[beowulf343]

Anyone else got some stories similar, I have plenty more but this was definitely one of the better ones…

This is what worries me man. You have other stories of tying into tips that were unseen and having a close call-yet you do it again? Had a tip in a willow break on me once (granted, i was too high) and fell 15 feet breaking three other limbs before catching on one that held. Scared the ???? out of me. Been very careful of my tips since. So i don't have any other similar stories-i learned my lesson. Sorry if that seems like i'm too righteous for you.

 

[Blinky]

I'm surprised more people don't use binos, I think they're indispensable... a lot of customers love it when you hand them the glasses and point out structural problems or fungal growth or whatever.

Yesterday I was picking a crotch to put a line in and thought I had the perfect one until I glassed it and realized the fork wasn't the one I thought it was and one side was dead as h*ll.

I like my binoculars.

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Sometimes yes, but in this case it would probably have worked to have set a lower entry line that could be seen, then climb up to set the best TIP.

Yep!!!

 

[arboralliance]

No man, exactly what I was looking for...

This is what worries me man. You have other stories of tying into tips that were unseen and having a close call-yet you do it again? Had a tip in a willow break on me once (granted, i was too high) and fell 15 feet breaking three other limbs before catching on one that held. Scared the ???? out of me. Been very careful of my tips since. So i don't have any other similar stories-i learned my lesson. Sorry if that seems like i'm too righteous for you.

You're giving an example of your experience so no you don't come across as being righteous...

Can you expand on what happened?

When I mention I have had plenty of others it is where a small stub has been behind an attachment or the like, etc, etc, potentialy a 6" drop if it were to break, the usual stuff that all or most commercial/utility climbers would experience daily...

As i mentioned above anything can, does and has happened, freak stuff has happened to me where you could never have picked it, i guess that comes from the volume of climbing...

 

[Blinky]

[...]

As i mentioned above anything can, does and has happened, freak stuff has happened to me where you could never have picked it, i guess that comes from the volume of climbing...

That and the way trees seem to all have their little surprises. I'm amazed at how often a tree will do something just the opposite of what generally accepted practices would predict.

 

[moray]

I'm surprised more people don't use binos, I think they're indispensable... I like my binoculars.

Totally agree with this. Also very good for discerning which is the big ring in a false crotch...

 

[Blinky]

If I get a high tie in point that I think might be questionable and not easily visible from the ground sometimes I will set a rope in it anyway. I then set a second climbing rope in a lower bomb proof crotch and ascend srt. When I get to my bomb proof tip I inspect the higher crotch and if it looks good I then switch over to doubled rope technique and ascend into the crown. Of course if my higher tip is questionable I pull it out and use that rope to ascend into the crown. It's not unusual for me to set two climbing ropes from the ground to ease crown movement once aloft.

I've never had a main tip break out and don't envy those that have.

That's an excellent solution... wish I'd read that yesterday AM. I nailed, or rather, thought I nailed the crotch I wanted first try, it was nearly a 90' shot. Pulled the rope up and the ends were gonna be way off the ground so I set a ladder and attached my ascenders. As I swung away from the ladder it occurred to me I hadn't bounced tested the rope so I came down and pulled out the glasses to be absolutely sure. Well, it looked OK but there was some sucker growth around the crotch and even with the binos I couldn't be sure the rope wasn't just around a 1" or 2" sucker... no way I was gonna ascend that far in mid air without being sure. So...

...it took me 45 minutes to hit a slightly lower crotch and get both ends of the rope down... 45 MINUTES! The bag kept pinging into the tree and bouncing off, then the rubber on my bigshot got twisted a bit and it stopped lofting the bag high enough. OY! It took less time to knock out the deadwood than it did to set the rope. :bang:

Going lower might not have worked very well in this case because it was a tall, slim white oak with long stretches between crotches, but still, it woulda beat the frustration of spending that long getting my rope in.

 

[treesquirrel]

Just did a red oak last week where my initial tip was over a weak limb. Very dense crown therefore I chose to just fire up another line into a low crotch then trunk walk up into the canopy. The limbs were so abundant I just climbed with lanyards to reset the main tip.

Once I got up there I found it to not only be too small for adequate support but it was half rotten.

This same tree had an infestation of black ants which had eaten away almost 1/2 of a major limb over 12 inches in diameter. The damn thing split on me while cutting and almost sent me for a ride had I not had a second lanyard around an overhead branch. I am a firm beleiver in multiple tips while runnin my saw. I sometimes rent my chipper to another tree service a friend owns and his climber regularly runs a saw with a single tip. Crazy stuff.

 

[arboralliance]

Unemployable...

That's an excellent solution... wish I'd read that yesterday AM. I nailed, or rather, thought I nailed the crotch I wanted first try, it was nearly a 90' shot. Pulled the rope up and the ends were gonna be way off the ground so I set a ladder and attached my ascenders. As I swung away from the ladder it occurred to me I hadn't bounced tested the rope so I came down and pulled out the glasses to be absolutely sure. Well, it looked OK but there was some sucker growth around the crotch and even with the binos I couldn't be sure the rope wasn't just around a 1" or 2" sucker... no way I was gonna ascend that far in mid air without being sure. So...

...it took me 45 minutes to hit a slightly lower crotch and get both ends of the rope down... 45 MINUTES! The bag kept pinging into the tree and bouncing off, then the rubber on my bigshot got twisted a bit and it stopped lofting the bag high enough. OY! It took less time to knock out the deadwood than it did to set the rope. :bang:

Going lower might not have worked very well in this case because it was a tall, slim white oak with long stretches between crotches, but still, it woulda beat the frustration of spending that long getting my rope in.

Blinky, is this commercial climbing?

If I dont get each 100' "trunk" done from go to woh in an hour i am pretty much unemployable, let alone take 45 mins to set a line! This is the point I am making and greatly appreciate this fact; if your line isn't right all the theory in the world on setting lower and throw line within the tree etc, etc is defunct based on commercial viability of technique/time scales...

This is not to say i compromise safety over commercial viability, everyone I work with claim I am the safest climber they have climbed with/for/under, and yes many times I use my 35m "pole straps" as a second life line in this type of situation...:bang:

Do people set up around small "limbs" with fail safes in place, are there trees they trust more than others, have they found themselves amazed a TIP didnt fail when finally coming close to and realising its dia?

Enjoying the frank and somewhat open discussions, be good to hear of others situations, experiences...

 

[arboralliance]

Spot on!

Just did a red oak last week where my initial tip was over a weak limb. Very dense crown therefore I chose to just fire up another line into a low crotch then trunk walk up into the canopy. The limbs were so abundant I just climbed with lanyards to reset the main tip.

Once I got up there I found it to not only be too small for adequate support but it was half rotten.

This same tree had an infestation of black ants which had eaten away almost 1/2 of a major limb over 12 inches in diameter. The damn thing split on me while cutting and almost sent me for a ride had I not had a second lanyard around an overhead branch. I am a firm beleiver in multiple tips while runnin my saw. I sometimes rent my chipper to another tree service a friend owns and his climber regularly runs a saw with a single tip. Crazy stuff.

I always run 2 pole 10' straps and regularly have them both in place when cutting along with my TIP/High point, for a whole lotta reasons it makes the job so much easier, I use rope pole straps with pulley backed prusick advance system so they are super light and all parts replaceable and easily checked, I am constantly switching from using one as a flip line to a secondary safety line/high point whether its 10' or 35m long AND at times I will also carry a 35m or more line around in a big tree for the same purpose, anyone else always have 2 pole straps?

 

[treesquirrel]

I always run 2 pole 10' straps and regularly have them both in place when cutting along with my TIP/High point, for a whole lotta reasons it makes the job so much easier, I use rope pole straps with pulley backed prusick advance system so they are super light and all parts replaceable and easily checked, I am constantly switching from using one as a flip line to a secondary safety line/high point whether its 10' or 35m long AND at times I will also carry a 35m or more line around in a big tree for the same purpose, anyone else always have 2 pole straps?

I always take up a buckstrap and a 30 foot line to use for additional security. I'll drag up a goody bag full o toys and hang it in the tree so i can go get anything I may need.

Interesting note you made above about the time to get one on the ground. I work for myself so my only push is to get myself up and out in a reasonable time but I never rush while aloft. I'd rather take a little longer than compromise my safety. But you are spot on. I can hook up and knock the limbs off then top a typical pine of 70-100 feet in about 40-60 minutes. Then slide down and drop the stub. If I have to peice it down with lines this can triple. If I have to chunk it down but can bomb everything it adds about 15-20 minutes typically. But I do not rush myself to make any kind of quota.

 

[arboralliance]

Actually...

I always take up a buckstrap and a 30 foot line to use for additional security. I'll drag up a goody bag full o toys and hang it in the tree so i can go get anything I may need.

Interesting note you made above about the time to get one on the ground. I work for myself so my only push is to get myself up and out in a reasonable time but I never rush while aloft. I'd rather take a little longer than compromise my safety. But you are spot on. I can hook up and knock the limbs off then top a typical pine of 70-100 feet in about 40-60 minutes. Then slide down and drop the stub. If I have to peice it down with lines this can triple. If I have to chunk it down but can bomb everything it adds about 15-20 minutes typically. But I do not rush myself to make any kind of quota.

Originally posted this as a D+D/WR thread not removal, so I am talking utility/line clearing, dead wood + detail and weight reduction style "spurless" climbing... The longest I have spent in a tree was 8.5 hours without coming down, a very big take down of Pinus radiata in tight steep spot and populated Bed and Breakfast heratige listed buildings etc, etc so used, yes, seriously, electric chainsaw on all the limbs in the morning as this place is booked out 24/7/365 then blocked down the 150' barrel in the afternoon great story there when blocking down the 3-4' x 20'+ log sections!!

The longest dead wood + detail was an 80+ foot Pinus canariensis growing up through a designer house in Melbourne client ended up spending $3500 in total with me in remediation and re-lanscaping etc, etc, for this tree gettin it up to top shape over several years, spent 5.5 hours one day dead wooding with secatuers and my thumb, lotsa sling standing, ridiculous limb walks on that baby! (Clients 21 yr old daughter felt safe enuf to sunbake under me that day out on the decking two stories up!)opcorn:

 

[treesquirrel]

(Clients 21 yr old daughter felt safe enuf to sunbake under me that day out on the decking two stories up!)opcorn:

Plenty of wood that day I am guessing. What a nice treat. Or was she a bloated warthog?

 

[Canyonbc]

How bad can it really hurt it

I am not a arborist to any extent...i am a college student who does brush clearing

but still in any business i think most woul agree safety 1st

my question to you with experince in the field..

Ex. you are trimming up a 125 ft euc. and you spike it because there is no where to tie in....please use your imagination...how "bad" or what permanent damage can come from spiking a tree on a trim like this??

thanks
canyon

 

[clearance]

I am not a arborist to any extent...i am a college student who does brush clearing

but still in any business i think most woul agree safety 1st

my question to you with experince in the field..

Ex. you are trimming up a 125 ft euc. and you spike it because there is no where to tie in....please use your imagination...how "bad" or what permanent damage can come from spiking a tree on a trim like this??

thanks
canyon

Who cares? I have climbed trees beside powerlines that have been climbed before, and will be climbed again, with spurs. Its pretty much BS, a myth for the most part, maybe a few trees have died, probably 1 in 100 000.

 

[arboralliance]

Well...

Plenty of wood that day I am guessing. What a nice treat. Or was she a bloated warthog?

Very loverly girl...

Super model material just nice n short s'all...

 

[Blinky]

Blinky, is this commercial climbing?

If I dont get each 100' "trunk" done from go to woh in an hour i am pretty much unemployable, let alone take 45 mins to set a line! This is the point I am making and greatly appreciate this fact; if your line isn't right all the theory in the world on setting lower and throw line within the tree etc, etc is defunct based on commercial viability of technique/time scales... [...]

Well, that's the point I was making. 45 minutes killed me that day and I was really pissed. I generally have my line ready to go in 10 minutes or less, but some days... :bang:
I don't often clean a crown in under an hour, sometimes much longer. I've got you on continuous time in a tree... 9-1/2 hours on fine pruning a big water oak... it was definitely over the top but lowering big pieces without a groundie slows me waaay down. I hear complaints about my speed fairly often... and really couldn't care less. I'll build my speed over time but never will it be my first priority. I've been climbing trees for 10 months now so expectations for my speed are lower than a highly experienced climber. Frankly though, I'm sick of hauling ass all the time, that's why I'm in treework to begin with. I ran my own businesses for 11 years and 5 years and did lots of production work... I hated it. Quit my last real job because my blood pressure was hanging around 180/140... not an exaggeration, I was ready to stroke out. At 47 I'm ready to keep a more peaceful pace. Today it was three 100' plus white oaks averaging 70' spreads that had never been cleaned before (lots of old storm damage), some of it had to be roped (without a groundsman); that took 7 hours including cleanup. So wail away on that if you want but I made $450 working alone... that's acceptable to me.

Some days I'm faster than others but I'm always a perfectionist, blame my parents, I've tried to change and I can't. Production and precision are inversely related and I lean hard to precision, not just in climbing but in practically everything. I'm trying to ease up on the perfectionist thing and I think that will ultimately be the big difference, I can move around most trees pretty well at this point. I prefer to work by the job, not by the hour, specifically so I can take my time. I'm about craft, not production so I seek customers who are like minded. I don't want or expect to work for a big production outfit.

The main guy I contract climb for is pretty patient, he rags on me but it's mostly good natured... and he knows I always give my best effort regardless. I think he wants to see me get faster but not at the expense of safety or mental health.