Do we REALLY want regulatory control?

[outofmytree]

agree to a point.....but telling someone they need chainsaw classes is not gonna go over well, how about the repair side of the coin, I know a person who "dropstarts" every saw....never had an accident..YET! I always bust em for this! how are you gonna know if someone is appropriately trained on anything? really? I know guys who have passed these classes & I wouldnt let them operate a toilet!!

The point is where does it start & stop, chainsaw class, lawn mower class, hedge trimmer class, ladder classes, nail gun class, etc.... everyone must be responsible for their own safety!!!! respect for the tool you are using will go further than any safety class/video training!

Outofmytree....you are responsible to promote safety & make sure the rules are adhered to, you are not responsible for anyones safety but your own, sorry.....you might want to look at it that way, but the bottom line is; Everyone must be responsible for their own safety, you cant baby sit all day!

the fallacy of safety you speak of is kinda funny! I have worked for Utility/residential contractors: big orange, green & yellow, red white & blue, etc...they`ll follow the rules to a "T" untill production is down....then its out the window with certain safety rules.....minimum approach distances, setting out rescue gear, signs displayed, flag personnel, experienced operators, etc... are some of the common ones!!

Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient & this is the standard with many companies, How many of us have heard.... "If you dont want to do it thats fine, I`ll find someone else who will".....the underlying fact is that refusal to do something will put you in a less than favorable position!!!!

So having a company policy, rules, codes, etc.... is as good as the paper it is written on!!! whats even more funny...well not really, is when someone does get hurt... then its how did this happen? how could it been prevented? & so on! All the while the company doesnt want to take blame....why? cuz ultimately its your responsibility!!! IMHO companies need to stop Bid work practices & just have T&M....Bid work sites have the largest accident rates due to unrealistic production requirements!!!




LXT..................

Simply not true. As an employer you are responsible for your employees safety. Cut corners and say, do not provide ppe, and in the event of an accident your ass is grass.

The mindset that says, "you cannot be safe and productive" needs to be addressed. I am both. I am not Superman. I am not smarter or fitter or better than the average biz owner. So if I can be safe and productive so can anyone else. If you cannot see how this can be done then ask!!!!!

 

[lxt]

Simply not true. As an employer you are responsible for your employees safety. Cut corners and say, do not provide ppe, and in the event of an accident your ass is grass.

The mindset that says, "you cannot be safe and productive" needs to be addressed. I am both. I am not Superman. I am not smarter or fitter or better than the average biz owner. So if I can be safe and productive so can anyone else. If you cannot see how this can be done then ask!!!!!

Now thats a Fallacy, you can equip your crew with all the safety gear in the world....SAFETY is still their responsibility!!!....what you speak of is the problem with America!!!....someone always wants someone else to take responsibility, One needs to take responsibility for ones own actions!!!

No company can micro manage to a level where each employee is overseen by a safety consultant to make sure they are "properly" adhering to "EVERY" rule!! your guys are breaking the rules!!!!! you just dont know about it & you are a fool if you think otherwise, unless you are a one man operation!

Funny how you skipped the paragraph about the "big" employers & how they work it: again.... Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient!! If you are telling me you have NEVER...NEVER, EVER..bent or broke a safety rule then Id have to say you are a LIAR!!

Personally, my Team & I do our best to adhere to all safety rules, there are times when...even safety requires you to "take the shot", sometimes there is just no completely safe way to do something.....you can only do it the safest way possible...this is were the book smart non-working types are lost!! well what does the book say....

Someone mentioned in an earlier post about have endorsements or ranks put beside their ISA CA cert. #.....I think it should state "working" or "non-working"......let them explain that to the customer...yeah im a certified arborist....but I cant actually perform the work... I am all in favor of this!!! By the way getting back on track...ANSI is the standard to follow!!



LXT...............

 

[lxt]

The additional costs???? you think making a biz confirm to a new ordinance, law, code, etc.. wont cost something???? Dude, this is America, just the paperwork aspects alone would cost "Millions" the entity regulating the field would cost "Millions"...yes jobs might be created but at whos cost.....the taxpayers thats who!! not to mention all the corrupt BS that goes along with it! We have the ANSI standard...just no enforcement!

how much do you think it would cost to "effectively enforce" the Ansi standard?? seriously!! we cant enforce enviromental pollution laws & the EPA & DEP are pretty large & well funded!!

the practices you abandoned are good, however over here those contracts are "BID" on, they have a Spec, you bid pertaining to that spec & the low bid usually wins!!

I am a member of the ISA & several other organizations, WHY? cuz in order to obtain some contracts it is better if you show an affiliation with them rather than not! does it make my biz better?....NO! my work ethic is & always was the same! these type contracts only make up a small% of my biz anyway!!


LXT................

Dont know if outofmytree replied to this, would be interesting to see his take on how to enforce ANSI standards & other safety practices....at a minimal cost.....as he put it!!!!!




LXT...........

 

[outofmytree]

Now thats a Fallacy, you can equip your crew with all the safety gear in the world....SAFETY is still their responsibility!!!....what you speak of is the problem with America!!!....someone always wants someone else to take responsibility, One needs to take responsibility for ones own actions!!!

No company can micro manage to a level where each employee is overseen by a safety consultant to make sure they are "properly" adhering to "EVERY" rule!! your guys are breaking the rules!!!!! you just dont know about it & you are a fool if you think otherwise, unless you are a one man operation!

Funny how you skipped the paragraph about the "big" employers & how they work it: again.... Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient!! If you are telling me you have NEVER...NEVER, EVER..bent or broke a safety rule then Id have to say you are a LIAR!!

Personally, my Team & I do our best to adhere to all safety rules, there are times when...even safety requires you to "take the shot", sometimes there is just no completely safe way to do something.....you can only do it the safest way possible...this is were the book smart non-working types are lost!! well what does the book say....

Someone mentioned in an earlier post about have endorsements or ranks put beside their ISA CA cert. #.....I think it should state "working" or "non-working"......let them explain that to the customer...yeah im a certified arborist....but I cant actually perform the work... I am all in favor of this!!! By the way getting back on track...ANSI is the standard to follow!!



LXT...............

You are wrong both legally and morally. If you employ someone it is your legal responsibility to ensure you have done all you can to make them and their workplace safe. Go check it out, the information isnt hard to find. Even if it were not a legal requirement it is still a moral one. I cannot fathom how you fail to see that looking out for your workmates is wrong.

Section 8(1) of the Occupational Health and Safety Act 2000 ( OHS Act 2000) states that as an employer you ‘must ensure the health, safety and welfare at work of all the employees’. To meet your responsibilities under the OHS Act 2000, you must provide:

safe premises
safe machinery and substances
safe systems of work
provision of information, instruction, training and supervision
suitable working environment and facilities.
The Act also states that you are responsible for the health and safety of people other than your workers, who may be present at the workplace.

http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/OHS/WORKCOVERSROLEINOHS/OHSRESPONSIBILITIES/Pages/default.aspx#employers

Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient & this is the standard with many companies, How many of us have heard.... "If you dont want to do it thats fine, I`ll find someone else who will".....the underlying fact is that refusal to do something will put you in a less than favorable position!!!!

I did not respond to this paragraph because I am not a "big" employer but I will help your sort this one out too. I have worked for many employers some good and some bad. The last time I was "railroaded" into doing something I did not want to do I was 17. Since then I have worked as I see fit and refused tasks that were beyond me. I have been fired once in the 26 years since then and that was due to my own incompetence. I have received glowing references from many of these employers some of whom I had had stand up arguments over procedure with. Good employers appreciate employees with the spine to say no when it is justified.

Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient!! If you are telling me you have NEVER...NEVER, EVER..bent or broke a safety rule then Id have to say you are a LIAR!!

I am going to assume that you are not outright calling me a liar. That is something easily done on the internet but less readily done to my face. I can tell you I have many times done things that are unsafe. I can also say, without reservation, that I have NEVER asked anyone else to do something that puts them at risk. If there is a tricky cut to make, I make it. If there is a suspect tree to climb I climb it. However with good planning and the ability to sell your skills, it is possible to reduce the risk of hazard to less than crossing a busy road. You simply need to plan ahead.

 

[outofmytree]

Dont know if outofmytree replied to this, would be interesting to see his take on how to enforce ANSI standards & other safety practices....at a minimal cost.....as he put it!!!!!




LXT...........

outofmytree.

We have exactly the same problem. Like I said. Three things are needed.

1.More skills and knowledge for ALL tree workers

2.Regulation as to who may work for gain or profit on trees of a given size

3.Public education so everyone knows that tree work is a skilled trade that must be done by skilled trades people.

The trick of course is finding a system which works in each different country. I doubt there is a one-size-fits-all solution but the bare bones of it will be similar.

outofmytree.
I would suggest that the first and most obvious step would be to regulate at local govt level. Require any work on trees over a given size to be subject to the issue of a permit at a nominal value. The only persons able to gain said permit would be those businesses with the appropriate certification.

outofmytree.
I recently tendered for a City pruning contract and took some time to chat with the tender officers after submission. Since engaging a CertV arborist (our highest qualification) they estimate to have saved over a million dollars by changing their pruning practises. A million dollars in one city council dude! There more than 25 city councils in the metropolitan area in Perth!

Guess how the majority of money was saved? By abandoning topping, applying restorative pruning where possible and picking appropriate tree species for confined areas. Sounds like common sense doesnt it.

Yes, I answered that question over a number of posts in sufficient detail for anyone who chose to read.

 

[computeruser]

I come from an industry, the tattoo and body piercing biz, that is regulated very little, for the most part. The result: Too many shops have sprung into existence, leading to the pie being sliced too thin, then, for anyone to make a good living. The only ones to make great livings in the tree biz, consistently, are those in bed with governing bodies via sweetheart contracts that most of us do not have the finances to pursue. Strict regulation of the residential/commercial tree work market would help keep the hacks out, but many in here just can't seem to understand that. They would rather rag on and on about the hacks and this has no effect on the prevailing situation.

Except that the purpose of regulation is not to pick winners and losers, but rather to ensure that minimum safety standards are being met. There is no constitutional basis for the former, but (slightly) more of a claim for the latter, though it would seem that state-level regulation would be most appropriate, as there is no Health&Safety enumerated power granted to the federal government for it to delegate to its agencies.

The government, federal/state/local, does not exist to ensure that the pie is cut in any particular way. And really, it shouldn't, because to do so is to invite the sort of corruption you see in the 3rd world countries - one's success being contingent upon supplying adequate bribes, having the right connections, etc.

For those who wish to regulate in the interest of safety, that's one thing. For those who wish to regulate in order to change the competitive landscape in the industry, I would warn you to watch out - there is no guarantee that you're always going to be on the side making the rules.

There is no real reason to keep the hacks out, in my opinion. Their work speaks for itself - if it is crappy or unsafe, it will soon be known as such; if it is workmanlike and also happens to be cheaper than the prevailing rate in your market, well then you've got a new competitor. To try to prevent upstarts from entering the marketplace is childish and mean-spirited, really. Sell your own service and knowledge. Be smarter, better, and more competitive. And understand that some customers are only concerned about price, and since there will always be this customer demographic, there will always be contractors whose business model is set up to cater to them.

I recently hired some work done on a number of large oaks overhanging my house. I solicited a handful of bids, but ultimately went with the second most expensive bid because the company is run by an actual certified arborist who knew what he was talking about when he came out to evaluate the trees and give me an estimate. His firm has a good reputation in the community. His insurance coverage met my requirements. His climbers were capable of stringing an intelligent sentence together (in English) when I was chatting with them before they started work. His equipment, though not brand new, was clean and it was obvious that they took pride in their work and their tools. Communication before the job started was very good. The job was done quickly, on time, at cost, and clean-up was handled well. They acknowledged a bit of damage that a branch did to my gutters, and offered to address it; I declined the offer, since it was so minor, but did appreciate the gesture. I would recommend this firm to others, gladly.

 

[lxt]

You are wrong both legally and morally. If you employ someone it is your legal responsibility to ensure you have done all you can to make them and their workplace safe. Go check it out, the information isnt hard to find. Even if it were not a legal requirement it is still a moral one. I cannot fathom how you fail to see that looking out for your workmates is wrong.




http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/OHS/WORKCOVERSROLEINOHS/OHSRESPONSIBILITIES/Pages/default.aspx#employers



I did not respond to this paragraph because I am not a "big" employer but I will help your sort this one out too. I have worked for many employers some good and some bad. The last time I was "railroaded" into doing something I did not want to do I was 17. Since then I have worked as I see fit and refused tasks that were beyond me. I have been fired once in the 26 years since then and that was due to my own incompetence. I have received glowing references from many of these employers some of whom I had had stand up arguments over procedure with. Good employers appreciate employees with the spine to say no when it is justified.



I am going to assume that you are not outright calling me a liar. That is something easily done on the internet but less readily done to my face. I can tell you I have many times done things that are unsafe. I can also say, without reservation, that I have NEVER asked anyone else to do something that puts them at risk. If there is a tricky cut to make, I make it. If there is a suspect tree to climb I climb it. However with good planning and the ability to sell your skills, it is possible to reduce the risk of hazard to less than crossing a busy road. You simply need to plan ahead.

You only mentioned part of the act pertaining to Osha, & made it sound like more than what it is!!!

You are responsible to Supply, Train, Enforce, Adhere to, Insure, ETC.. to the best of your ability as a company!!! You are not & I`ll repeat it again you are not resposible for anyones safety other than your own...In AMERICA,

Morally do you need to watch out for others? YES, as far as the public goes ones work area is to be safegaurded as per what the regulations state, am I responsible for the car speeding through the work zone (set up properly) who hits my worker...gets out of his car & slips on a patch of ice & then hurts himself.......NO!!! he broke the law...not me!! according to the way you think I would be responsible!!

You should perhaps read some case law pertaining to WC filings & just how much resposibility "a reasonable person" , "employer" or "employee" can be held accountable for!!

You are not a "big" employer....so what! regulation means everyone is treated the same...I was giving you real life experiences based on what those who may aide in laying down the rules for the rest of us have done!

Yes...If you would have told me you never broke the rules I would call you a Liar.......!! on the internet or to your face...doesnt matter to me! cuz I know everyone has broke the rules somewhere sometime!! & what big companies have you worked for that APPRECIATE you telling them NO, im not doing that? cuz over here my man.....you would be jammed!!

It is apparent you dont know how the American system fully works, you base everything off your country.....here there are loop holes for everything, Believe me......the rulings & Law are a little different as far as responsibilty goes!!


LXT...................

 

[outofmytree]

Except that the purpose of regulation is not to pick winners and losers, but rather to ensure that minimum safety standards are being met. There is no constitutional basis for the former, but (slightly) more of a claim for the latter, though it would seem that state-level regulation would be most appropriate, as there is no Health&Safety enumerated power granted to the federal government for it to delegate to its agencies.

The government, federal/state/local, does not exist to ensure that the pie is cut in any particular way. And really, it shouldn't, because to do so is to invite the sort of corruption you see in the 3rd world countries - one's success being contingent upon supplying adequate bribes, having the right connections, etc.

For those who wish to regulate in the interest of safety, that's one thing. For those who wish to regulate in order to change the competitive landscape in the industry, I would warn you to watch out - there is no guarantee that you're always going to be on the side making the rules.

There is no real reason to keep the hacks out, in my opinion. Their work speaks for itself - if it is crappy or unsafe, it will soon be known as such; if it is workmanlike and also happens to be cheaper than the prevailing rate in your market, well then you've got a new competitor. To try to prevent upstarts from entering the marketplace is childish and mean-spirited, really. Sell your own service and knowledge. Be smarter, better, and more competitive. And understand that some customers are only concerned about price, and since there will always be this customer demographic, there will always be contractors whose business model is set up to cater to them.

I recently hired some work done on a number of large oaks overhanging my house. I solicited a handful of bids, but ultimately went with the second most expensive bid because the company is run by an actual certified arborist who knew what he was talking about when he came out to evaluate the trees and give me an estimate. His firm has a good reputation in the community. His insurance coverage met my requirements. His climbers were capable of stringing an intelligent sentence together (in English) when I was chatting with them before they started work. His equipment, though not brand new, was clean and it was obvious that they took pride in their work and their tools. Communication before the job started was very good. The job was done quickly, on time, at cost, and clean-up was handled well. They acknowledged a bit of damage that a branch did to my gutters, and offered to address it; I declined the offer, since it was so minor, but did appreciate the gesture. I would recommend this firm to others, gladly.

Right on the nail. I make the same sorts of judgements when I hire in others and present my business the same way. Know your work, do it well, charge a fair rate and go home safe.

 

[clearance]

Actually it can be more of an issue because both wires are white. Years ago a friend of mine was electrocuted changing a light bulb, fortunately not fatally. The HO who had decided to do their own wiring put the switch across the neutral only. Result live (deadly) potential even when switch turned off.

Your friend was shocked, not electrocuted. That means killed by electricity. Like beheaded, or hung, or executed, that type of thing.

 

[outofmytree]

You only mentioned part of the act pertaining to Osha, & made it sound like more than what it is!!!

You are responsible to Supply, Train, Enforce, Adhere to, Insure, ETC.. to the best of your ability as a company!!! You are not & I`ll repeat it again you are not resposible for anyones safety other than your own...In AMERICA,

Morally do you need to watch out for others? YES, as far as the public goes ones work area is to be safegaurded as per what the regulations state, am I responsible for the car speeding through the work zone (set up properly) who hits my worker...gets out of his car & slips on a patch of ice & then hurts himself.......NO!!! he broke the law...not me!! according to the way you think I would be responsible!!

You should perhaps read some case law pertaining to WC filings & just how much resposibility "a reasonable person" , "employer" or "employee" can be held accountable for!!

You are not a "big" employer....so what! regulation means everyone is treated the same...I was giving you real life experiences based on what those who may aide in laying down the rules for the rest of us have done!

Yes...If you would have told me you never broke the rules I would call you a Liar.......!! on the internet or to your face...doesnt matter to me! cuz I know everyone has broke the rules somewhere sometime!! & what big companies have you worked for that APPRECIATE you telling them NO, im not doing that? cuz over here my man.....you would be jammed!!

It is apparent you dont know how the American system fully works, you base everything off your country.....here there are loop holes for everything, Believe me......the rulings & Law are a little different as far as responsibilty goes!!


LXT...................

outofmytree.

We have exactly the same problem. Like I said. Three things are needed.

1.More skills and knowledge for ALL tree workers

2.Regulation as to who may work for gain or profit on trees of a given size

3.Public education so everyone knows that tree work is a skilled trade that must be done by skilled trades people.

The trick of course is finding a system which works in each different country. I doubt there is a one-size-fits-all solution but the bare bones of it will be similar.

Try reading it again slowly. Especially the red part.

lxt.

dont be fooled by my Bio, I am 2nd generation in tree care, while my age is not where you are I have been taught by many with much more time than you have...I respect the time, teaching & love by those such as yourself greatly!!! most of my time is in the field, hands on!

Reach into your vast experience that you have posted about and bring out a solution. As you rightly pointed out it is your country and your industry. Surely you have some thoughts on how it may improve?

 

[outofmytree]

Your friend was shocked, not electrocuted. That means killed by electricity. Like beheaded, or hung, or executed, that type of thing.

How do you get beheaded by electricity?:monkey:

 

[clearance]

How do you get beheaded by electricity?:monkey:

I thought you would know what I meant, but funnily enough-there was a thread here some time back, and another thread asking if it was true about just that. The story goes that a guy was climbing a tree close to a high voltage power line. He leaned back and his neck touched the line and burned his head off, his body fell to the ground. Later someone had to knock his head off with a pole. This was here, swear to God, not making it up, people swore it was true. Now its late a night, maybe I sound like a total pos but its too funny, true or not. I am going to hell for that, I know.:jawdrop:

 

[EdenT]

Your friend was shocked, not electrocuted. That means killed by electricity. Like beheaded, or hung, or executed, that type of thing.

Thanks for the clarification clearance. He was shocked, just as I was by your gruesome anecdote. Oh hang on, that might be nauseated....

 

[treevet]

You are responsible to Supply, Train, Enforce, Adhere to, Insure, ETC.. to the best of your ability as a company!!! You are not & I`ll repeat it again you are not resposible for anyones safety other than your own...In AMERICA,

What a patently stooopit statement. You claim intelligence but you are dumb as a rock. You are a long winded blowhard (assclown was mentioned by another poster recently in a thread of the exact same subject). You are likely a miserable soul MIRED in mediocrity. Please learn how to spell or get spell check.

It is apparent you dont know how the American system fully works, you base everything off your country.....here there are loop holes for everything, Believe me......the rulings & Law are a little different as far as responsibilty goes!!

If you were in school I would vote you most likely to end up in court.....and then jail and then bankrupt.

You are against credentials.

You are against govt. legislating tree company procedure on private property.

You are against employer liability on any safety issues for injured employees.

What do you do for a living? Are you in "Daddy's" company (2nd gen tree guy). Tell me a little about yourself. What do you think about trees? What have you read.

What do you believe in? You knock everything but what is your solution to hacks beating up trees and giving professionals a bad name? Is it everyone get a college degree (when one comes available in Arboriculture)? What do we do NOW??? Lots of way smarter minds have things well in hand IMO.


LXT.........WHAT A BLOWHARD

 

[Bermie]

Whoa. TVet...take it easy!!

I am actually quite enjoying the back and forth between lxt and oomt...no need to descend into petty name calling, each chap has his position and point and so far they are conducting a fairly reasonable exchange...

Chill out man...oomt seems more than capable of holding his own!

 

[treevet]

Whoa. TVet...take it easy!!

I am actually quite enjoying the back and forth between lxt and oomt...:

who died and made you a mod? This thread isn't solely for your entertainment alone. You are JUST another poster out there in cyberspace.

 

[Bermie]

who died and made you a mod? This thread isn't solely for your entertainment alone. You are JUST another poster out there in cyberspace.

okaaayyyy, backing away slowly...peace brother

 

[treevet]

okaaayyyy, backing away slowly...peace brother

My wife is real good at playing the victim when she is wrong too.

 

[lxt]

Try reading it again slowly. Especially the red part.



Reach into your vast experience that you have posted about and bring out a solution. As you rightly pointed out it is your country and your industry. Surely you have some thoughts on how it may improve?

I have read the "red" part....you have failed to answer how we enforce the Ansi standards we already have????? you have failed to mention where this Money will come from???? you have failed to realize... that more dont care than do care & therefore our field is not a "current" priority!!

IN MY VAST EXPERIENCE......I dont know how many times I can keep telling this guy this.... Untill our field has a degree associated with it making the CA credential a "necessity" to have for work in this field......& to have the ability to enforce rules that already exist....then all we are discussing here doesnt mean crap!

As mean & cruel as some will find this: our field doesnt hold that much of a priority for regulation, enforcement or to become a degree course....if it truly ranked with...say a Nurse, then there would be courses at colleges offering Associate degrees, etc... & the CA wouldnt be "certified" it would be a mandatory License!!! here in PA an LPN.....even has a degree associated with it!!

Your mind & heart might be in the right place but here in the states it takes money to implement things, to obtain money to put forth any type of license, degree program or other is not gonna be a burden the American Tax Payer is gonna foot................So untill you figure out where the $$$$ will come from to do that which you are stating then your point is a moot one at best!

so the 1,2,3s you have mentioned......goodluck with that, we already have training for tree workers along with knowledge based studies! Who may work for gain or profit by regulation I have already explained to you several times.
Public education has been an ongoing thing that ISA, TCIA & the Arbor day foundation have been doing for years........they can only do what the $$$ lets em do!!

SOooooo until you come up with those solutions...then things here will keep on keeping on!!


LXT................

 

[lxt]

What a patently stooopit statement. You claim intelligence but you are dumb as a rock. You are a long winded blowhard (assclown was mentioned by another poster recently in a thread of the exact same subject). You are likely a miserable soul MIRED in mediocrity. Please learn how to spell or get spell check.




If you were in school I would vote you most likely to end up in court.....and then jail and then bankrupt.

You are against credentials.

You are against govt. legislating tree company procedure on private property.

You are against employer liability on any safety issues for injured employees.

What do you do for a living? Are you in "Daddy's" company (2nd gen tree guy). Tell me a little about yourself. What do you think about trees? What have you read.

What do you believe in? You knock everything but what is your solution to hacks beating up trees and giving professionals a bad name? Is it everyone get a college degree (when one comes available in Arboriculture)? What do we do NOW??? Lots of way smarter minds have things well in hand IMO.


LXT.........WHAT A BLOWHARD

Treewang..............look pap, you are a mere backup in my bowel that the proctologists finger couldnt reach!! Dont like my spelling....I got 2 words for ya!! watch WWE to find out what they are!!

You live in OHIO, cincinatti to boot......land of no inspection or emmissions for cars, land of high unemployment....Took law & know the law....never been in jail or to court & money is not a problem Granpa!!

Im against meaningless certs, certs making non-climbing arborists like you equal with climbing certified arborists!! certs made up for those who "love" trees & just want to play in some of the reindeer games!!

I am against Govt legislation on private Propert.... ya shaft stump....ITS PRIVATE PROPERTY I believe one should be able to do what they want on their property!!! If I want to "top" a 200 yr old oak for the hell of it, thats my property & my RIGHT!.............I would never & wouldnt even want to see that done!!........its that persons property!!

You are an erection filled with pus if you think you even have the right to tell someone what they should do on their property...let alone the Govt. who has more than enough invaded my privacy.!

Im not against employer liability, safety starts every morning when you look in the mirror (hard for you I know), ultimately if one of my employees gets injured he is covered by WC, But it is not my babysitting responsibility to powder his azz & watch him every second of every day....he has to take "responsibility for himself" too!

I own a tree company & operate it, I am LCTT certified...thats line clearance ole boy I started right out of high school at 18 apprenticed through the local union working for big orange, I have worked for several employers by way of a multi-employer contract.........I have ran crew for Davey & lewis along with others!

No, its not my Dads biz, but he works my stump grinding section!! my funds, my time, my investment!............My Company..www.dougstreecare.com my site will tell you more! I hesitate to put it on here.... but hey, I can take whatever.......unlike you!!

to state what I believe??? that would be my opinion....how bout you show us your website Mr 40+ years of reading! wheres your pics of you doing anything? I have posted some, as a matter of fact my site will have an embedded video soon showing my team & I in action!

you are just a disgrundled senior citizen with hemoroids!! too much sitting & reading!! get up, work out that arthritis & live pap!! there is more to life than trees........I can compete with the hacks, dont like em!!! but makes my rep just that much better when customers view mine to theirs.

Treevet............you have an idealistic approach that is geared for your own profit, not the betterment of the industry & an approach that goes against ones rights....property, personal & work!!........................

You sir are a prolapsed rectum without the foresight or ability to find a toilet for the deposit of your fodder!! Treevet..meatwhistle more like it!!




LXT...............