Face cuts.

[Sprig]

So you just cut till your saw pinches then push the chunk over? Like spidey said, having that chunk rip over and tear down onto my lanyard worries me a bit. For me, snap cuts on little stuff or crane jobs, otherwise everything gets notched and back cut. After doing it a few thousand times and with a sharp chain-it doesn't take that much longer.
Do you use this method if your dropping a chunk onto a false crotch?

Thank you, good post, 'snap cut' was a term I was searching for this afternoon but had long ago brain-farted (jTinaTree too ty),
A fine post too RB! I know its hard to explain the intricacies of it all but I understand better now why and when this technique is used, wedges make total sense too. Obviously for the weathered experienced folk and, as someone above said, not a blanket generality type thing.

 

[gitrdun_climbr]

bad advice on big stuff youknowwho

That 'skin' left with this technique takes control of the piece, often ripping into your lanyard or hinging the chunk back into the spar before it uncontrollably rips loose and falls wherever...often we need to be able to shove the chunk cleanly into a small space on the ground to avoid targets or big out of control blocks. On 2-3 foot long blocks I usually form snap cut, hang saw, break chunk and shove it where I need it. If diameter isn't too big I may cut all the way through and with very low rpms cut straight through the skin, hang saw one-handed while 'checking' block with the other, then shove. Bigger than 4 feet or so and it's a hinge. As RB mentioned, depending on diameter, lean, orientation a tag line or wedges may come into play as well...but much of this equation is diameter dependant.

We work in some pretty big wood in this region youknowwho, I'm not sure what you're using as a reference point. And yes, lol, we have 140' Hemlock up here believe it or not!

 

[Ekka]

You either cut right thru the whole block or snap cut or scarf.... having blocks tear down the bark etc that's a bit dodgy.

Don't do that with a queen palm, especially if your knocking the head out, you'll be wearing that on your lanyard.

Like Spydie said, "I know one guy who did that and had a back flipper take out a veranda pole. was an ole rotten pole but still embarassing.

 

[maxburton]

If the wood is small enough you can get away with it. With larger wood I'll not only cut a notch out, but bore a cut to the hinge before cutting away the trigger wood. That way there's no chance of the stem splitting AND KILLING YOU.

 

[treemendous]

no face when blocking down.
I assume you mean firewood or double firewood size?
I never face cut those size blocks. Using a 365 i'll cut until it just starts to settle, then pull the saw out and back chain from the uncut side. Usually about less than 1" of wood and then its done. I've had the chain bind a few times but just be careful. Then I slide the pieces or lift them off.

I don't do a lot of hardwood here, almost all conifers, nice and straight. Wouldn't work on big lean maples etc.

 

[youknowwho]

What i ment was only on smaller blocks diameter wise, and about a couple of feet long. Just forget i ever said it. I did not mean to ruin every bodys day with a simple thread. I might leave this site now. Cause once again i dont know ????.

 

[livewire]

What i ment was only on smaller blocks diameter wise, and about a couple of feet long. Just forget i ever said it. I did not mean to ruin every bodys day with a simple thread. I might leave this site now. Cause once again i dont know ????.

From what I've read here no one is trying to bust your b@lls! You can't be that sensitive. People here are trying to correct your method based on info you gave.

Don't be so sensitive. We all get our P-P slapped from time to time. You have the ability to either disagree in silence and let the thread die or keep :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

BTW, check out some of RB's other shots.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=42494

 

[youknowwho]

Sensitive, livewire, man, I post on here cause i have alot of experience OKAY
ALOT. When people don't bother to even imagine an idea, not even for a second, that insults me, and it insults my idea of what this site is about. I dont understand the logic that some members have when they beat down my idea or metheod.

 

[Sprig]

Sensitive, livewire, man, I post on here cause i have alot of experience OKAY
ALOT. When people don't bother to even imagine an idea, not even for a second, that insults me, and it insults my idea of what this site is about. I dont understand the logic that some members have when they beat down my idea or metheod.

Wow.
So what was your idea again? What insult? Who didn't give it a second of thought? My origional post here was because I did give it some thought and as it was loosely put with such a lack of perameters or defining terms (ergo blanket comments) as to give pause. And as it turns out, once things were better understood, others use similar techniques when warranted as explained by several different climbers here, and their experience speaks volumes. Some just don't do it either, to each their own. There is/was nothing really 'new' or innovative brought to the table here as far as I can see. I had a talk with one of my climbing buds yesterday and asked him about his methods and he pretty much repeated what RB said verbatum, as well as expressing concerns about stuff hitting his lines, control, and so forth.
Your origional post seems to be based on your observations of others working methods, not yours from what I understand, so in hindsight it may have been better put as a question rather than some sort of statement ie. 'How many of you do this and when and why?'. I went back through this thread trying to figure out why the defensive snit (beat down? Gah!) but couldn't find much of anything to justify getting ones nose outta joint. I did, though, find some very good posts on what some do do, and why, from experienced people in the biz who like to stay in one piece and that has added to my own personal knowlege base which, for whatever its worth, is why I hang around here.
Sheesh! umpkin2: umpkin2:



Serge

 

[livewire]

Wow.
So what was your idea again? What insult? Who didn't give it a second of thought? My origional post here was because I did give it some thought and as it was loosely put with such a lack of perameters or defining terms (ergo blanket comments) as to give pause. And as it turns out, once things were better understood, others use similar techniques when warranted as explained by several different climbers here, and their experience speaks volumes. Some just don't do it either, to each their own. There is/was nothing really 'new' or innovative brought to the table here as far as I can see. I had a talk with one of my climbing buds yesterday and asked him about his methods and he pretty much repeated what RB said verbatum, as well as expressing concerns about stuff hitting his lines, control, and so forth.
Your origional post seems to be based on your observations of others working methods, not yours from what I understand, so in hindsight it may have been better put as a question rather than some sort of statement ie. 'How many of you do this and when and why?'. I went back through this thread trying to figure out why the defensive snit (beat down? Gah!) but couldn't find much of anything to justify getting ones nose outta joint. I did, though, find some very good posts on what some do do, and why, from experienced people in the biz who like to stay in one piece and that has added to my own personal knowlege base which, for whatever its worth, is why I hang around here.
Sheesh! umpkin2: umpkin2:



Serge

I concur! I could not have stated it any better!

***Note*** Livewire is yeilding to Sprigs knowledge and complimenting him for a brilliant post***End note***

 

[SilentElk]

I have done this a bit but more when blocking off short stuff 16" to 36" pieces for firwoodand less than 18" dia.

Now for cutting large stuff, where direction matter you better make sure which direction it is going to go.

 

[treebogan]

Heres when it did go wrong

Here is a true account of how not face cutting a heavy (not long) peice nearly got a guy killed.
A climber in a company I worked for was removing a tripple stemmed Spruce,he had stripped all three stems and blocked down the two outside stems.When he had removed his rope from the middle (remaining stem) he blocked this down to the main stem where three stems were joined,this was about forty feet up.Now standing with the flip line around the bottom of this large and heavy junction he cut through the stem untill it pinched his saw,now it started to go badly wrong.In his struggle trying to tip this block off the stem I think he finally started to rotate the peice as he couldn't tip it off,when it did fall his flip line was so close to the top of the stem after he had stood up to try and gain more leverage he followed the peice to the ground,his head missing a stump by less than a foot.He lived but won't climb again.He could have left the peice longer,put a rope on it,face cut it and had his groundies simply tip the chunk off.That would have been my tech in the same circumstances.I hope this helps

 

[windthrown]

A few feet or a whole tree...

Seem to be the same to me. Face cut 'em all. You are still dealing with hundreds of pounds of wood that need to be controlled. One more small cut for a notch is all it takes to control the direction of the fall (or at least try to control it). OK, if it is a less than 8 inch diameter tree base or block cut, OK, but any larger and you have a lot of dead weight that wants to come down with the force of gravity accelerating it all the way.

As the last guy that posted here noted when blocking in a tree higher up, things can go very wrong with a less-controlled straight cut.

 

[JTinaTree]

Here is a true account of how not face cutting a heavy (not long) peice nearly got a guy killed.
A climber in a company I worked for was removing a tripple stemmed Spruce,he had stripped all three stems and blocked down the two outside stems.When he had removed his rope from the middle (remaining stem) he blocked this down to the main stem where three stems were joined,this was about forty feet up.Now standing with the flip line around the bottom of this large and heavy junction he cut through the stem untill it pinched his saw,now it started to go badly wrong.In his struggle trying to tip this block off the stem I think he finally started to rotate the peice as he couldn't tip it off,when it did fall his flip line was so close to the top of the stem after he had stood up to try and gain more leverage he followed the peice to the ground,his head missing a stump by less than a foot.He lived but won't climb again.He could have left the peice longer,put a rope on it,face cut it and had his groundies simply tip the chunk off.That would have been my tech in the same circumstances.I hope this helps

That's a shame that happened to that guy. It could have been avoided though if he used a second tie in/lifeline. You never can be too carefull in this occupation....

 

[Lonnie]

I my selfhada run in with blocking down a beechand not notching one of my cuts....The chain on my saw got ahold of the block and spinned it like crazy dang near layed me out....So now i notch which and every peice i cut.. Better safer then sorry..

 

[ArborCore]

Seem to be the same to me. Face cut 'em all. You are still dealing with hundreds of pounds of wood that need to be controlled. One more small cut for a notch is all it takes to control the direction of the fall (or at least try to control it). OK, if it is a less than 8 inch diameter tree base or block cut, OK, but any larger and you have a lot of dead weight that wants to come down with the force of gravity accelerating it all the way.

As the last guy that posted here noted when blocking in a tree higher up, things can go very wrong with a less-controlled straight cut.

We as climbers defy the weakest form of power in the universe "gravity." Yet this 'weak' power is MORE than enough to kill any one of us in an instant. I say take precautions, and when you're done with that take a few more. The faster you are at taking EVERY possible precaution and doing it as FAST as possible the more effective and profitable climber/business you will have.

MAKE NO MISTAKE.... otherwise you may die... OR wish you had...

 

[youknowwho]

What i suggested is not nessecarly the best idea nor is it about speed,
its and effort to get one to think outside the box, and what we have been taught is nesecary, isnt always, go ahead and notch'em all. Please do what is the safest. For you.

 

[Bermie]

This isn't about thinking outside the box, you're asking us to think about doing something, that if it goes wrong has the potential to seriously scare, maim or kill us.
When making new suggestions or suggesting alternate tracks of thought, the end product should be an increase in efficiency +/or speed COMBINED with safety and control.
But all discussion is good, this is highlighting the majority's concerns with going home at the end of the day with all fingers, toes, appendages attached and unbroken, all our blood INSIDE our bodies and a desire to come back to work the next day.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

don't try this at home!!!!!!!!!

I worked with a guy who would cut through as far as he could untill the bar started to pinch, then he would grab the top of the piece and rock it back towards himself (while one handing the saw) and power the saw through. It worked for him on smaller manageable pieces. I would never do it myself but he made it work. This guy also never wore a hard hat or any ppe, spiked trims, used his climbing line to pull butts over, you get the picture.

I am much more comfortable making a front cut first, be it a full notch or a simple snap cut.

 

[clearance]

Ive noticed that almost every body makes face cuts when blocking down a tree. But you should try just cutting straight though when blocking. its way faster and pieces dont really tear. It works really good, on removels of coarse.

This is exactly what I do when firewood blocking down a tree. Of course if I am logging the tree down or cutting big chunks I use an undercut. If it is really sketchy and critical, I use a snap cut. 90% of the time I just rip right through, if you have a powerfull and sharp saw, and the wood is no thicker than the bar this works great. The block just stays where it is if it is big and heavy, if its small you have to hold it (one handing OMFG). I have cut Douglas Fir blocks that were 18" and wieghed way over 100lbs., By the time you have blocked the tree 50' down to where it is still over 2' at 70' left, you want to keep going with what works, you get buddy to send you up a bigger saw. Those blocks get heavy, its hard work, I refuse to waste time and effort putting in undercuts, especially with a big saw like a 288, why? Whatever works, this is what I was taught, done in so many times, seen it done so many times, it makes me laugh to hear this method condemmed here, each to his own.