Do you know what tree is going to kill you?

[Michigan Escapee]

So that's why I see those guys cutting the same wood over again. No they dont look like fun. An unpredictable pain in the ass. Can't you guys blow some of those up? I mean theres no value in them when they slab out like that right? Or is that not practical?

In rare circumstances, you can use explosives to "cut" the tree, like this one.

But in practical terms, there's no fracture plane like in rock, metal, brick, etc. So, you're pounding an amorphous material, full of water of course, lignin, other springy stuff, and that's gonna take LOTS of explosives. Unless you can use something for cutting, say a sheet of copper, or something else that will work as an explosive formed perpetrator to cut the material.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator

All of this requires planning, some idea what the density and composition of the material is is, and about 4-5 explosive techs messing around for maybe 3-4 hours, and each billing out at about $150-450 an hour. That's for one big tree like in the picture.

Smaller trees, say something under 14-16 inches, you can probably use a more or less standard I beam cut charge used for building demolition.

Smaller than 10 inches, you could probably just do about 5 loops of det cord, and call it good. But, all of em are most likely going to fall in a random direction unless you set up the cut planes, and delays, as if you were using an actual chainsaw. lol!

So how many saw monkeys can you hire for about $150 an hour, compared to a bunch of explosives techs? LOTS and LOTS!

Also the big problem of using explosives is, you generate loads of noise, you have to zone off a whole area so someone doesn't get fragged, the wildlife is going to be made nuts in short order, and that means the Sierra Club, and the other duck squeezers will be up your ass in a hurry. This also assumes the local government isn't going to freak out over the assortment of risks associated.

If you've got an insanely huge forest fire, and need to create a firebreak on short notice, then they'll let people use explosives charges, or some other crazy thing. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/9/3-wildfires-spreading-in-central-washington-state/

Because in that circumstance, you're not destroying good wood, or creating a long term hazard. The whole region is gonna burn to the ground anyway.

 

[HuskStihl]

In rare circumstances, you can use explosives to "cut" the tree, like this one.

But in practical terms, there's no fracture plane like in rock, metal, brick, etc. So, you're pounding an amorphous material, full of water of course, lignin, other springy stuff, and that's gonna take LOTS of explosives. Unless you can use something for cutting, say a sheet of copper, or something else that will work as an explosive formed perpetrator to cut the material.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator

All of this requires planning, some idea what the density and composition of the material is is, and about 4-5 explosive techs messing around for maybe 3-4 hours, and each billing out at about $150-450 an hour. That's for one big tree like in the picture.

Smaller trees, say something under 14-16 inches, you can probably use a more or less standard I beam cut charge used for building demolition.

Smaller than 10 inches, you could probably just do about 5 loops of det cord, and call it good. But, all of em are most likely going to fall in a random direction unless you set up the cut planes, and delays, as if you were using an actual chainsaw. lol!

So how many saw monkeys can you hire for about $150 an hour, compared to a bunch of explosives techs? LOTS and LOTS!

Also the big problem of using explosives is, you generate loads of noise, you have to zone off a whole area so someone doesn't get fragged, the wildlife is going to be made nuts in short order, and that means the Sierra Club, and the other duck squeezers will be up your ass in a hurry. This also assumes the local government isn't going to freak out over the assortment of risks associated.

If you've got an insanely huge forest fire, and need to create a firebreak on short notice, then they'll let people use explosives charges, or some other crazy thing. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/9/3-wildfires-spreading-in-central-washington-state/

Because in that circumstance, you're not destroying good wood, or creating a long term hazard. The whole region is gonna burn to the ground anyway.

Holy crap. What a great poast! Thanks for the learnin'

 

[Michigan Escapee]

Of course, the specifics of the post, in case anyone thought there were any, are complete wild assed guesses.
There are REALLY REALLY good reasons why certified explosives techs get paid a shitload of money, and an incredible amount of bean counting, planning, and ass covering goes into a successful run.

When dealing with weapons systems for the military, that's a whole different ballpark. 60% of your cluster munitions don't go off, and create a hazard for 60-70 years, oh well.... A mining engineer who did something like that, they'd seal his ass up in a tunnel and forget him. lol!

 

[Gologit]

I've seen explosives used to take down snags. It wasn't terribly complicated. Holes were drilled around the base of the tree then stuffed with ANFO and a small booster and an electric cap. The holes were sealed, everybody got way waaaaay back, and the blaster set it off. We blew a half dozen snags that way on a burn salvage. No muss, no fuss, it only took a morning to do and there were good results.

 

[northmanlogging]

In rare circumstances, you can use explosives to "cut" the tree, like this one.

But in practical terms, there's no fracture plane like in rock, metal, brick, etc. So, you're pounding an amorphous material, full of water of course, lignin, other springy stuff, and that's gonna take LOTS of explosives. Unless you can use something for cutting, say a sheet of copper, or something else that will work as an explosive formed perpetrator to cut the material.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator

All of this requires planning, some idea what the density and composition of the material is is, and about 4-5 explosive techs messing around for maybe 3-4 hours, and each billing out at about $150-450 an hour. That's for one big tree like in the picture.

Smaller trees, say something under 14-16 inches, you can probably use a more or less standard I beam cut charge used for building demolition.

Smaller than 10 inches, you could probably just do about 5 loops of det cord, and call it good. But, all of em are most likely going to fall in a random direction unless you set up the cut planes, and delays, as if you were using an actual chainsaw. lol!

So how many saw monkeys can you hire for about $150 an hour, compared to a bunch of explosives techs? LOTS and LOTS!

Also the big problem of using explosives is, you generate loads of noise, you have to zone off a whole area so someone doesn't get fragged, the wildlife is going to be made nuts in short order, and that means the Sierra Club, and the other duck squeezers will be up your ass in a hurry. This also assumes the local government isn't going to freak out over the assortment of risks associated.

If you've got an insanely huge forest fire, and need to create a firebreak on short notice, then they'll let people use explosives charges, or some other crazy thing. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/9/3-wildfires-spreading-in-central-washington-state/

Because in that circumstance, you're not destroying good wood, or creating a long term hazard. The whole region is gonna burn to the ground anyway.

big long post like that and the best thing about it is duck sqeezer... gonna have to stael that one...

 

[Michigan Escapee]

lol! Too late!

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/duck-squeezer

The term was in a Neil Stephenson book called "Zodiac"

 

[bitzer]

I've seen explosives used to take down snags. It wasn't terribly complicated. Holes were drilled around the base of the tree then stuffed with ANFO and a small booster and an electric cap. The holes were sealed, everybody got way waaaaay back, and the blaster set it off. We blew a half dozen snags that way on a burn salvage. No muss, no fuss, it only took a morning to do and there were good results.

That's what I thought...

 

[bitzer]

In rare circumstances, you can use explosives to "cut" the tree, like this one.

But in practical terms, there's no fracture plane like in rock, metal, brick, etc. So, you're pounding an amorphous material, full of water of course, lignin, other springy stuff, and that's gonna take LOTS of explosives. Unless you can use something for cutting, say a sheet of copper, or something else that will work as an explosive formed perpetrator to cut the material.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator

All of this requires planning, some idea what the density and composition of the material is is, and about 4-5 explosive techs messing around for maybe 3-4 hours, and each billing out at about $150-450 an hour. That's for one big tree like in the picture.

Smaller trees, say something under 14-16 inches, you can probably use a more or less standard I beam cut charge used for building demolition.

Smaller than 10 inches, you could probably just do about 5 loops of det cord, and call it good. But, all of em are most likely going to fall in a random direction unless you set up the cut planes, and delays, as if you were using an actual chainsaw. lol!

So how many saw monkeys can you hire for about $150 an hour, compared to a bunch of explosives techs? LOTS and LOTS!

Also the big problem of using explosives is, you generate loads of noise, you have to zone off a whole area so someone doesn't get fragged, the wildlife is going to be made nuts in short order, and that means the Sierra Club, and the other duck squeezers will be up your ass in a hurry. This also assumes the local government isn't going to freak out over the assortment of risks associated.

If you've got an insanely huge forest fire, and need to create a firebreak on short notice, then they'll let people use explosives charges, or some other crazy thing. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/9/3-wildfires-spreading-in-central-washington-state/

Because in that circumstance, you're not destroying good wood, or creating a long term hazard. The whole region is gonna burn to the ground anyway.

Thanks for the explanation. What ever happened to the good ole days?

 

[Westboastfaller]

Here is some video of "Dazy" Bullbucking with Western Forest Products (WFP)
He now is with Interfor.
I had a pretty lengthy conversation with him about all of it in June in camp as well doing a course with him. He has been pushing for more availability to the jobs and getting all fallers ticketed. He feels fallers would be a better fit to deal with the problem. Its just a two day course. Any other blasting ticket has been made difficult to get. About 8 yrs ago things changed. He would like to see the material available for every Falling contract. About three and a half weeks ago I extended my shift an extra 2 weeks and flew out from the Interfor camp with Dazie and a Interfor QC. Ironically the Faller that was shifting out from were I was going was the Faller I speak of in my OP. Weather was bad so we all ended up going back to the camp he came from for the night (my destination) He went to his daughter grad and 4 days back and only his second day of the shift. A punky top section of a Balsam toppled back after it sat back on his saw and attempted to wedge it over. Branches from green trees likely impeded his vision.





C

 

[madhatte]

View attachment 514287

DAAAAAAAAAANG

 

[Westboastfaller]

DAAAAAAAAAANG

That thing was a pipe.
I had some pretty good White wood (Hemlock) walk logs down the draw to get up and down but that was a nice walk log. So strong that Spruce.
A faller was talking about some native land that they want to log and there is claims of Spruce as big as 23' Dia.
He said sounds too much like work to him. Maybe for some young guy that likes a challenge.lol That's huge wood

 

[Bwildered]

Here is some video of "Dazy" Bullbucking with Western Forest Products (WFP)
He now is with Interfor.
I had a pretty lengthy conversation with him about all of it in June in camp as well doing a course with him. He has been pushing for more availability to the jobs and getting all fallers ticketed. He feels fallers would be a better fit to deal with the problem. Its just a two day course. Any other blasting ticket has been made difficult to get. About 8 yrs ago things changed. He would like to see the material available for every Falling contract. About three and a half weeks ago I extended my shift an extra 2 weeks and flew out from the Interfor camp with Dazie and a Interfor QC. Ironically the Faller that was shifting out from were I was going was the Faller I speak of in my OP. Weather was bad so we all ended up going back to the camp he came from for the night (my destination) He went to his daughter grad and 4 days back and only his second day of the shift. A punky top section of a Balsam toppled back after it sat back on his saw and attempted to wedge it over. Branches from green trees likely impeded his vision.





C

I'd imagine you only get one go at blowing trees down, so they'd be overloading them a tad so they don't have to go in & have another try! What a cream job! After 9/11 it cost if I remember correctly $600 to keep our shotfirers tickets here, so mines expired sitting in the drawer
Chachinski

 

[Woos31]

My status today based on my last tree? Not good really. Ran out of gas a long way from my cash as it was mostly flat ground oddly enough. I was running the boundary opening up to make room for two Fallers after I left.
Just then my Bullbucker said it was time for me to go and he was comming in to check my work. Then he asked me about the story of the snags that I was comming up to. I didn't have a story (a plan for them) because I didn't go to them and assess them and mark them with an axe for proof. So I said.. "let's talk about my ribbond saftey trail you walked up to get here.. isn't it nice? Then I said he has to start with a complaint then the $hit in the middle, then end on a positive note. I think I had him smiling then he said. "Let's go..you two have to get the plane.
Then I said ok but I have to go WAY up there and down there and finish Falling a tree!
So he called me on one of the "6 deadly sins" leaving a cut up tree. We are supposed to check gas before hand. Busted! Just about got half way and had to go back for my axe as I remembered it may have needed a wedge (no I wasn't going to try a soft Dutchmen against the lean either!) Tree went ever so nicely and I packed out.

My status today based on my last tree? Not good really. Ran out of gas a long way from my cash as it was mostly flat ground oddly enough. I was running the boundary opening up to make room for two Fallers after I left.
Just then my Bullbucker said it was time for me to go and he was comming in to check my work. Then he asked me about the story of the snags that I was comming up to. I didn't have a story (a plan for them) because I didn't go to them and assess them and mark them with an axe for proof. So I said.. "let's talk about my ribbond saftey trail you walked up to get here.. isn't it nice? Then I said he has to start with a complaint then the $hit in the middle, then end on a positive note. I think I had him smiling then he said. "Let's go..you two have to get the plane.
Then I said ok but I have to go WAY up there and down there and finish Falling a tree!
So he called me on one of the "6 deadly sins" leaving a cut up tree. We are supposed to check gas before hand. Busted! Just about got half way and had to go back for my axe as I remembered it may have needed a wedge (no I wasn't going to try a soft Dutchmen against the lean either!) Tree went ever so nicely and I packed out.

Well pard at least your thinkin about the big picture and talkin with us knuckleheads regarding everything. That's a big part of it pard is seeing your own actions and knowing it's time to get our self focused more cuz I'm on the list most the time too. Last tree I fell was a hazard tree, forked top with on forked broke out in a wind storm, and 20 ft crack down the stem. The remaining top was on the back side of lean I just knew that if I sent it to the lean that sucker would fold over and break out when it started to go. Ended up pulling it around so the top was pushing back against the crack instead of pulling. Moral of it is I too had to leave the tree in the back cut and get a wedge from the pickup as said tree was hangin out toward one of our roads and I found the tree while cleaning up storm damage. With that said my last tree obviously ended well but I left myself open to opportunity at the same time, so I'd consider my last tree wasn't a good one. Also Jamie I'd like to say Thank you for starting this thread because it makes you think and in depth about our own actions. Whether a guy replies in this thread or not, when reading through they are thinking about it and that's the whole point of it...........switch the brain to 'ON' and look around. Thanks again pard and safe cuttin

 

[Westboastfaller]

I'd imagine you only get one go at blowing trees down, so they'd be overloading them a tad so they don't have to go in & have another try! What a cream job! After 9/11 it cost if I remember correctly $600 to keep our shotfirers tickets here, so mines expired sitting in the drawer
Chachinski

Yes, It gets done right the first time. There is a couple methods. Root blast or trunk blast, as well a partial cut up in conjunction with...
I don't think anyone only blast trees for a living And it can be pretty tough getting around. Sometimes the Faller dosen't cut the low side up enough on big cedar snags and uses bullet tree's to finish it off. If it isn't cut up right then its not going to go over. So the blaster can come into a mess with branches from other tree's hanging above.
Hopefully the Faller will clean his mess up so they can get in and out.

I knew a blaster that got interagated pretty good flying in the states because they found material on his lap top keyboard.
Just a 7 hour delay...lol

So that's why I see those guys cutting the same wood over again. No they dont look like fun. An unpredictable pain in the ass. Can't you guys blow some of those up? I mean theres no value in them when they slab out like that right? Or is that not practical?

Cedar Slabs are good, usually have to be 10"x 10" or 12"X12" and 12.5 ft (3.8 metre) to fly them. Probably 6" on conventional logging.
Most will look like this one below, wet and dark red. You just count the inches in the collar of the light coloured Cedar. You don't end up looking at most of them like this. Although many may have a very strong shell.
This one has a story that I'll share later. There is just so many big cedar snags in areas. You have to learn to do most of them and most importantly
know when to call for qualified assistant. A second set of eyes is always best. They my grab your saw and do it pretty easy in a way you didn't see. That's a good way to get the experience and prospective. The other partner on the other side had a 40 year coast vet faller come over twice and look at trees in just a few days. The other guy has 25 yrs on the coast.
I asked the Vet if they were going to blast it and he said he hadn't decided yet. Said he may get it with a 42" and has done worse but realized the more he's been around them the more he knows now he shouldn't have touched a lot of them.

 

[madhatte]

I say again: DAAAAAAAAAAAANG. Big wood is one thing -- big snags are a whole 'nother ball of wax!

 

[Skeans]

I say again: DAAAAAAAAAAAANG. Big wood is one thing -- big snags are a whole 'nother ball of wax!

Makes you wish we could still blast down here as easy as they can up there don't it?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[Westboastfaller]

Well pard at least your thinkin about the big picture and talkin with us knuckleheads regarding everything. That's a big part of it pard is seeing your own actions and knowing it's time to get our self focused more cuz I'm on the list most the time too. Last tree I fell was a hazard tree, forked top with on forked broke out in a wind storm, and 20 ft crack down the stem. The remaining top was on the back side of lean I just knew that if I sent it to the lean that sucker would fold over and break out when it started to go. Ended up pulling it around so the top was pushing back against the crack instead of pulling. Moral of it is I too had to leave the tree in the back cut and get a wedge from the pickup as said tree was hangin out toward one of our roads and I found the tree while cleaning up storm damage. With that said my last tree obviously ended well but I left myself open to opportunity at the same time, so I'd consider my last tree wasn't a good one. Also Jamie I'd like to say Thank you for starting this thread because it makes you think and in depth about our own actions. Whether a guy replies in this thread or not, when reading through they are thinking about it and that's the whole point of it...........switch the brain to 'ON' and look around. Thanks again pard and safe cuttin

^^^this
Well my friend, you nailed it on all accounts. Cool! You can really write..lol yeah what he said!. I guess that chit is on my mind, being mindful at least on the job. We are creatures of habit. Why not let them be good ones. Thats pretty easy but it's more than going through the motions of good habits. Complacency with good habits still equals complacency. As you say; "switch you brain to on and look around" you only have to be wrong once. No pressure or Nothing

 

[madhatte]

Makes you wish we could still blast down here as easy as they can up there don't it?

Just today, even. Little stuff in tight spaces is a pain in the ass, and I'd have loved to level it all, glass-parking-lot style. Took every trick I know to get a few on the ground and still left one hanging for tomorrow. Training noobs is probably the toughest thing I do.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I say again: DAAAAAAAAAAAANG. Big wood is one thing -- big snags are a whole 'nother ball of wax!

isn't that a fact! I know guys broke in and never cut a green tree for a year. Just learned how to get good at the ugly ones.

 

[Woos31]

^^^this
Well my friend, you nailed it on all accounts. Cool! You can really write..lol yeah what he said!. I guess that chit is on my mind, being mindful at least on the job. We are creatures of habit. Why not let them be good ones. Thats pretty easy but it's more than going through the motions of good habits. Complacency with good habits still equals complacency. As you say; "switch you brain to on and look around" you only have to be wrong once. No pressure or Nothing

Yes sir, I'm as bad as the next fella about doing it the same and even though it goes okay each scenario is different. Until our complacency catches up with us and things are gettin a bit sideways does our brain engage to on, then the oh **** starts creeping in and things worked out obviously as we're here bullshitting about it. Keep up the input here guys, whether we agree or not this is good for us all, safe cuttin men