Doing the right thing(sqreanbean you got me thinking)

[NCTREE]

I was reading sqreanbeans thread about doing the right thing and it got me thinking about a situation that happen to me yesterday. I recently did some work for a good customer of mine. One thing was removing a blue spruce that I had been pruning to keep it small from incrotching(SP) on the neighbors property. The neighbors of my customer are the nosey, bitter don't get along with neighbors type. I removed this spruce because my customer felt bad that the neighbor was complaining about it. Let me tell you that it really wasnt incroching very much at all. Just to step back a little when I pruned it last the neighbor came out and wanted me to cut it down while I was pruning it. Obviously I declined and said I was pruning it. So anyways I removed it last week on the wishes of my customer and all is done. Well the hurrincane came and uprooted a walnut in my customer back yard. When it fell it fell into the neighbors walnut and uprooted that one in the process. This was right on the property line. Both trees fell so that they landed in their own property. When I came back to clean up I cleaned up my customers tree and thats it. Well later that evening my customer called and said the neighbor wanted to know why I didnt clean up there tree. She is such a nice lady and i think too nice to the point where she lets people take advantage of her. I told her that the tree wasn't her responsibility and she shouldn't have to pay for it. I also said the reason I didn't clean it up was that i didn't have permission from the HO to trespass and clean it up. I didn't want to get sued. I said that if they want it cleaned up then they should call me and pay for it themself. So in sence I was sticking up for my customer and giving her a voice to stand up to these bad neighbors.

My question is did I go about this right?

 

[PinnaclePete]

You're acting as an advocate for your customer, no problem there.

Of course, if its a nice walnut log...

 

[hanniedog]

You are in the right, not your job to clean up the neighbors mess.

 

[ctrees4$]

In Tennessee a healthy tree blown onto the neighbors property becomes their responsibility to clean it up.It is considered an act of god and the original owner is not responsible.In most cases the original owner of the tree will at least cover the expense of their on tree.

 

[tree md]

You absolutely were in the right. I have run into a lot of those situations doing storm work and have learned to make it clear that I am only bidding the damage on the clients property. If they want the neighboring property cleared then it goes on a different work order for that specific address and will be an additional charge. It doesn't matter to me who pays for it but someone will be signing off on that work order before I proceed with the job.

 

[Vendetti]

I'd go tell the neighbor to pound sand. I do not work for people like that.:mad2:

 

[treeseer]

I was reading sqreanbeans thread about doing the right thing and it got me thinking about a situation that happen to me yesterday. I recently did some work for a good customer of mine. One thing was removing a blue spruce that I had been pruning to keep it small from incrotching(SP) on the neighbors property. The neighbors of my customer are the nosey, bitter don't get along with neighbors type. I removed this spruce because my customer felt bad that the neighbor was complaining about it. Let me tell you that it really wasnt incroching very much at all. Just to step back a little when I pruned it last the neighbor came out and wanted me to cut it down while I was pruning it. Obviously I declined and said I was pruning it. So anyways I removed it last week on the wishes of my customer and all is done. Well the hurrincane came and uprooted a walnut in my customer back yard. When it fell it fell into the neighbors walnut and uprooted that one in the process. This was right on the property line. Both trees fell so that they landed in their own property. When I came back to clean up I cleaned up my customers tree and thats it. Well later that evening my customer called and said the neighbor wanted to know why I didnt clean up there tree. She is such a nice lady and i think too nice to the point where she lets people take advantage of her. I told her that the tree wasn't her responsibility and she shouldn't have to pay for it. I also said the reason I didn't clean it up was that i didn't have permission from the HO to trespass and clean it up. I didn't want to get sued. I said that if they want it cleaned up then they should call me and pay for it themself. So in sence I was sticking up for my customer and giving her a voice to stand up to these bad neighbors.

My question is did I go about this right?

Tha t depends--did any part of either tree strike a structure, such as a fence or a sandbox? Did a walnut hit a roof and scratch a shingle? Hurricxane damage is often covered with no deductible. Help your client documetn damage and get a claim going. Include the neighbor so you can profit from their coverage.

Did the gravy train just pass you by?

That, or grab some walnuts and shove em down their yaps next time they start beyotchin. :mad2:

 

[outofmytree]

Your question is actually two questions which are:

1. Did I do the morally right thing? Yes you did. It is our job to look after our clients first and foremost.

2. Did I do the legally right thing. In WA the answer would still be yes. That of course may vary from place to place.

It is sound business to smile and nod to every potential customer but boy there some you would like to slap instead.....

 

[DangerTree]

I think you did the right thing with one exception. Just because the neighbor is a ho doesn't mean the monies no good. I would have said I can do the work for you while I'm here but you will have to pay for it as it is on your property.

You don't have to be friends you just have to take the money!

 

[arbor pro]

I'm always getting calls from folks who want their neightbor's tree that is hanging over onto their property pruned. Although not the owner of the tree, these folks are usually more than happy to pay for the pruning of the tree themselves so they seem surprised when I tell them I won't do the work unless I have permission from the legal owner of the tree. My reasoning is that, whether legal or not to prune the portion of the tree on their property, that is not my concern. My concern is that I don't want the legal owner POd at me and badmouthing me and dragging me into court over a $300 prune job that is now going to cost me a day in court to defend. Whether in the right or not, I don't get into the middle of neighbor disputes as I can't afford to get drug into legal battles unless I'm compensated for it.

Morally and ethically, if I believe a customer has the legal right to do (or not to do) something, I will try to encourage the customer to speak with their neighbor and come to an agreement on what is to be done and who will pay for the work. If the neighbor's don't get along for whatever reason (I usually only hear one side of the story), I don't get involved. I can't from a legal perspective.

So, my response to this thread is that, as an ethical and moral person, you should always try to encourage your customer to work things out with the neighbor and be willing to assist in the communication between the two. However, if that communication hits a brick wall, you do what the law tells you to do and, if you're not comfortable with the situation, you do what you have to do which, in some cases means walk away and let the homeowners and their lawyers work it out. From an economic viewpoint, no tree job is worth getting sued over - even if you 'morally and ethically' think you're doing the right thing.

In the situation presented by nctree, he did the right thing by cleaning up his customer's tree as requested by the customer and leaving the neighbor's tree as the two neighbor's had not come to an agreement about who would pay for the work. If they can't come to a civilized agreement, you walk away and let the lawyers work it out. come back when they have an agreement from the lawyers in writing.

Remember, the law is the law and you're just the hired saw...

AP

 

[Bigus Termitius]

I think you fared well. I try and steer clear of such people when possible, and create win-win situations when not.

I agree with AP's points, it's a safe approach, but I can see where that has the potential to cost you more business than the occasional day in court would and aggravate all parties involved in the process. It has to be pretty messy before I won't get involved. Some of it just has to be chalked up to the price of doing business.

The only problem I see with getting permission from the neighbor is that it has the potential to spread misinterpretation of the law. I certainly would want to have it, if it can be had, but I'd make a note of the there being no requirement by law, and have it in writing, just so there are no misunderstandings.

Not to be too critical, just some thoughts.

 

[arbor pro]

I think you fared well. I try and steer clear of such people when possible, and create win-win situations when not.

I agree with AP's points, it's a safe approach, but I can see where that has the potential to cost you more business than the occasional day in court would and aggravate all parties involved in the process. It has to be pretty messy before I won't get involved. Some of it just has to be chalked up to the price of doing business.

The only problem I see with getting permission from the neighbor is that it has the potential to spread misinterpretation of the law. I certainly would want to have it, if it can be had, but I'd make a note of the there being no requirement by law, and have it in writing, just so there are no misunderstandings.

Not to be too critical, just some thoughts.

Case in point - just last week a lady asked me to prune the neighbor's tree branches off of her side of the yard as they were getting close to the house (but not yet touching). I responded, "I understand you're entitled by law to prune the tree but that would meen leaving stubs on the neighbor's side of the fence (no other laterals to prune back to so have to go to the main stem)."

She responded, "I dont' care about their side. They don't care about my side so why should I care about their side?"

I could sense that there was tension so I explained that I have to consider how all parties will react to the work I do - not just the client. If the neighbor would be unhappy with the work I perform on his tree, I think that is important enough to require his consent regardless of what the law says. If I PO him and he goes and tells all his friends that I wrecked his tree without his permisssion, that will cost me money and damage my reputation. Whereas, if the client asking me to prune her neighbor's tree is unhappy with me for passing on the work because I feel it is unethical to perform the work without the tree owner's consent, then at least the worst she can say about me is that I was trying to not offend her neighbor.

Losing work and a potential client is not ideal but it's a better result than being smeared as "the hack that butchered my tree without my permission". Call it safe - perhaps it is but it's also business and I'm a businessman. I'm not afraid to tell my clients that I can't afford to get wrapped up in a lawsuit over a $300 pruning job. Most of them understand - some don't. Oh well...

AP

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Case in point - just last week a lady asked me to prune the neighbor's tree branches off of her side of the yard as they were getting close to the house (but not yet touching). I responded, "I understand you're entitled by law to prune the tree but that would meen leaving stubs on the neighbor's side of the fence (no other laterals to prune back to so have to go to the main stem)."

She responded, "I dont' care about their side. They don't care about my side so why should I care about their side?"

I could sense that there was tension so I explained that I have to consider how all parties will react to the work I do - not just the client. If the neighbor would be unhappy with the work I perform on his tree, I think that is important enough to require his consent regardless of what the law says. If I PO him and he goes and tells all his friends that I wrecked his tree without his permisssion, that will cost me money and damage my reputation. Whereas, if the client asking me to prune her neighbor's tree is unhappy with me for passing on the work because I feel it is unethical to perform the work without the tree owner's consent, then at least the worst she can say about me is that I was trying to not offend her neighbor.

Losing work and a potential client is not ideal but it's a better result than being smeared as "the hack that butchered my tree without my permission". Call it safe - perhaps it is but it's also business and I'm a businessman. I'm not afraid to tell my clients that I can't afford to get wrapped up in a lawsuit over a $300 pruning job. Most of them understand - some don't. Oh well...

AP

It's safe, but that's not a negative thing. I agree with your approach in many situations, especially in such a case that you've nothing to prune back to but the main where the main is clearly in the neighbor’s yard. I know from clearance work, you can't keep everyone happy, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t try. Thankfully that's a finished chapter for the most part, however some of the same principles with regards to tree conflicts transfer. I'll do my best to communicate and resolve issues, I maintain a high success rate, I can usually talk someone into it being their idea, but every so often you have someone that's impossible. It's a judgment call, but more often than not the problem child's a tard that nobody is going to listening to, and the ones that will I could care less about. (Birds of a feather….) If my competition gets flooded with them I consider that a manifold blessing. I'll win the ones I want, and let their good news travel.

I guess when it comes down to it, I'm not afraid to tork someone off if their tree is causing others damage or is partially high risk and they are being unreasonable. Often times the tree(s) in question are simply neglected anyway. (I po folks with reasonable bids all the time…can’t win em all. )

For example, this summer I had a silver maple that was reaching over and rubbing the peak of my clients roof when leafed out. The same tree is causing some damage to the tree owner's roof. My landlord knows them and asked if they would like us to prune it back. The answer was no. So we proceeded with the work to alleviate the situation. The tree owner came home and got into it with my landlord, by the time I was coming down, he stormed off. Later he apologized, that was nice, but I could care less either way. I'm not interested in balking on a substantial segment of available work from reasonable people for the ignorance of a few bad eggs.

Now then, on the other hand, if I find myself in the crossfire of a peeing contest of substantial or otherwise influential individuals with plenty of means to their own ends, I’ll gladly wait it out, especially if it’s a trivial matter where a perfectly sound tree is making a “mess” and the potential client wants me to wall it with the property line. In that case, I’m not afraid to tork them off either. Maybe that’s a case where the tard has called me first.

It’s really a case by case issue, and your posts have given me some ideas for future conflicts, thank you, I’m just exploring the other side of the coin. I’m just saying that I tend to consider the law to be an equal parameter to anyone’s feelings. In other words, it may be the neighbor’s tree, but it doesn’t give him the right to be a thorn in his neighbor’s side with a fixed menace of aerial assault. Often times their feelings are based on ignorance and shouldn’t always be the highest calling for consideration. I’ll address it with the best interest of the tree and client’s property in mind and let the chips fall where they may.

I’ll take a reputation of being reasonable, yet willing to deal with the hard cases as I see fit, even if it means someone gets upset. Sue me..lol.

 

[FanOFatherNash]

I'd go tell the neighbor to pound sand. I do not work for people like that.:mad2:

unless the pay is really really good.

 

[sgreanbeans]

I run into this a lot myself. I usually talk to all parties involved, if there is a conflict. I tell them to call me when it is resolved. When it is. I get them all to sign the line, that way I can show proof that I was authorized. Many times people have changed their mind when I am halfway thru the job or I get the age old "since I let you do this, you need to do this"
Sometimes tho, it blindsides you. You think all is well and they come out, guns a blazin. Seems that some people complain, just to complain.
You did it right, when dealing with people like that, I try to "kill them with kindness" When they insist on being Arseholes. I make sure that I do not step one foot onto their property, making it obvious that I am going out of my way to not clean ANYTHING in their yard. Every once and a while, they come around and say ok, ill pay ya to do it. I still say no, they have already exposed their true nature and I don't want any part of it