Do we REALLY want regulatory control?

[lxt]

You are always scared to death "somebody is doing a "MONEY GRAB" on your money" lol.

My guess is you don't have much money to grab and that is why you think everyone is after your last little bits.

You gotta spend money to make money. Don't let your cert. lapse if you haven't already. You will be sorry you did.

And yeah, you're right ofcourse, nobody should EVER worry about any tree falling on anyone hahahahahahah

You are funny!!...I have enough money to live very comfortable, put my daughter through college, build a music studio & own some nice toys, etc..etc.. very happy with what God gives me & thankful too.

I do spend money to make money, I dont like working hard for my cash to have some impotent rule maker dip into my cookie jar......theft is theft!

yeah I know.......poor pruning jobs & the fatality rate from such are always listed in the TCIA magazine.....NOT! LMFAO,

with your fortune & ideas many would question why wouldnt you hire a regulated biz with certified personnel to clean out your chimney stack on the ole mobilehome.......hell fires from such as you have done are very frequent, should be certified to do that!!



LXT....................

 

[outofmytree]

God help us if this is ever put into law, how absolutely f:censored:ing stupid this is!! chainsaw ticket??? what? this is taking it way too far, what next?......snow blower license, how about a "child bearing" license?

Regulate our industry? It needs something, but nothing this absurd! Australia has an anti gun law too, dont they? try passing that here in the US!

Setting up a standard of betterment for our trade is a good thing but middle ground must be found, even though we complain about hacks...they still must be given time to adjust!

IMHO regulations never work cuz someone always corrupts the system especially at the state & federal levels, put the burden on the consumer....after all they are the ones who complain! they werent complaining when ole billy bob undercut the competition by hundreds of $$$, heres the problem!!

Ho`s want the cheapest price & the best work not realizing that is not the case most of the time, then when their $75 lawn guy pruning looks like crap smear on an oak leaf they wanna cry foul!!! who really is a fault for low quality workmanship?....thats where it has to start!!


LXT..............

You mean you don't have a chainsaw ticket? Seriously? There is no course in the US which teaches chainsaw safety and handling?

Do you have a drivers license?

What an over the top reaction to simple common sense. Electricians, plumbers, builders and even house painters over here are registered. So when you call a tradesman to your house you can ask to see their certification. If you choose not to ask that's your call but go do a yellow pages search and see how many companies list their cert number in their ads.

No matter what method is used to "improve our trade" be assured some part of it must be government regulation. Just as some part of it must be industry driven and the largest part must be consumer education.

Regulation as some are stating will just be another money grab for local, state or federal!!...........

Could you show me something other than anti regulation paranoia? Your electricians, plumbers, builders etc are licensed right? Does the licensing of trades in the construction industry seriously generate income for the government? Could you provide some concrete evidence of this?

I don't want the taxman sinking his claws into my hide anymore than you do. I also want to see the standard of work in our trade rise as a whole. You do not meet broke electricans, broke plumbers or broke builders or broke house painters over here because to earn in those trades you need certication. I know a few broke arborists. Do you?

 

[Live Oak]

You mean you don't have a chainsaw ticket? Seriously? There is no course in the US which teaches chainsaw safety and handling?

Do you have a drivers license?

What an over the top reaction to simple common sense. Electricians, plumbers, builders and even house painters over here are registered. So when you call a tradesman to your house you can ask to see their certification. If you choose not to ask that's your call but go do a yellow pages search and see how many companies list their cert number in their ads.

No matter what method is used to "improve our trade" be assured some part of it must be government regulation. Just as some part of it must be industry driven and the largest part must be consumer education.



Could you show me something other than anti regulation paranoia? Your electricians, plumbers, builders etc are licensed right? Does the licensing of trades in the construction industry seriously generate income for the government? Could you provide some concrete evidence of this?

I don't want the taxman sinking his claws into my hide anymore than you do. I also want to see the standard of work in our trade rise as a whole. You do not meet broke electricans, broke plumbers or broke builders or broke house painters over here because to earn in those trades you need certication. I know a few broke arborists. Do you?

I climbed some trees for a 20 year old company in december & the ground crew definitely had not been taught chainsaw safety. first time they started a saw i came down & gave them the course. don't think it took me 10 minutes.

 

[lxt]

Here in PA, businesses such as home improvement contractors, framers, cabinet installers, floor tile installs, drywallers, painters, et... did not need a license!!!

Now the Atty General passed a law stating that businesses in the above line(s) of work will need to pay a registration fee & obtain a #, this costs $50.00 a year.....they did the same thing in Philly years ago & now the registration fee is $4-500.00 not exactly sure.

Pa is a state in financial trouble, I see what they are putting into place as a "census" for small biz, a way to make money to pull them outta financial turmoil that they will ultimately abuse & then will raise the costs over N over, just like the "turnpike" tolls & the state wanting to make other roads "toll" roads.....they want the money!!!!

tradesman here are viewed a little differently, yes we have chainsaw safety classes (voluntary), yes I have a CDL license...totally different animal as far as regulation IMO, here a licensed plumber can have many work under his license.......just like pest/herb license...the holder can have many applicators under his license as long as he is within a certain distance from them, 50 mile radius I think.

Painters, drywallers, floor installers & home framers did not need a license or need registration until july 2009????

I agree in part with what you are saying!!! but many want to compare our trade to doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc...when our education level is not the same, when the society importance of our trade is not the same, etc.. I wish it was!! Like I said in an earlier post...who will set the standard for the local, state or federal level to go by!!!

over here & in PA you can start a lawn service/landscape serv with no experience, no license & a general liability policy thats almost non existant, some of these contractors dont even carry liabilty...especially grass cutters!


LXT............

 

[treevet]

why wouldnt you hire a regulated biz with certified personnel to clean out your chimney stack on the ole mobilehome.......

Not cause I am all worried about the big "money grab" or "impotence" or whatever you are worried about....but because I have a chimney even a chimney sweep couldn't clean so I do it myself with my cherry picker, on my $400,000 dollar "mobile home". A hillbilly like you should appreciate that.

 

[treevet]

I agree in part with what you are saying!!! but many want to compare our trade to doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc...when our education level is not the same, when the society importance of our trade is not the same, etc.. I wish it was!!

speak for yourself............well I guess you already did. Crack a book once in a while and quit worrying about the pandemic money grab lol.

 

[lxt]

Not cause I am all worried about the big "money grab" or "impotence" or whatever you are worried about....but because I have a chimney even a chimney sweep couldn't clean so I do it myself with my cherry picker, on my $400,000 dollar "mobile home". A hillbilly like you should appreciate that.

Well thats good for you, funny how you want regulation to weed out the hacks??? I mean, Hell you`re doing so good why would you care!

Glad your mobile home appraised for so much....especially in cincinatti ohio....guess what? my mobile home is right there with yours,

money grab= taxes in my eyes, guess you like taxes??? I pay uncle sam enough....so yes I get a little ruffled when other entities want to regulate/certify/accredate, etc... just for the sake of it, cuz our trade can produce a good buck!!

Impotence....was refering to people of a like mind to yours!! people who want everything regulated no matter what the cost!!! cuz they dont like the "hacks"....ever notice how an industry becomes regulated when its a growing (everbody`s doing it) business, then when the bottom falls out or it stabilizes it becomes de-regulated....cuz the Govt. doesnt want to continue waisting its resources on regulating it!!

Ill speak again for myself, we are not Doctors, nurses, lawyers, pshycologists, or Phd holders...most of us anyway!! most CA`s have no Assoc. degree let alone a BA.....we cannot think that we are on the same playing field as the above mentioned people are... you might want to!!! As do I, sorry not gonna happen untill colleges start having Arboriculture degrees...making the Arborist credential (in specific)...a nationally recognized program of study, a neccesitive degree to obtain employment in a desired field!............Right now it is VOLUNTARY...& if you can climb/operate a bucket you are gonna get hired without the CA cert!

BTW....I am reading an article right now! Organochlorines & Neonicotinoids!......Ohh did I mention in my "mobile home" I have a music library & law library....literally!!!! so reading has never been a problem!! Im not really a hillbilly...........more like a metal maniac! shred power!!


LXT..................

 

[treevet]

Ill speak again for myself, we are not Doctors, nurses, lawyers, pshycologists, or Phd holders...most of us anyway!! most CA`s have no Assoc. degree let alone a BA.....we cannot think that we are on the same

I know you think we are on the same level of knowledge but it doesn't take much intuition to figure out the we are not. I have been studying trees for over 40 years...books, seminars, articles, etc, etc. I have been to countless Shigo seminars and used to go to a weeklong seminar he had with only 25 students who each had their own microscopes. I have all of his work and have read it and basically understand all of it.

Shigo used to say...."When you leave here you will still be confused however you will be on a MUCH higher level of confusion". Every day of the week I read for at least 2 hours about trees. I have around 100 texts on all aspects of trees and all of the ones suggested by the ISA. I have read all of them. I often re read them and have more background to gain more understanding of them.

I am trying to get through "Diagnosis and Prognosis of the Development of Wood Decay in Urban Trees" by Francis Schwarze. It is a way hard read but I will get through it and I plan to take another current class at Ohio State soon by Dr. Enrico Bonello on "Diseases of Shade Trees" and then re read this text with more understanding.

What I am trying to say here is "we" you keep using meaning I suppose..."all us guys that passed the Cert test" like you are vastly different than you assume. I passed that test 18 years ago without studying and the 30 credits I am supposed to get every three years is probably 1 percent of what I study in that span or less.

Don't think I am condescending to a CA but rather am proud of anyone that takes it and keeps it .....but there are many, many like me out there that just LOVE to study trees rather than being burdened by it or inconvenienced by it or money grabbed by it like you imply. We probably put in at least as much time reading as a doctor or nurse, etc., and the subject matter is just as complex.

 

[lxt]

Treevet,

I must in your case concede! honestly, If what you are saying is true then I understand were you are coming from, I was referring to many such as myself in all honesty!

dont be fooled by my Bio, I am 2nd generation in tree care, while my age is not where you are I have been taught by many with much more time than you have...I respect the time, teaching & love by those such as yourself greatly!!! most of my time is in the field, hands on!

Im not trying to have a Pizzin match or anything...The average person will not & I repeat will not!! acknowledge what we do on a level that most of us here want them to...unless awareness is raised & IMO colleges, universities & trade schools will need to start promoting it on a level as the other degree/certification programs are on!! JMHO

I tell people I am an ISA CA & most dont even know what an "Arborist" is or what they do?? & these are college Grads in some instances!!


LXT................

 

[outofmytree]

I climbed some trees for a 20 year old company in december & the ground crew definitely had been taught chainsaw safety. first time they started a saw i came down & gave them the course. don't think it took me 10 minutes.

My point exactly. We have many such examples over here. If you want to do this work for gain or profit then some minimum skills training should be mandatory. If the owner of the company you climbed for had an ounce of integrity those guys would have already known the basics. Sometimes it is not enough to hope that employers will train their people to keep them alive, sometimes regulation of some sort is required to make sure it is done.

tradesman here are viewed a little differently, yes we have chainsaw safety classes (voluntary), yes I have a CDL license...totally different animal as far as regulation IMO, here a licensed plumber can have many work under his license.......just like pest/herb license...the holder can have many applicators under his license as long as he is within a certain distance from them, 50 mile radius I think.

Interesting geographical differences. That system needs fixing. Imagine the pain of plumbing that backs up because the "supervisor" was 49 miles away when the unskilled labour put the wrong size pipe in then buried it 2 feet down. Or if you prefer, the pain of replacing half your roof because the unskilled labour dropped the top of a tree on it because the CA was on the other side of town quoting a job.

I tell people I am an ISA CA & most dont even know what an "Arborist" is or what they do?? & these are college Grads in some instances!!

Oh your an Arborist. Something to do with boats?

We have exactly the same problem. Like I said. Three things are needed.

1.More skills and knowledge for ALL tree workers

2.Regulation as to who may work for gain or profit on trees of a given size

3.Public education so everyone knows that tree work is a skilled trade that must be done by skilled trades people.

The trick of course is finding a system which works in each different country. I doubt there is a one-size-fits-all solution but the bare bones of it will be similar.

 

[D Mc]

Don't think I am condescending to a CA but rather am proud of anyone that takes it and keeps it .....but there are many, many like me out there that just LOVE to study trees rather than being burdened by it or inconvenienced by it or money grabbed by it like you imply. We probably put in at least as much time reading as a doctor or nurse, etc., and the subject matter is just as complex.

Well said.

Dave

 

[treevet]

Well said.

Dave

Was thinking of you both when I said that along with others.

 

[lxt]

Treevet, out of curiosity? what title in arboriculture do you hold?

Love for studying trees is very admirable & not aiming this at you, BUT...many like you think that the book side of it with no hands on is fine!!! Hopefully you are not one of those!!!!

One can read books & go to seminars & have alex shigo talk to em all they want.....but if they havent work aloft....then to me their book smarts is just that, it has no real life experience to it & honestly my respect for those people is less than it would be for a non-certified climber with 10yrs. exp.

Im not sure if what you`re saying is 40yrs reading & studying or combined reading, studying, climbing/working aloft????

One can read all they want about trees......there is still no comparison to a Doctor, Nurse, Surgeon, Vet, etc.... If you think so, thats your biz!!but try telling the Mom with the dead tree in the back yard taking care of her sick baby.....that your book smarts pertaining to trees are just as good as the Doctor/Nusre who cared for her sick child..........good luck with that!

As far as the Complexity, you cannot even begin to compare Trees & shrubbery to the human anatomy & its workings, thats a very ridiculous statement!!! If one thinks it compares, I`d say go study to be a Doctor then!!......you will make more money, gain more respect & basically the demand for such makes it recession proof!!

Hopefully when regulation comes upon us......those with hands on experience & certifications will be the voice instituting such, 40 yrs studying is a long time............but without hands on!!! I`ll say my experience is just as good if not better in a real life situation!!! Im pretty sure you have hands on!!



LXT.................

 

[jrr344]

corps

Regulation is code for; destroy the little guy and prop up huge corps. The normal tree pruner cannot afford to meet the regulations, which are usually overkill to put it nicely. Usually these regulation are brought on by the big corps lobbiest trying to destroy any competition.

 

[outofmytree]

Treevet, out of curiosity? what title in arboriculture do you hold?

Love for studying trees is very admirable & not aiming this at you, BUT...many like you think that the book side of it with no hands on is fine!!! Hopefully you are not one of those!!!!

One can read books & go to seminars & have alex shigo talk to em all they want.....but if they havent work aloft....then to me their book smarts is just that, it has no real life experience to it & honestly my respect for those people is less than it would be for a non-certified climber with 10yrs. exp.

Im not sure if what you`re saying is 40yrs reading & studying or combined reading, studying, climbing/working aloft????

One can read all they want about trees......there is still no comparison to a Doctor, Nurse, Surgeon, Vet, etc.... If you think so, thats your biz!!but try telling the Mom with the dead tree in the back yard taking care of her sick baby.....that your book smarts pertaining to trees are just as good as the Doctor/Nusre who cared for her sick child..........good luck with that!

As far as the Complexity, you cannot even begin to compare Trees & shrubbery to the human anatomy & its workings, thats a very ridiculous statement!!! If one thinks it compares, I`d say go study to be a Doctor then!!......you will make more money, gain more respect & basically the demand for such makes it recession proof!!

Hopefully when regulation comes upon us......those with hands on experience & certifications will be the voice instituting such, 40 yrs studying is a long time............but without hands on!!! I`ll say my experience is just as good if not better in a real life situation!!! Im pretty sure you have hands on!!



LXT.................

Dude have you been living in a cave? TV doesnt need me or anyone else to hold his hand but all you need to do is read a few of his posts and see he is the real deal. Go have a look.

As for the trade as a whole. I would love to hear what ideas you have as to how it can be improved across the board. Throw em out there and lets see if you have a few gems of your own.

 

[outofmytree]

Regulation is code for; destroy the little guy and prop up huge corps. They normal tree pruner cannot afford to meet the regulations, which are usually overkill to put it nicely. Usually these regulation are brought on by the big corps lobbiest trying to destroy any competition.

Welcome aboard JR. I do like your signature quote!

I agree that uncontrolled regulation often does exactly what you say. Unrestricted trading hours have had that effect on small retailers in other states of Australia and it is no surprise to discover that major retailers want them in my little part of the country too.

It is for this reason that I suggest more than simply regulation to improve our trade. Furthermore, if you scroll back to Bermies post, she is taking an ACTIVE part in new regulations and is, like me, a one truck operation.

Reminds of a song from way back.

"keep talking 'bout the government won't stop air pollution,
put your hand over your mouth when you cough that'll help the solution".

I guess The Cane Gang thought actions were worth more than words too.

 

[lxt]

:agree2:, pretty much what Ive been saying, the costs associated with it will ruin alot of businesses...the good along with the bad!!!

I believe we need something, but not what outofmytree`s area has dictated! & whether its a likes term or not "money grab"....this is just what any regulation, additional certification, License, etc... will be!!!

I just dont get it, when a business files taxes...they`re registered, when they Incorporate...they`re registered, etc... who & what law should set a minimum standard? in most cases this is why alot of home owners do it themselves!!! yes... with consequences!!!

On my property I can do my own plumbing, electrical, roofing, framing...you name it!! Yes....ME!.....I am in the last stage of my renovation...took me some 5+ yrs, I hired contractors to do most of the above...wanted it done right!!! But...there is no law saying I cant do it myself...as long as it meets code (which is a joke)! there is no code enforcment officer for the proper care of trees, even if there was??? the home owner could still do the work as long as it met code & in some instances would do it regardless!

Could you see this? hell the building trades code officers are in short supply, I couldnt even imagine a code officer for tree care!!!




LXT................

 

[treevet]

Dude have you been living in a cave? TV doesnt need me or anyone else to hold his hand but all you need to do is read a few of his posts and see he is the real deal. Go have a look.

As for the trade as a whole. I would love to hear what ideas you have as to how it can be improved across the board. Throw em out there and lets see if you have a few gems of your own.

thanks for getting my back bro

 

[outofmytree]

:agree2:, pretty much what Ive been saying, the costs associated with it will ruin alot of businesses...the good along with the bad!!!

I believe we need something, but not what outofmytree`s area has dictated! & whether its a likes term or not "money grab"....this is just what any regulation, additional certification, License, etc... will be!!!

I just dont get it, when a business files taxes...they`re registered, when they Incorporate...they`re registered, etc... who & what law should set a minimum standard? in most cases this is why alot of home owners do it themselves!!! yes... with consequences!!!

On my property I can do my own plumbing, electrical, roofing, framing...you name it!! Yes....ME!.....I am in the last stage of my renovation...took me some 5+ yrs, I hired contractors to do most of the above...wanted it done right!!! But...there is no law saying I cant do it myself...as long as it meets code (which is a joke)! there is no code enforcment officer for the proper care of trees, even if there was??? the home owner could still do the work as long as it met code & in some instances would do it regardless!

Could you see this? hell the building trades code officers are in short supply, I couldnt even imagine a code officer for tree care!!!




LXT................

Never worked outside Australia so this is news to me. Is it correct that ANYONE can do domestic electrical fitting without a trade certificate? IMO that is insanity. My opinion aside I would like to know if this is actually legal. God help the next owner if the "installer" was colourblind.

I see that you said "on your own property" does this mean you can not perform say, electrical work, for gain or profit without license?

 

[jrr344]

Welcome aboard JR. I do like your signature quote!

I agree that uncontrolled regulation often does exactly what you say. Unrestricted trading hours have had that effect on small retailers in other states of Australia and it is no surprise to discover that major retailers want them in my little part of the country too.

It is for this reason that I suggest more than simply regulation to improve our trade. Furthermore, if you scroll back to Bermies post, she is taking an ACTIVE part in new regulations and is, like me, a one truck operation.

Reminds of a song from way back.

"keep talking 'bout the government won't stop air pollution,
put your hand over your mouth when you cough that'll help the solution".

I guess The Cane Gang thought actions were worth more than words too.

Never works like that though, you can't just have a little regulation. The government always over regulates, the only thing you can do is do it as responsible as you can so the gonvernment doesn't meddle.They don't know anything about the businesses they regulate anyways and they only ask people with a one sided political agenda so I say they should stay out of it.