Dangers of Chainsaw's Chain Creeping, Spinning or Rotation at Idle

[matty f]

The danger's of the spinning chain after a cut are kickback,if your body parts are in the way the out come is pretty obvious,so positioning again essential .....as to chain creep bermies post sums it up! If i really have too though I would rather have a tuning screw driver sent up the tree as i can adjust it spot on and i see no danger in doing it in the tree...and my groundy cant tune a saw!

 

[SafetyNewbie]

Bermie,

Thanks for your feedback and guidance - a wack upside the head is well taken; many knowledgeable people in this forum willing to share experience with the masses.

A small word of advice .... Sorry if this last bit hits you sideways, it is a bit of a pet peeve of mine....

Do you think this board would have interest to discuss insurance premiums and workman's comp. insurance premiums issues in a separate thread? On a quick glance it appears that insurance dollars spent per operator, per year, exceeds the amount spent on new tools and training per operator, per year - this doesn't seem right as it would be great if some of those ever increasing insurance premium dollars are shifted over to buy new tools, training, hire more workers .... to help the business. I wonder what it would take to control and\or decrease skyrocketing insurance premiums.

A friend of mine's son owns a business and had one minor safety issue which caused his workman's comp. insurance premiums to skyrocket by tens of thousands of dollars - seems like insurance company's are gouging businesses left and right - maybe this is just an isolated problem here in US. Canada seems to have high insurance premium too from what I have read. I am not sure if Europe or other parts of the world have high insurance (or workman comp) premiums.

 

[SafetyNewbie]

Bermie,

Thanks for your feedback and guidance - a wack upside the head is well taken; many knowledgeable people in this forum willing to share experience with the masses.

A small word of advice .... Sorry if this last bit hits you sideways, it is a bit of a pet peeve of mine....

Do you think this board would have interest to discuss insurance premiums and workman's comp. insurance premiums issues in a separate thread? On a quick glance it appears that insurance dollars spent per operator, per year, exceeds the amount spent on new tools and training per operator, per year - this doesn't seem right as it would be great if some of those ever increasing insurance premium dollars are shifted over to buy new tools, training, hire more workers .... to help the business. I wonder what it would take to control and\or decrease skyrocketing insurance premiums.

A friend of mine's son owns a business and had one minor safety issue which caused his workman's comp. insurance premiums to skyrocket by tens of thousands of dollars - seems like insurance company's are gouging businesses left and right - maybe this is just an isolated problem here in US. Canada seems to have high insurance premium too from what I have read. I am not sure if Europe or other parts of the world have high insurance (or workman comp) premiums.

 

[RedlineIt]

Excellent post Bermie!

When I started reading this thread, I intended to reply with pretty much what you covered only in my less eloquent style, including a short brief to the safetynoob on not coming across as snide and condescending when asking for advice. Well done.

You are bang on with the advice to check out the operation of the chainsaw prior to cutting or taking it up the tree, I would only add to check the function of the "operator presence throttle lockout" feature, ie: the "Dead-man switch" on the back of the control handle that has to be depressed before the throttle trigger can be squeezed.

To the safetynewbie,

I will accept that you are as you state, a competant manager tasked with the development of safety protocols in an area that lies beyond your sphere of experience. Fair enough.

Don't reinvent the wheel. You imply you're working with staff who routinely use chainsaws, somewhere they are certain to have a current manufacturer's chainsaw operator's manual filed away. Get it and read it.

You also infer you are working with tree climbers. I would hope that as a competant manger, you are well aware that ANSI 133 covers these protocols. If not, by all means get it and read it. If you have to Google on ANSI to find out what it is, you have not even begun your homework and I would suggest that your upper management have tasked the wrong employee.

Finally, what I think is turning off several respondants to this thread is your "laser beamed focus" (Thanks, Timber jack 7) on the chain rotation risk at the finish of a cut. Your repetetive insistance on a response to this question does indeed carry a twinge of the odor of lawyerly stink.

I'll not be so harsh. I'll just say that your questioning seems to be an inexperienced desk jockey's consistant maneuvering to elicit this statement:

"THE CHAIN BRAKE MUST BE APPLIED IMMEDIATELY TO HALT CHAIN ROTATION UPON COMPLETION OF EVERY CUT."

This would be poor advice. You won't find it in the operator's manual and you won't find it here either.

The inertial chain brake is an emergency safety device. It is there to limit personal injury in specific situations. Testing it on start up as Bermie suggested is definitely valid, but to use it to routinely halt chain rotation at the completion of every cut is not advised.

Such use would subject the chain brake to repeated forces that it was designed to only endure in emergency situations. The manufacturers do of course build life and durability into the inertial chain brake, but to use it to halt the chain on every cut will quickly exceed its life expectancy and result in premature failure of this key safety device. There is no provision for it to "fail-safe". Then where are you?

And, safetynewbie, if you want personal injury experiences, here's one:

I worked with a climber who WOULD throw his chain brake to stop the chain every time. It grated on my sense of safety to hear him slam the chain brake on all that inertia every single time, and I counseled him to let the chain speed decrease safely on it's own before engaging the brake, telling him much as I'm telling you, you'll break the brake.

He preferred his method, and so (predictably) the chain brake broke. It failed so that it spun the chain off the sprocket, off the bar, and the chain came around to slap his right forearm, the cutters digging in at a couple of spots but nothing that a bit of onsite first aid couldn't handle.

But it need not have happenned at all.


RedlineIt

 

[SafetyNewbie]

TimberJack

... why are you so focused only on the spinning chain on a chainsaw after cuts, or at various points in the idle cycle? ... Safety should be common sense. If I have a chain that is still spinning, I use this thing on my chainsaw called a chainbrake...

I am focusing in on areas where injuries can and do happen (as an industry we cannot put our heads in the sand and ignore reality - we have to talk openly about reality and learn from the past, this is how one makes improvements) and focusing energies at this time on tool maintenance and tool acquisition is not highest priority - insurance costs are rising and gotta get arms around this item even though safety benchmarks are stable. I agree and I think that members of this board all agree that "safety should be common sense" but just roam around this board and you can read about users' preferences and rational for drop starting chainsaws, letting saws hang from lanyard while in tree canopy while engine running (hopefully with front hand brake engaged, and throttle interlock [secondary brake] engaged - hopefully both of which do not get tripped while maneuvering, freak accidents do happen). Are these just shortcuts to save time and energy or are these symptoms or signals that the power tools need to be improved above and beyond the industry required throttle interlock, Stihl's rear handle palm brake (I see that Husky, Dolmar, and other name brands do NOT have this safety feature), ...? By the way, its hard to see the true value to the Stihl palm brake - it works, but seems awkward (maybe a band aid to a problem) that brake is controlled by the palm - anyone else have comments here?

Maybe the chainsaw manufactures need to look at new technology, new designs to address this problem ... look at what the addition of the deadman brake has done to increase safety on push lawnmowers (at first I did not like this change, as its normal to resist change, but I now appreciate the design change). We all have to welcome and embrace change if that means increasing safety, but recognize that accident do and will happen as nothing is 100% safe.

Following safety rules, staying focused on the job, if you are having a bad day (not feeling well, tired, ...... - we all get this every once in a while, its human nature) you should not be operating a power tool that day period - each employee has a responsibility to themselves and each and every other team member to know when to say when (stealing slogan from beer commercials), but employers cannot nor should not punish employees for making safety #1. We are all in the same industry, lets help make it a safer one. :rockn:

 

[DonnyO]

I reserverd judgement at first

TimberJack




I am focusing in on areas where injuries can and do happen (as an industry we cannot put our heads in the sand and ignore reality - we have to talk openly about reality and learn from the past, this is how one makes improvements) and focusing energies at this time on tool maintenance and tool acquisition is not highest priority - insurance costs are rising and gotta get arms around this item even though safety benchmarks are stable. I agree and I think that members of this board all agree that "safety should be common sense" but just roam around this board and you can read about users' preferences and rational for drop starting chainsaws, letting saws hang from lanyard while in tree canopy while engine running (hopefully with front hand brake engaged, and throttle interlock [secondary brake] engaged - hopefully both of which do not get tripped while maneuvering, freak accidents do happen). Are these just shortcuts to save time and energy or are these symptoms or signals that the power tools need to be improved above and beyond the industry required throttle interlock, Stihl's rear handle palm brake (I see that Husky, Dolmar, and other name brands do NOT have this safety feature), ...? By the way, its hard to see the true value to the Stihl palm brake - it works, but seems awkward (maybe a band aid to a problem) that brake is controlled by the palm - anyone else have comments here?

Maybe the chainsaw manufactures need to look at new technology, new designs to address this problem ... look at what the addition of the deadman brake has done to increase safety on push lawnmowers (at first I did not like this change, as its normal to resist change, but I now appreciate the design change). We all have to welcome and embrace change if that means increasing safety, but recognize that accident do and will happen as nothing is 100% safe.

Following safety rules, staying focused on the job, if you are having a bad day (not feeling well, tired, ...... - we all get this every once in a while, its human nature) you should not be operating a power tool that day period - each employee has a responsibility to themselves and each and every other team member to know when to say when (stealing slogan from beer commercials), but employers cannot nor should not punish employees for making safety #1. We are all in the same industry, lets help make it a safer one. :rockn:

:spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: LAWYER!!!!

 

[Bermie]

SafetyNoob,

Again, it appears you are focussing to tightly on one aspect of the job and trying to tie it too tightly to safety protocols, real or desired and insurance issues. You need to get out and spend some time with real, trained competent operators. This is NOT something that can be directed or imposed from an office without real world understanding there are too many variables.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with letting a chainsaw hang from your lanyard, running with the chainbrake on, that's what it is designed to do. When you decide to do that, for how long, under what conditions, these are the variables.

The manufacture of chainsaws and their inherent safety features have developed just fine over the years both in response to incidents and accidents, government regulated standards (emmisions and vibration are two) and to normal forward thinking by research and development departments of the manufacturers.

A modern chainsaw now has AT LEAST eight separate safety features, I honestly do not think that anyone other than the major manufacturers and designers are going to think up any more features and any more in my opinion would render the saw unworkable. Let me list the main ones:

-Right hand guard
-Safety/warning decals
-Positive on/off switch
-Throttle interlock (it is NOT a chain brake, just a device that ensures proper hand position to operate the throttle and to prevent throttle engaging if a stick or something got in under the handle)
-Left hand guard/manual chain brake
-Inertial chain brake
-Anti vibration mountings
-Chain catcher pin
-Exhaust discharge angled away from the operator
-Low kickback bar and chain combinations

Let's face it a chainsaw is a DANGEROUS tool. It is YOUR inherent responsibility to be trained in its proper use AND maintenance, to get training in proper work techniques.
A badly maintained saw is dangerous, an untrained operator is dangerous.
Accidents happen, training and situational awareness help ensure that when they happen nobody gets hurt.

For your further reading may I suggest the UK national standard, you can find ALL the relevant standards at www.nptc.org.uk Look under the assessment schedules for chainsaw. This is the standard I teach to. In the UK you cannot get liability insurance unless you possess these qualifications. I cannot speak for the US.

A note, I trained in the UK but I am from, live and work in Bermuda where anything goes, I can get $1 million of liability insurance for tree work just on my own say so, I didn't have to show any of my certificates. I will stay out of the insurance debate as I live in a jurisdiction where it is very lax, and quite frankly we don't want to have the overburdening issues that the UK has. Suffice to say those who know and care, make sure they are properly trained and certified.

Someone else suggested it: enroll yourself on a chainsaw safety and operation course, then come back and talk some more.opcorn:

 

[Gologit]

SafetyNewbie....Just what kind of business are you in? If we knew a little more about what you want we might be able to be of more help. Advice can be tailored to the situation but we have to know what the situation is.

 

[SRT-Tech]

Safety:newbie: , there is NOTHING wrong with the current chain brake on chainsaws. Nothing nada nilch. There is no need to start "tailwagging the dog" so to speak, by trying to improve something that works just fine. All too often, some desk jockey takes a perfectly functioning piece of equipment and tries to "dumb it down" in an effort to "improve" safety. what happens is the dumbed down piece of equipment turns out to be a piece of crap, and leads to operator frustration and anger, which leads to forcing a tool to do something it was'nt designed to do, leading to injury. So dont try to "dumb down" a piece of equipment that already works JUST FINE. Focus on your employees not being rushed, not being overworked and THAT will reduce injuries. Oh and get out from behind the desk, don some chainsaw safety gear, and take a chainsaw course, or get the people that your concerned about to show you the ropes.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

A properly maintianed saw will not have a chain that moves in idle. It is the companies responsibility to have properly mainained equipment for the employees. This is the basis on whish OSHA works.

There is a resonableness "clause" though where it follows that a resonable person should know that he take immidiate action to remedy an unsafe situation.

TCIA has a boilerplate safety plan that you can buy, and they will work with memeber companies to help customize them.

Safety needs to be a part of the culture of the workplace though, not just a booklet you hand out when someone joins the team.

Regular, and documented meetings and training sessions.

As for the chainsaw, they should be inspected on a daily basis by a responsible person. Be that the foreman or a trusted designee who is compensated for the responsibility.

 

[Gologit]

Safety:newbie: , there is NOTHING wrong with the current chain brake on chainsaws. Nothing nada nilch. There is no need to start "tailwagging the dog" so to speak, by trying to improve something that works just fine. All too often, some desk jockey takes a perfectly functioning piece of equipment and tries to "dumb it down" in an effort to "improve" safety. what happens is the dumbed down piece of equipment turns out to be a piece of crap, and leads to operator frustration and anger, which leads to forcing a tool to do something it was'nt designed to do, leading to injury. So dont try to "dumb down" a piece of equipment that already works JUST FINE. Focus on your employees not being rushed, not being overworked and THAT will reduce injuries. Oh and get out from behind the desk, don some chainsaw safety gear, and take a chainsaw course, or get the people that your concerned about to show you the ropes.

Well said...this guy needs some serious education and he doesn't seem to be picking up on the good advice given him so far. I'm glad he's not the saftey manager where I work. Every time I go back and read this thread I'm reminded of the "Dilbert" comic strip. Maybe this guy is the Pointy Haired Boss?

 

[TimberMcPherson]

I had a 44 with an air leak, ever so often it would pick up revs and spin at about 4k. Not good when on the lanyard. Took it into the repair shop. Told the repair guy what it was doing, he said it was just a tuning thing and that I was a wuss and needed to harden up as it wasnt really a big problem.

So he starts the saw infront of me in the shop, it picks up a few thousand RPM and is spinning like mad. He reaches for a tuning screwdriver and the saw tip hit a shelf behind him, jumps up and cuts open a gallon of saw lube which goes everywhere. Luckily it didnt get him or me. He was pretty shaken and didnt call me a wuss anymore, and he had a big mess to clean up

 

[TimberJack_7]

TimberJack




I am focusing in on areas where injuries can and do happen (as an industry we cannot put our heads in the sand and ignore reality - we have to talk openly about reality and learn from the past, this is how one makes improvements) and focusing energies at this time on tool maintenance and tool acquisition is not highest priority - insurance costs are rising and gotta get arms around this item even though safety benchmarks are stable. I agree and I think that members of this board all agree that "safety should be common sense" but just roam around this board and you can read about users' preferences and rational for drop starting chainsaws, letting saws hang from lanyard while in tree canopy while engine running (hopefully with front hand brake engaged, and throttle interlock [secondary brake] engaged - hopefully both of which do not get tripped while maneuvering, freak accidents do happen). Are these just shortcuts to save time and energy or are these symptoms or signals that the power tools need to be improved above and beyond the industry required throttle interlock, Stihl's rear handle palm brake (I see that Husky, Dolmar, and other name brands do NOT have this safety feature), ...? By the way, its hard to see the true value to the Stihl palm brake - it works, but seems awkward (maybe a band aid to a problem) that brake is controlled by the palm - anyone else have comments here?

Maybe the chainsaw manufactures need to look at new technology, new designs to address this problem ... look at what the addition of the deadman brake has done to increase safety on push lawnmowers (at first I did not like this change, as its normal to resist change, but I now appreciate the design change). We all have to welcome and embrace change if that means increasing safety, but recognize that accident do and will happen as nothing is 100% safe.

Following safety rules, staying focused on the job, if you are having a bad day (not feeling well, tired, ...... - we all get this every once in a while, its human nature) you should not be operating a power tool that day period - each employee has a responsibility to themselves and each and every other team member to know when to say when (stealing slogan from beer commercials), but employers cannot nor should not punish employees for making safety #1. We are all in the same industry, lets help make it a safer one. :rockn:

SafetyNoob,

If you are focusing in on areas where injuries can and do happen, you need to focus on the entire tree care industry. Perhaps you could litigate tree care out of existence all together and let the trees take care of themselves. After that you could go after firefighters because that is also a dangerous line of work and a lot of firefighters get injured or killed ever year. After all, every person should have a fire extinguisher in their house, as well as a pistol since next on the list will be to get rid of policemen since that is also a dangerous line of work where folks get injured and killed every year. Am I sarcastic? Yes. What is my point here? My point here counselor is that we are professionals. As a professional we are forced to accept a certain amount of risk simply because it is the nature of the business. Spinning chains on chainsaws fall well within my extremely broad generalization of tree care. As professionals, we know what to do when a situation rears its head. I do not speak for the hacks that pick up a Poulan "wild thing" at Wal-mart and borrow granddads pick up truck and crooked wooden ladder to do a tree removal for their buddy at the local trailer park for a 12 pack of Milwaukees Best.

I am well aware that I come across as very direct, but I really don't care. I carefully read some of your answers here and noted that at first you claimed to have no knowledge of power tools, all of a sudden though, you are first to throw out terms such as "throttle interlock". You are also aware that this is a secondary brake and not the primary brake. Wow! You also suddenly know what brands of chainsaw have a palm brake and those that do not. Hmmmmmmm. I like your reference to how the "deadman's brake" was introduced to lawnmowers to make them "safer". Surely you picked that up in a case reference book (case no.1234 Bob Smith vs. Toro Mfg., Inc. San Andreas, CA 1983).

If people that operate chainsaws should stop operating them when they feel tired, I think a lot of companies would be "rested" right out of business due to lack of efficiency. Professionals know how to handle their equipment even when fatigued. That is the difference. Once again your knowledge of how things work out in the field is woefully and bottomlessly inept.

SafetyNoob, you still have yet to answer who you work for. I am curious what company and what state you are in. This is the second time I have asked, but like a lawyer or perhaps a politician, you have dodged this question. Allow me and others to Google the company you work for. Then perhaps some of us would be willing to relax our cautious stance.

SRT-Tech, RedlineIt - Thanks for the kudos. You know how the old saying goes - Either we all stick together or we shall all surely be forced to use dumbed-down power equipment separately.........

Bermie - I don't know how much more clearly you can explain proper chainsaw usage. Great post, unfortunately there will always be someone out there that just doesn't get it. Those are the ones that need to stay out of tree work and away from power tools in general.

Sorry if I have rambled guys.

 

[SRT-Tech]

TimberJack, if your ever in the Vancouver area, you come see me for a couple Single malts and some BBQ. That was without a doubt the finest piece of writing on this post yet.

 

[beowulf343]

Please share with the forum your experiences regarding the safety isues, dangers, etc. associated with the continuous spinning, creeping and\or rotation of the saw chain around the bar when the chainsaw engine is at idle (i.e. throttle trigger released). Also, please identify situations when the chainsaw operator is exposed to potential injuries\fatality from the continuous saw chain rotation such as after cut through from limbing, climbing through tree canopy, ....?

See the problem+fix the problem=no injury=no lawyers.

 

[TimberJack_7]

TimberJack, if your ever in the Vancouver area, you come see me for a couple Single malts and some BBQ. That was without a doubt the finest piece of writing on this post yet.

SRT - I'll definately take you up on that offer! I extend the same offer to you if you are ever here in NE Ohio! Thanks for the compliment. We as professionals have to stick together!

 

[Gologit]

I agree with SRT tech...best post yet. Also the brew and Q offer holds if you make it to Live Oak. The guy is obviously a fraud. In some posts his grammar and sentence structure is almost too poor to be real...in others it's perfect. I flat out asked him what kind of work he does and so far there's no answer. So..he's either a lawyer, a gofer for a lawyer, or an idiot...they're not mutually exclusive. Either way I don't think he brings anything to the forum and I have the idea he could harm us eventually.
By the way, I had a couple of bullets left so I pos-repped you for your post...maybe we can make that red dot go away.

 

[SRT-Tech]

SRT - I'll definately take you up on that offer! I extend the same offer to you if you are ever here in NE Ohio! Thanks for the compliment. We as professionals have to stick together!

haha, Timberjack, i'm hardly a pro, yet. Still fairly new to treework but fully immersing myself in the job, training up the yingyang, and treeclimbing every day after work and on the weekends. I just appreciate people with common sense.

Saaaay Safety:newbie: , i got a work related problem, meybe you can rectify it..,,,see when us treeworkers are up in the tree , its real hard for us to go to the bathroom see, i mean we're wearing the safety harnees, the hard hat, tied into the tree twice with our safety lanyard and climbing rope...well, damn...no washroom around for us to use see and sometimes you just gotta let go of that load of chalupas from the night before....i think it poses a real safety risk , you know, it distracts us from the tree work, we ignore that DANGEROUS LIFE THREATENING CHAINSAW (even though the chain brake is engaged).........meybe you can figure out somesort of safety protocol for all us treeworkers eh?? why i bet with your edumaction and all you might be able to solve the problem once and for all for the treeworkers? hows about it eh? :greenchainsaw:

 

[TimberJack_7]

I agree with SRT tech...best post yet. Also the brew and Q offer holds if you make it to Live Oak. The guy is obviously a fraud. In some posts his grammar and sentence structure is almost too poor to be real...in others it's perfect. I flat out asked him what kind of work he does and so far there's no answer. So..he's either a lawyer, a gofer for a lawyer, or an idiot...they're not mutually exclusive. Either way I don't think he brings anything to the forum and I have the idea he could harm us eventually.
By the way, I had a couple of bullets left so I pos-repped you for your post...maybe we can make that red dot go away.

Bob,

Yeah this guy is phoney baloney. He plays dumb, but he knows what he is trolling for. The offer is also extended for brew and Q to you too Bob! If ever in NE Ohio, let me know! Oh yeah, one more thing.......I'm green again! Thank you!

Mike

 

[TimberJack_7]

haha, Timberjack, i'm hardly a pro, yet. Still fairly new to treework but fully immersing myself in the job, training up the yingyang, and treeclimbing every day after work and on the weekends. I just appreciate people with common sense.

Hey SRT - Stay with it brother. Tree work is work, but it is still more fun than sitting in an office somewhere. I tried that already and it sucked! I am sure you probably look, act, and think like a pro, the experience comes with time. We all have to start somewhere. Remember, a good chunk of your professionalism comes from your attitude. Sounds to me like you are on the right path, keep up the good work. It sounds like you must love tree work if you are climbing after work and on the weekends. I still do that myself and it helps me relax.