Federal Airtight 264CCL Questions

[raybonz]

Well everything seems to be working great. Engaged the cat with probe reading 800. Quickly went to 1200, with the cat fully lit. Turned blower on and just checked it and the cat was still completely lit.

Before when I turned on the blower the right side (side the blower is mounted on) of the cat would always (since I've been paying attention) go from glowing to dark. About .25 of the cat surface would be affected/cooled.

Don't know if it is a coincidence, but it is looking promising.

Great job Brandon you're a smart guy! Still have a couple more 12 hr. days to work before I can look at this stove plus it is wicked cold here.. Last night got down to 15 (was 69 degrees when I got up both up and downstairs!) and tonight may hit single digits.. Brrrrrr

Ray

Was just thinking if the added insulation works out for you I may take you up on that offer.. Pretty interesting if this works as I think your efficiency will increase due to more complete burning of smoke..

 

[fonziefire]

Fa 264

HI All,

New to the site, but I have read alot from all of the members. I want to first thank everyone for being so informative. My question falls in line with all of the posts regarding the Federal Airtight.

I recently purchased a house, and found that I had a very inefficient fireplace setup. With some searching I found a good deal on a Dutchwest Federal Airtight insert. I grew up with a federal airtight, and love the way it looks and outputs heat. Well I noticed that the model I had purchased was an older one. The model number is FA 264CL, instead of the 264CCL that I continually see. The inspection date on the information plate is Sept 1980. I do not have the access port to a cat on top of the stove like most of the pictures show. I am not sure If my model even has a cat. I have two air knobs, one on the side door and one on the clean-out. From my understanding in reading the manual posted here, the knob on the clean-out should only be used when burning coal.

I plan on burning wood, but I have a few issues. One, I want to be sure that my stove would be ok in its condition without a cat or access to a cat if it does have one. Also, I need to run a liner down my chimney to make the connection. The outlet on the back of the stove is a 8" oval outlet. Some of the installers have told me that it would be a very hard connection to make as they normally run a 6" round liner. Are there any sites that make this 8" to 6" round adapter that will work with an insert stove. I don't know if certain clearance is needed, or if they make the adapter in SS. I found one site that sells a flex adapter to reduce it to 6" round but it seems to be made of aluminum. Would that be ok to use with 6" SS liner?

Sorry for being "green" with the verbiage and or questions. Any help or info that would prevent me from burning my house down would greatly be appreciated.

 

[bsearcey]

Hi fonzie.

First of all welcome and thanks for adding to the growing thread.

I'm pretty sure you don't have a cat. That is what the extra "C" in the "CCL" stands for. I believe the "CCL" stands for Convection, Combustor, and Left side feed door. So your's is a Convection stove with a Left side feed door. That is if this is a stove like mine, that can be used as an insert or as a free standing unit.

Anyway, as far as the connection goes. If your stove has an 8" flue collar I would try and go with an 8" liner system. Going smaller my really affect your draft. I have read that it is OK to go up or down in size to a degree, but not real sure of the "rule of thumb" for doing that. Another thing to consider would be the height of your chimney. If it is pretty tall i.e. 25ft, you should have good draft even with a 6 in liner. But because your stove has an 8" outlet I would try and match it.

I also have not seen any adapters for 6" round to 8" ovalized. Getting the liner (6 or 8) ovalized is no big deal. I know in with my install the ovalized liner worked better because of my rectangular flue. The way I connected my stove to the liner was by using a T-connection that was ovalized to connect to the liner and round where it connected to the stove. You're best bet, aside from scouring the internet, is to call up some of your local stove shops or a company like chimney liner depot. This could require something special. That's how I figured out my T-connection.

If at all possible I would use stainless steel for all my connections. Anything else will deteriorate and corrode alot faster. With it being an insert you're not going to be able to monitor this like you would with a freestanding stove, where you can get away with stove pipe from the stove to the liner connection.

So my advice:
Go with a 8 inch ovalized liner.
Connection between line and stove should be made with a SS component.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[fonziefire]

Thank You bsearcey for the quick reply.

My dilemma is that I plan on using this stove for a short time (couple of years) before I go ahead and upgrade. When I talked with one local installer, they had also mentioned running an 8" oval liner the whole length, but they quoted me at an astronomical cost. When I contacted another installer, they had mentioned having an adapter fabricated to connect to the 6" liner.

A little more information:

It would be a 25' liner. I would also like to have everything in SS as you had mentioned. I would very much like to use the installed liner for any future upgrades. If I have an 8" oval liner, than that would either limit me greatly or be a costly short term deal.

I definitely do not want to create any problems with drafts if I downsize, but that is why I am asking the masses. Im glad to see you have a similar stove, as Im sure you can attest to any problems I could face. I did find this type product:

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/Black-Stove-Pipe/Oval-to-Round-Adapter

But not sure if it is what I would use in this application. I would like that to connect to a 6" t adapter with a cleanout, then to the liner. Thoughts?

Again Thank You so much for the help. Again I am very leery of doing things half @$$ed as to not cause major damage.

 

[Justintoxicated]

I feel so left out now, I don't have a fan for mine at all, but plugging in a boxfan and aiming it at the stove seems to work pretty well

My project is on hold. I have not been able to fix the doors. I gave up on drilling out the holes without a press, whatever they used for the latch bolts are damn hard and the hole is already a little crooked. I haven't had time for any pics while its still daylight (or haven't been thinking about them anyways when I did). Started researching on drill presses and I'm confused as to what I actually need.

Anyways, just wanted to let everyone know I haven't given up, but I'm certainly not sure what to do next either.

 

[raybonz]

Great I'll give it a go. I don't mind the noise, but I agree that slowing the flow will allow the air to warm up more, even though it is pretty hot already.

Another benefit that may happen is the stove doesn't cool down too much either. I've noticed recently (because of discussions on the other forum), that my stove does cool down quite a bit while running the blower. The cooling is pretty pronounced on the side the blower is on. I also think that this also cools down my cat. For instance this morning, I got the stove going, engaged the cat, checked it a few minutes later and the entire cat was glowing. I then turned on the blower and checked the cat a few minutes later and the right side of the cat (side of stove the blower is on) was not glowing on the surface any longer. It had gone dark. It did appear that down in the comb it was still glowing, but not as much as the really lit side. I'm beginning to wonder if it has been causing or partly responsible for some issues I've been having.

Got any thoughts on that?

Thanks Ray.

Hey Brandon I replaced that missing cat bypass gasket yesterday and had to take the top off the stove so I could take the damper out.. This is the only way you can replace this gasket.. Took around 5 hrs. total but the stove is running well and NO smoke coming from the chimney now BTW the gasket does seal the entire bypass and took about 2' of 3/8" rope gasket..

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

Hey Brandon I replaced that missing cat bypass gasket yesterday and had to take the top off the stove so I could take the damper out.. This is the only way you can replace this gasket.. Took around 5 hrs. total but the stove is running well and NO smoke coming from the chimney now BTW the gasket does seal the entire bypass and took about 2' of 3/8" rope gasket..

Ray

Why 5 hours to remove the top of the stove and replace the gasket? I may end up doing this soon as well. Your temp gauge is in front?

 

[raybonz]

Why 5 hours to remove the top of the stove and replace the gasket? I may end up doing this soon as well. Your temp gauge is in front?

One reason is you have to scrape/remove all the old furnace cement then you need to add furnace cement to the top channels of the woodstove. I also removed the cat chamber and baffle then sealed the cat chamber with furnace cement. The flue pipe and collar had to come off and I also removed the cat bypass damper.. The temp gauge is the one above the cat in the polished cook plate all my other temp gauges at this time are magnetic but I just ordered an IR temp scanner to keep them honest.. I spent time looking for any places that may be leaking air into or out of the cat chamber too.. It takes much more force to lock down the cat bypass in the closed position now and I am sure all the smoke must pass through the cat.. Not sure if it took 4 or 5 hrs. total and that includes cleaning up the mess afterward..

Ray

 

[bsearcey]

Looks good Ray. I know my setup doesn't use a gasket now that I see yours. I really should pop the top off mine again and reseal all the seams. When I first got the stove and had the top off I was in a hurry to get it in, and never did remove all the old cement.

BTW - My cat seems to holding temps better since I put the insulation around the cat. Not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but I'm not getting the cooling I was noticing before when turning the blower on.

 

[raybonz]

Looks good Ray. I know my setup doesn't use a gasket now that I see yours. I really should pop the top off mine again and reseal all the seams. When I first got the stove and had the top off I was in a hurry to get it in, and never did remove all the old cement.

BTW - My cat seems to holding temps better since I put the insulation around the cat. Not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but I'm not getting the cooling I was noticing before when turning the blower on.

Brandon I think the insulation will make a difference and the newer stoves made by Dutchwest have it.. I did PM you my address in case it works out and I feel it will.. It took a while to remove all the old furnace cement from both the top and all the mating surfaces but sealing that damper will make a difference in the creosote forming in the pipes... To rebuild this stove all it would take is 2 qts. of furnace cement and some basic hand tools.. I also use Never Seize on all the bolts...

Ray

 

[Wood Doctor]

Federal Airtights are Clean Stoves

Seems like we are spending a lot of time on this thread getting these old Federal Airtight stoves to work. I think it's well worth the effort. The temp in the floor of my house where the stove works has not dropped below 68 F for over 20 years and now rests on 75 F. Take a look at the cleanliness of the stack immediately after I drop in a fresh load of dry wood:

See any major pollution? Now, here's the same stack 10 minutes later:

Now the secondary combustion chamber has hit 1000 F after 10 minutes, eventualy topping out at 1300 F. I usually reload between four and eight hours later. I rest my case.

 

[Justintoxicated]

Seems like we are spending a lot of time on this thread getting these old Federal Airtight stoves to work. I think it's well worth the effort. The temp in the floor of my house where the stove works has not dropped below 68 F for over 20 years and now rests on 75 F. Take a look at the cleanliness of the stack immediately after I drop in a fresh load of dry wood:

Now the secondary combustion chamber has hit 1000 F after 10 minutes, eventualy topping out at 1300 F. I usually reload between four and eight hours later. I rest my case.

Thats one bad ass chimney! Makes me feel inadequate with mine lol. Mine needs a good re-pointing too.

Oh and that makes sense about the top, I guess I will worry about sealing up the combuster chamber once I get the doors fixed and the rest of the furnace sealed up tight. Lucky for me it has not been dropping below 30 at night often and not for very long. In fact we just had record temperatures here in So California last weekend. It nearly got into the high 80's last weekend But yea, I still want this thing fixed, and I'm still eying drill presses online every day.

 

[raybonz]

Seems like we are spending a lot of time on this thread getting these old Federal Airtight stoves to work. I think it's well worth the effort. The temp in the floor of my house where the stove works has not dropped below 68 F for over 20 years and now rests on 75 F. Take a look at the cleanliness of the stack immediately after I drop in a fresh load of dry wood:

See any major pollution? Now, here's the same stack 10 minutes later:

Now the secondary combustion chamber has hit 1000 F after 10 minutes, eventualy topping out at 1300 F. I usually reload between four and eight hours later. I rest my case.

Impressive chimney Doc! Makes me wonder what the rest of the house looks like... Hope all is well with you..

Ray

 

[raybonz]

Why 5 hours to remove the top of the stove and replace the gasket? I may end up doing this soon as well. Your temp gauge is in front?

Sorry I misunderstood the temp gauge question.. Yes I have one in front and one on the right side to monitor stove temps.. It's easy to overfire these stoves especially when it is windy like it is here right now.. Seventeen degrees and 20-25 mph wind brrrrrr ... I loaded up the stove at 10:30 PM and got up at 6PM and it was still 70 up and downstairs.. Raked the coals toward the side door, reloaded and was running catalytic in about 20 mins..

Ray

 

[raybonz]

Same to you. I'm still uncertain about having a gasket there, even though I know the manual talks about it. There are some really hot flames and exhaust going up through that area. I have my doubts whether the gasket/cement would hold for any extended period of time. Also on my stove if I have a good strong fire and draft going the flames can get pulled up through the hole and out into the T at the back of the stove. I can see that gasket getting sucked right off. Anyway, I guess you'll never know until you try.

Brandon those gaskets can take about 1000 degrees (the rope will never see the cat temp).. The cement that came with the kits works well if you apply it and let the cement sit until tacky then place the rope into the groove.. Make sure you scrape out all the old gasket and cement thoroughly.. FYI the rope gasket was only missing along the edge opposite the hinge side of the damper.. I was surprised the gasket along the hinge side was intact after 22 yrs... I bought the 3/8" rope gasket kit at Lowes for 8 bucks and it includes the cement.. Had enough to seal the side door and the damper...

Ray

 

[Wood Doctor]

Chimney Height

Impressive chimney Doc! Makes me wonder what the rest of the house looks like... Hope all is well with you..

Ray

Well, I must admit it is the biggest chimney in the neighbothood and that was one of the things that impressed me about the house when I bought it 23 years ago. There are three masonry flues, and the longest one connects to the stove in the walkout basement. The other two go to gas log fireplaces that I seldom use. LOML won't let me burn wood upstairs, so the Federal Airtight only heats about half the house.

I think it's about 37 feet from the stove to the top of the flue, so the chimney sweep gets a workout every year. The draft is rather incredible when you fire a stack that tall, especially since the house is perched on a hill as well. I usually run the stove with the two air intake vents cracked open only 1/8" or so.

There is so little smoke coming out of this chimney most of the time that the neighbors hardly know that I burn wood. The best evidence of it is the stack of logs in the corner of the back yard and me unloading the truck.

 

[raybonz]

Well, I must admit it is the biggest chimney in the neighbothood and that was one of the things that impressed me about the house when I bought it 23 years ago. There are three masonry flues, and the longest one connects to the stove in the walkout basement. The other two go to gas log fireplaces that I seldom use. LOML won't let me burn wood upstairs, so the Federal Airtight only heats about half the house.

I think it's about 37 feet from the stove to the top of the flue, so the chimney sweep gets a workout every year. The draft is rather incredible when you fire a stack that tall, especially since the house is perched on a hill as well. I usually run the stove with the two air intake vents cracked open only 1/8" or so.

There is so little smoke coming out of this chimney most of the time that the neighbors hardly know that I burn wood. The best evidence of it is the stack of logs in the corner of the back yard and me unloading the truck.

Hi Doc,
I bet you could easily heat your house if you had it on the main floor.. Mine heats the whole house except the cellar which gets chilly but it is used for laundry etc. so it doesn't matter..

Ray

 

[bsearcey]

My small stove does a pretty good job heating my 1800 sqft house, considering it is not the perfect setting for the heat to get around. Recently though I do have to kick on the heat pump, because the upstairs is in the low 50s by about 5 am. I need to be more disciplined to wake up and keep feeding the fire. I would need to reload every 3-4 hours with the temps outside being what they are to keep the house (upstairs in particular) up to temp. Unfortunately my thermostat is also located in the same room as the stove, so while it is low 50s upstairs the living room is still mid 60s.

I need to relocate the t-stat, but have never really fished wire through walls, so I'm a little hesitant to try, especially to put it where I would like it to go.

One thing I would really love to do, is bust a hole in the bottom of the fireplace and actually make an air intake for the HVAC system directly behind the stove. Typically, while the stove is running hot, the temps behind the stove in the open area of the fireplace are around 140 degrees. Man if I could just tap into that I would have no problems getting the house warm just running the circulating fan. I'm pretty sure that would be against code, but man that would be perfect. Right now the air that enters the return is around 70. That doesn't last long though, so I'm sure by the morning it is more like 60 or 55.

 

[raybonz]

My small stove does a pretty good job heating my 1800 sqft house, considering it is not the perfect setting for the heat to get around. Recently though I do have to kick on the heat pump, because the upstairs is in the low 50s by about 5 am. I need to be more disciplined to wake up and keep feeding the fire. I would need to reload every 3-4 hours with the temps outside being what they are to keep the house (upstairs in particular) up to temp. Unfortunately my thermostat is also located in the same room as the stove, so while it is low 50s upstairs the living room is still mid 60s.

I need to relocate the t-stat, but have never really fished wire through walls, so I'm a little hesitant to try, especially to put it where I would like it to go.

One thing I would really love to do, is bust a hole in the bottom of the fireplace and actually make an air intake for the HVAC system directly behind the stove. Typically, while the stove is running hot, the temps behind the stove in the open area of the fireplace are around 140 degrees. Man if I could just tap into that I would have no problems getting the house warm just running the circulating fan. I'm pretty sure that would be against code, but man that would be perfect. Right now the air that enters the return is around 70. That doesn't last long though, so I'm sure by the morning it is more like 60 or 55.

That's a lot of house to heat with a small federal airtight.. My house is 1632 sq. ft. and I have the large and it handles it well and probably would handle your house too.. I wouldn't think it would be as hard to heat there as it here but the last 2 yrs. you've been pretty cold and snowy there.. The big advantage is a bigger firebox so you can get an overnight burn.. It was 70 degrees at 6 AM in my house and it was easy to get the stove going again with the coals..

Ray

 

[bsearcey]

Yeah I defiinitly know because of the small size of my stove I'm limited, plus the layout of my house doesn't help distribute the heat.

I'm really thinking hard about putting an intake behind the stove though.