Decided to test chain types and angles today

[Engineeringnerd]

B_Turner,

Sorry to make you squirm so much! I know 32" is overkill, but I was very pleased that it kept the cutters turning. You would have to see this wood to understand; it was very tough stuff. I wish I had access to a more appropriate saw on this same wood so I could gauge how much difference in cut speed to expect.


For those wondering about the grinding:

The two skip chisel chains had been used once and were carefully ground using a MAXX grinder. The "Hooked" chain was ground to 60 x 25 x 10, the "Unhooked" was ground to 60 x 30 x 0). The semi-chisel was brand new WoodsmanPro SCS (skip) and was untouched.

I believe I put a significantly better edge on a chain with my grinder than the factory does, so I really see the semi-chisel as having the disadvantage. It still was the fastest, however.

 

[Timberhauler]

I believe I put a significantly better edge on a chain with my grinder than the factory does, so I really see the semi-chisel as having the disadvantage. It still was the fastest, however.

What kind of grinder do you have?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The full-chisle/ semi-chisle tests have been done to death, out of the box, full chisle is always faster. Now you need to go back and figure out what you're doing wrong.

 

[Engineeringnerd]

Mike,

I don't think I've made any blatant mistakes, but certainly the test was intended for conversation and isn't thorough in any way. What you see on this video is what I experienced with carefully ground chains. Semi-chisel with that saw/bar combination yielded the best results for the day. Multiple runs with multiple chains on multiple logs would be much more scientific and easier to defend.

Thinking about the outcome for a second, the results may be perfectly logical for this setup. The semi-chisel probably drags the motor down a little less on this long bar, keeping the rpms higher, resulting in a slightly faster cut (or equal cut). I think it's obvious I'm on the upper edge of this saw's capabilities in this application! If I had a shorter bar or another horse or two, the outcome might be different. Kind of in the same vein as running a smaller sprocket for some applications can speed the cut up, even though with unlimited power a larger, faster sprocket should always win. I wouldn't be surprised if a Stihl 66, 88, or a Husky 395 would pull the more aggressive chisel faster than the semi-chisel.

My thoughts for what they're worth.

 

[Engineeringnerd]

Timberhauler,

forgive the double post.

I use a MAXX grinder. I updated the video and have a shot of it to avoid confusion. I think a lot of folks assumed I was hand grinding.

 

[Cut4fun]

I forgot to ask earlier in my post. You were running a 7T pin with that 32" b+c?

 

[Cut4fun]

Thinking about the outcome for a second, the results may be perfectly logical for this setup. The semi-chisel probably drags the motor down a little less on this long bar, keeping the rpms higher, resulting in a slightly faster cut.

Thats what i thought too when i read it again. semi was pulling less on the saw and kept the r's up in the cut.
Had the same thing happen in 28 oak with a 22" full comp full chisel chain buried, the 60cc saw was struggling to pull 22" full comp full chisel through oak buried, but cut faster with the less aggressive semi-chisel chain not pulling the r's down on the saw, less drag faster the cut was on that saw too.

 

[cuttinscott]

Something weird is going on when semi chisel chain is faster than chisel.

DITTO Ben, If you ask my opinion I would have likes to see a stock untampered hook chain timed. No Possible was a Semi Chisel can outcut a properly sharpened Chisel

Scott

 

[Engineeringnerd]

Cut,

I'm running a 7t sprocket.

 

[bwalker]

Semi chisel chain is less efficient than full chisel and as such would load the motor more. Think of cutting two identical pieces of meat. One with a butter knife and the other with a steak knife. Which one takes more effort?
If I had to guess I would say the grinder has some setup issues.
It might be helpful if you take a few pics of your chain. I'm particularly interested in the "hooked" vs. unhooked.

 

[Cut4fun]

Guys pay attention to the saw revs in the cut. Every time that saw bogged in the cut that should be close to a couple seconds added on the cut time. That one long cut, the saw bogged 3 or 4 times. So that also could be the reason for the semi cutting faster, if the full chisel was bogging the saw down in that long cut video section and it still was almost even in cut times, even after all the bogging. Yes full chisel is faster and that is what i run, plus my square chisel is also faster then my round, but only if it isnt bogging the saw in the cut. I hope i got this across where one could understand what i was meaning to apply.

 

[Cut4fun]

Semi chisel chain is less efficient than full chisel and as such would load the motor more. Think of cutting two identical pieces of meat. One with a butter knife and the other with a steak knife.

:biggrinbounce2: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[B_Turner]

If a chain is really sharp, I think the only reason it would bog a saw down as compare to semi chisel is if the depth gauges are set too short. More hook doesn't automatically mean sharper. I wish I could see those cutters up close.

I run square chisel mostly, and it is so sharp that it actually bogs less and allows me to run longer bars more easily. The same bar and wood with semi-chisel take considerably longer to complete the cut for me. So I personally use square ground chisel for everything but dirty wood. (I am only cutting green wood, though.) Wicked sharp.

 

[Diesel JD]

I agree, I would like to see a loop of square chisel skip...Bet it would eat the other chains for lunch. I am running square chisel comp on a 24" on anMS390, also at the edge of that saws capability, even though it is less saw than the 372XP, it tears through the oak and pine around here real fast. That wood you wee cutting...I see what you mean that is some tough tough wood, kind of like our live oak around here. It would also be interesting to see the same test repeated in pine or fir, or even a softer hardwood, again the chisel would do better. The semi usually wins out in vgery hard or dirty wood. As it did. Thanks for posting...vids are awesome.

 

[Engineeringnerd]

Being a person of extremes, I'll give another example. On my illustrious Eager Beaver 3.7 (Mac 610 clone) I can't use a new loop of Oregon LG chisel on a 20" bar because the cutters constantly snag and stop the chain. It's not just slow, it won't cut tough wood at all. Cut time = infinity! O.K. I could hold the saw up and it would eventually get through.

When I put a new loop of Oregon DP semi-chisel, the saw will cut most any wood reasonably well. Slower than a pro saw, but it gets the job done. Same saw, same wood, and semi-chisel outperforms chisel by a huge margin.

I don't buy that chisel is more efficient than semi-chisel in every case. I think it's more productive if you have the power to carry it.

 

[PES+]

Just a question....are you calling the 10 degree angle from being at right angle to the bar "hook"?
I call it back angle and I know that is just my term for it but am trying to understand what you mean by hook.

 

[ericjeeper]

at the gathering Saturday.

I made a cookie in 19 something or other with a full comp full chisel on a 24 inch bar, put a Husky new out of the box square grind skip on a 20 inch bar. my time was 22 seconds. I felt that the chain was sharp out of the box. Then I changed to a full comp full chisel 20 inch and made another cut right at the 19 again.. That square grind is not a 30 degree round ground.. But my best cut of the day was 51 seconds. with my 3.7 craftsman roper. Hautions said he used a sundial to time the old relic with. LOL
I only run full chisel. I do not see any reason to own anything else.. If I get into a dirty area. I try to make sure I am pulling the dirt out of the log, not into the cut. and it helps a lot. Then if it does get dull just hit it a lick with the file, or change it out and grind it later at home.

 

[Engineeringnerd]

Thanks TreeCo. Couldn't agree more on your analysis of mis-matched components on the Eager Beaver! I was trying to address an earlier comment that chisel is always faster. I used that one saw for 15 years and had to find a system that worked. I tried LG chisel as my entry into pro chain and it was a disaster. DP semi did the trick and performed much better than the consumer chains I had been buying.

Given all the support for chisel chain, what do you you guys make of the .325 narrow kerf Oregon 95VP and WoodsmanPro NK20 being semi-chisel? Why would these two companies dedicate their premiere NK chains to semi-chisel?

 

[Canyon Angler]

Interesting video, engineeringnerd, thanks for taking the time to test and post.

Semi chisel chain is less efficient than full chisel and as such would load the motor more.

Hmmm...I would say just the opposite. Semi-chisel chain isn't necessarily less efficient -- it's less aggressive. Here's why:

If, as you claim, a chisel chain should cut through a given log faster than a semi-chisel chain, then it follows that a full-chisel chain will put more of a load on a motor because it's doing an equal amount of work in a smaller amount of time (power = work/time). In order to do an equal amount of work in a shorter amount of time, with all other things being equal, the load MUST increase. There ain't no two ways about it.

I would say that the only reason the full chisel was slower was because its higher load bogged the engine, which made the engine put out less horsepower (due to it running at lower rpms) which slowed down the cut. If the motor was strong enough to keep the RPMs equal running both types of chain, I bet the full chisel would cut faster.

 

[bwalker]

When your dragging a metal cutter through wood, the sharper it is the less load it places on the motor. Chisel is sharper than semi chisel....