Federal Airtight 264CCL Questions

[raybonz]

So what do I have to do to get this top piece with the broken screws out of the stove?

I messed up and meant to say all 4 bolts should be installed.. You are referring to the hold down clamps for the bypass damper pivot point correct? Without being there I would grind or cut the broken bolts flush if using vise grips after soaking with PB Blaster doesn't work.. If you have to grind/cut them flush then center punch the cut off bolt and drill a small hole through the bolt.. You'll need to determine the bolt size (I think it was a 1/4"-20, in that case a #7 drill or 13/64" bit (if I remember right) will be needed so you can tap for a 1/4"-20 bolt.. I don;t care for the flat head phillips bolts they used as they get chewed up too easy and have replace the ones for my flue collar with allen cap bolts and heavy duty black washers... Good luck!

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

I messed up and meant to say all 4 bolts should be installed.. You are referring to the hold down clamps for the bypass damper pivot point correct? Without being there I would grind or cut the broken bolts flush if using vise grips after soaking with PB Blaster doesn't work.. If you have to grind/cut them flush then center punch the cut off bolt and drill a small hole through the bolt.. You'll need to determine the bolt size (I think it was a 1/4"-20, in that case a #7 drill or 13/64" bit (if I remember right) will be needed so you can tap for a 1/4"-20 bolt.. I don;t care for the flat head phillips bolts they used as they get chewed up too easy and have replace the ones for my flue collar with allen cap bolts and heavy duty black washers... Good luck!

Ray

Exactly the bolts I am referring to. One broke off flush already. The other Is not flush but it is lower than the hold down clamps so I can't get to unless I remove (or rather break off) the 3rd remaining bolt (it won't budge). If I do this and I am unable to drill out the bolts, then the stove is trashed since it will no longer have the damper to redirect smoke through the combustor.

The problem is that the 2 horizontal pieces sticking up prevent me from drilling out the bolts because the drill is too wide and hits on these pieces. I would need a super long drill bit, and I don't know that I would even be able to drill into them with a hand drill.... So they would need to be drilled out from underneath which means I need to somehow remove this portion of the stove and flip it over. It needs to be done on a press because my drill bits just don't seem to be able to cut into the hardened bolts (using Rigid Cobalt Bits).


here is a picture of the problems I am having.

I suppose I need something like this to drill these out with a hand drill?
http://www.amazon.com/OmegaDrill-OD...1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297479479&sr=8-1-fkmr1

But I still have the problem of the hand drill itself not being narrow enough to allow me to drill straight down into the top...

 

[Wood Doctor]

This much difference?

It is hard to believe that there is this much mechanical difference between the 288 Federal Airtight stove that I bought in 1987 and this 264 that Justintoxicated is exposing on this thread. Based on what I see here, you would never know that the same MFG that made both of them. :confused2:

 

[raybonz]

Exactly the bolts I am referring to. One broke off flush already. The other Is not flush but it is lower than the hold down clamps so I can't get to unless I remove (or rather break off) the 3rd remaining bolt (it won't budge). If I do this and I am unable to drill out the bolts, then the stove is trashed since it will no longer have the damper to redirect smoke through the combustor.

The problem is that the 2 horizontal pieces sticking up prevent me from drilling out the bolts because the drill is too wide and hits on these pieces. I would need a super long drill bit, and I don't know that I would even be able to drill into them with a hand drill.... So they would need to be drilled out from underneath which means I need to somehow remove this portion of the stove and flip it over. It needs to be done on a press because my drill bits just don't seem to be able to cut into the hardened bolts (using Rigid Cobalt Bits).


here is a picture of the problems I am having.

I suppose I need something like this to drill these out with a hand drill?
http://www.amazon.com/OmegaDrill-OD...1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297479479&sr=8-1-fkmr1

But I still have the problem of the hand drill itself not being narrow enough to allow me to drill straight down into the top...

Can you access the threads inside the stove? Maybe you can soak the broken bolts good with PB Blaster and carefully get the broken bolts out with vice grips... I find it hard to believe that there is no groove for a gasket especially along that edge.. I know I had to scrape those grooves pretty good because it looked like I had no groove with the hardened gasket cement along with a little ash made em hard to see.. Look here for long drill bits: http://power-tools.hardwarestore.com/54-383-drill-bits-long.aspx .. It may be easier to drill 1/4 holes and use nuts and lockwashers or similar...

Ray

 

[raybonz]

It is hard to believe that there is this much mechanical difference between the 288 Federal Airtight stove that I bought in 1987 and this 264 that Justintoxicated is exposing on this thread. Based on what I see here, you would never know that the same MFG that made both of them. :confused2:

I hear that Ed.. Seems our stoves are very similar except yours is the big bad model.. I find it hard to believe there is no groove along that one edge.. I know mine had to be scraped pretty hard to clean up the grooves but they were there.. JI's stove survived an amazing amount of abuse... I give JI lots of credit for his perseverance as I would have took a sledge hammer to that stove on day one lol..

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

Well I hit it with a screw driver and mallot and it seems to be solid metal I think I will buy a write brush wheel for my dremel to get a clean surface for the cement. The bolts do not stick out out from underneath so i would really need to remove the inner top of the stove to drill kit out. Maybe I will just get a nice stainless allen bolt and try it with a single bolt. I'm curious what differences wood doctor is noticing?

Oh yea, I'm wondering if those drill bits will be sharp enough or hard enough to drill through the old bolt. I do believe I could drill it out with the 1/4th inch bit if necessary then tap the case to the next largest size. Is there some sort of super long extraction bit I could use?

 

[raybonz]

update?

Well I hit it with a screw driver and mallot and it seems to be solid metal I think I will buy a write brush wheel for my dremel to get a clean surface for the cement. The bolts do not stick out out from underneath so i would really need to remove the inner top of the stove to drill kit out. Maybe I will just get a nice stainless allen bolt and try it with a single bolt. I'm curious what differences wood doctor is noticing?

Oh yea, I'm wondering if those drill bits will be sharp enough or hard enough to drill through the old bolt. I do believe I could drill it out with the 1/4th inch bit if necessary then tap the case to the next largest size. Is there some sort of super long extraction bit I could use?

The suspense is killing me so it's time for an update JI.. I would be hesitant to use S/S bolts as the threads tend to gall but if you do be sure to use some high temp never seize on the threads as this will prevent galling at least when you tighten the bolts.. You may be better off drilling slightly oversized clearance holes and add a plate maybe some 1/4" thick or so flatstock to add strength with nuts and lock washers inside the stove.. At least if you seize another bolt sometime you could use a sawzall to cut off the nuts from inside the stove.. This would be much easier than what you're dealing with right now..

Ray

 

[raybonz]

groove

Exactly the bolts I am referring to. One broke off flush already. The other Is not flush but it is lower than the hold down clamps so I can't get to unless I remove (or rather break off) the 3rd remaining bolt (it won't budge). If I do this and I am unable to drill out the bolts, then the stove is trashed since it will no longer have the damper to redirect smoke through the combustor.

The problem is that the 2 horizontal pieces sticking up prevent me from drilling out the bolts because the drill is too wide and hits on these pieces. I would need a super long drill bit, and I don't know that I would even be able to drill into them with a hand drill.... So they would need to be drilled out from underneath which means I need to somehow remove this portion of the stove and flip it over. It needs to be done on a press because my drill bits just don't seem to be able to cut into the hardened bolts (using Rigid Cobalt Bits).


here is a picture of the problems I am having.

I suppose I need something like this to drill these out with a hand drill?
Amazon.com: OmegaDrill OD-1/8 1/8" Carbide Tap Extracting Drill: Industrial & Scientific

But I still have the problem of the hand drill itself not being narrow enough to allow me to drill straight down into the top...

Quite frankly I still believe you have a groove there and you just haven't gotten to it yet.. That is probably the most important place for the gasket to be.. I wish you lived nearby as I would love to see this in person.. I didn't think I had a groove there either but there definitely is one there.. You need it to get that gasket glued in properly... When that cement gets heated it's very hard but will come out with persistance and you certainly have plenty of that! Hang in there you're getting closer to completion every day! Keep up the great work and great pics to illustrate what you're seeing there!

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

Warped

Made some progress. Cleaned up and removed all the old gasket material with a stainless wire wheel attached to my drill. Then I chucked the wire brush into the press and removed all the rust from the steel door window inserts with it (they are ready for paint). I also seasoned the cast iron parts in my stove. The stainless air tubes I ordered look great compared to the old non stainless ones. I will be sure to snap a pic before I put them in.

Drilling the holes out and just using a bolt may very well be the best way to go. I did manage to drill one out with an undersized extra long drill bit I picked up from home depot. I will borrow my buddies #7 size bit to finish it up before tapping some threads. The drill bit I found was just a black oxide bit and seems to have dulled and I have not been able to drill through the second bolt yet (spent about 2 hours trying). Guess I should have bought the cobalt one I found on amazon but it was like $$35.

I'm pretty sure theres no gasket on the back side of the damper area, it does indeed seem odd, but I hit metal not hardened cement. This gasket area would be using the round gasket material right? I did receive some flat stuff in the kit from black swan as well but I am not sure what it is for, maybe I could use this? The damper seems to close against it fairly well. Much Better than the side that has the gasket groove which is warped and cracked.

This is the last problem I have and I do not know if it can be fixed. Once I solve this I just need to paint and cement it back together.


Warped by Glamisduner, on Flickr
What you see here is the combuster channel int he top and damper above it. picture was taken from inside the stove up through the middle to show the serious gap between the Damper and the damper gasket grove area.

Other than this last somewhat serious flaw the stove will be put back together better than new. (There was all kinds of areas where it appears it was never properly cemented under the top. Especially between the air channel for the blower and the top of the stove...Crazy!

To Fix this warped and cracked segment under the hinge for the damper, I'm thinking about attaching wax paper to the damper, and just sealing it up with cement rather than fiberglass gasket in order to fill the gap. Then, Perhaps once the cement has hardened, I could dremel out a channel in the cement to lay the gasket material in? I haven't worked with stove cement before so I figured I would run this by you guys first.

I thought about trying to bend this as well, but Cast iron does not seem very flexible... Especially not after its been heated enough to warp it!

 

[raybonz]

bednding cast iron?

Made some progress. Cleaned up and removed all the old gasket material with a stainless wire wheel attached to my drill. Then I chucked the wire brush into the press and removed all the rust from the steel door window inserts with it (they are ready for paint). I also seasoned the cast iron parts in my stove. The stainless air tubes I ordered look great compared to the old non stainless ones. I will be sure to snap a pic before I put them in.

Drilling the holes out and just using a bolt may very well be the best way to go. I did manage to drill one out with an undersized extra long drill bit I picked up from home depot. I will borrow my buddies #7 size bit to finish it up before tapping some threads. The drill bit I found was just a black oxide bit and seems to have dulled and I have not been able to drill through the second bolt yet (spent about 2 hours trying). Guess I should have bought the cobalt one I found on amazon but it was like $$35.

I'm pretty sure theres no gasket on the back side of the damper area, it does indeed seem odd, but I hit metal not hardened cement. This gasket area would be using the round gasket material right? I did receive some flat stuff in the kit from black swan as well but I am not sure what it is for, maybe I could use this? The damper seems to close against it fairly well. Much Better than the side that has the gasket groove which is warped and cracked.

This is the last problem I have and I do not know if it can be fixed. Once I solve this I just need to paint and cement it back together.


Warped by Glamisduner, on Flickr
What you see here is the combuster channel int he top and damper above it. picture was taken from inside the stove up through the middle to show the serious gap between the Damper and the damper gasket grove area.

Other than this last somewhat serious flaw the stove will be put back together better than new. (There was all kinds of areas where it appears it was never properly cemented under the top. Especially between the air channel for the blower and the top of the stove...Crazy!

To Fix this warped and cracked segment under the hinge for the damper, I'm thinking about attaching wax paper to the damper, and just sealing it up with cement rather than fiberglass gasket in order to fill the gap. Then, Perhaps once the cement has hardened, I could dremel out a channel in the cement to lay the gasket material in? I haven't worked with stove cement before so I figured I would run this by you guys first.

I thought about trying to bend this as well, but Cast iron does not seem very flexible... Especially not after its been heated enough to warp it!

You cannot bend cast iron under any circumstances! If you try to do this you break it for sure.. You should also never hit it with a hammer or similar or that will break it as well.. Furnace cement gets fairly hard when dry but it also gets brittle and I don't know how well it would hold up to create a channel.. I can't figure out what that broken piece is in the pic you posted.. Looks like an issue for sure.. On to the cat air tubes, I am pretty sure the original tubes are a low grade S/S and originally they bed them in some type of cement to seal them into place as you only want the air to travel to cat via the tubes.. I think furnace cement would work in this application..

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

You cannot bend cast iron under any circumstances! If you try to do this you break it for sure.. You should also never hit it with a hammer or similar or that will break it as well.. Furnace cement gets fairly hard when dry but it also gets brittle and I don't know how well it would hold up to create a channel.. I can't figure out what that broken piece is in the pic you posted.. Looks like an issue for sure.. On to the cat air tubes, I am pretty sure the original tubes are a low grade S/S and originally they bed them in some type of cement to seal them into place as you only want the air to travel to cat via the tubes.. I think furnace cement would work in this application..

Ray

yea I figured it would probably break.

Unfortunately it is this piece here.

Warped2 by Glamisduner, on Flickr

The crack is about where the red circle is and goes all the way through, but it's not like it is holding much. Anyways? The dark circle is the area that is warped. I know this is a bad leak, but I mean even so the stove was already working even with all the other leaks too before I took it apart.

 

[raybonz]

crack

yea I figured it would probably break.

Unfortunately it is this piece here.

Warped2 by Glamisduner, on Flickr

The crack is about where the red circle is and goes all the way through, but it's not like it is holding much. Anyways? The dark circle is the area that is warped. I know this is a bad leak, but I mean even so the stove was already working even with all the other leaks too before I took it apart.

OK from what you say that is the piece of the inner top that supports the cat chamber.. What I would do is apply a layer of furnace cement to seal the cat chamber to the inner top and then apply never seize to the bolts to prevent the furnace cement from adhering to the bolt threads as they are difficult to remove if you get furnace cement on the threads.. You may be OK doing that if what I see is correct..

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

OK from what you say that is the piece of the inner top that supports the cat chamber.. What I would do is apply a layer of furnace cement to seal the cat chamber to the inner top and then apply never seize to the bolts to prevent the furnace cement from adhering to the bolt threads as they are difficult to remove if you get furnace cement on the threads.. You may be OK doing that if what I see is correct..

Ray

Yea, this is the one part of the stove I am unable to properly repair but I sort of knew this going into it. I think the furnace cement will be fine to seal the car chamber (use this all the way around the cat chamber or is that was that flat gasket material is for?).

However there will still be a leak on the damper side as this is really the same piece. In the picture I took of the crack you can see the damper door in the closed position and there is a good 1/4 inch gap that I doubt the gasket material will fill.

Going to go get a paint stripping wheel today hopefully I can get a few of the removable pieces painted. I'll probably prep and paint the remaining portions of the stove another time though. Then all thats left is drilling out the rest of that bolt, tapping, cementing and gasketing everything back together..

 

[raybonz]

Yea, this is the one part of the stove I am unable to properly repair but I sort of knew this going into it. I think the furnace cement will be fine to seal the car chamber (use this all the way around the cat chamber or is that was that flat gasket material is for?).

However there will still be a leak on the damper side as this is really the same piece. In the picture I took of the crack you can see the damper door in the closed position and there is a good 1/4 inch gap that I doubt the gasket material will fill.

Going to go get a paint stripping wheel today hopefully I can get a few of the removable pieces painted. I'll probably prep and paint the remaining portions of the stove another time though. Then all thats left is drilling out the rest of that bolt, tapping, cementing and gasketing everything back together..

If the flat gasket material is fiberglass then it is probably the window gasket.. If it is not fiberglass and about 2" wide it is probably the cat interam gasket .. If your bypass damper does not seal properly you'll create lots of creosote and waste wood plus the cat will not do it's job properly.. That bypass damper really needs to make a good seal...

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

If the flat gasket material is fiberglass then it is probably the window gasket.. If it is not fiberglass and about 2" wide it is probably the cat interam gasket .. If your bypass damper does not seal properly you'll create lots of creosote and waste wood plus the cat will not do it's job properly.. That bypass damper really needs to make a good seal...

Ray

Ok I guess I will try the cement idea then? Ahh window gasket that makes sense then. I don't have windows though so I guess it is just extra material. I don't think there is a way to get the damper perfectly sealed, I mean theres not even a gasket grove on the far side. I would imagine since the cat is burning so hot that it would have some pull in it's direction? I mean it was working when I fired up the stove prior to taking everything apart, and the old cat was in miserable shape.

 

[raybonz]

Ok I guess I will try the cement idea then? Ahh window gasket that makes sense then. I don't have windows though so I guess it is just extra material. I don't think there is a way to get the damper perfectly sealed, I mean theres not even a gasket grove on the far side. I would imagine since the cat is burning so hot that it would have some pull in it's direction? I mean it was working when I fired up the stove prior to taking everything apart, and the old cat was in miserable shape.

Just an idea...

Amazon.com: Permatex 26346 Hi Temperature Metal Repair Compound - 0.7 oz.: Automotive

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

Just an idea...

Amazon.com: Permatex 26346 Hi Temperature Metal Repair Compound - 0.7 oz.: Automotive

Ray

Not sure how to use this product to seal up the damper. Does it stay soft or does it harden? Painted a few parts tonight and they came out great. I'll try to take some more pics once I finish the top and loading door.

 

[raybonz]

Not sure how to use this product to seal up the damper. Does it stay soft or does it harden? Painted a few parts tonight and they came out great. I'll try to take some more pics once I finish the top and loading door.

I would think it hardens but I don't know how it would hold up.. A skilled welder could repair it but the inner top would have to be removed.. The inner top is one of the parts that doesn't seem to be available..

Paint makes a huge difference for sure! The fumes when it heat cures are pretty bad so plan on opening a window or 2 with a box fan blowing out.. Look forward to the pics when it's done!

Ray

 

[Justintoxicated]

I would think it hardens but I don't know how it would hold up.. A skilled welder could repair it but the inner top would have to be removed.. The inner top is one of the parts that doesn't seem to be available..

Paint makes a huge difference for sure! The fumes when it heat cures are pretty bad so plan on opening a window or 2 with a box fan blowing out.. Look forward to the pics when it's done!

Ray

I know one welder that I'm sure could do it, but I wonder if it would be worth it and what it would cost. I have another friend who is pretty good at welding as well, but I think he would want to braze it and then maybe cut a groove into the added material? Actually I'll bet he would tell me to just use stove cement to form the gasket. I guess if whatever I end up doing does not work, it would not be the end of the world to take the top of it back off again.

Yea the top piece is not available anymore, I'm kinda suprised no1 make sit, but it is the most complex piece to re-make.

Oh yea, and my old air tubes do not appear to be stainless, they are very rusty and corroded. If they were stainless they were not very good stainless steel. I think I'm going to go the Anti Seize and stainless hardware route when I re-assemble. Fining stainless bolts is proving harder than I thought. I think I know of a place that will have them though.

Anyone know of any specific anti-seize that would work well at these temperatures. I know Pep-boys had some stuff that said it was good to 1600 degrees. Might need to resort to an online source to get something else? THis one is supposed to be good up to 2400 degrees. Amazon.com: Permatex 77124 Nickel Anti-Seize - 8 oz. brush-top bottle: Automotive

 

[raybonz]

I know one welder that I'm sure could do it, but I wonder if it would be worth it and what it would cost. I have another friend who is pretty good at welding as well, but I think he would want to braze it and then maybe cut a groove into the added material? Actually I'll bet he would tell me to just use stove cement to form the gasket. I guess if whatever I end up doing does not work, it would not be the end of the world to take the top of it back off again.

Yea the top piece is not available anymore, I'm kinda suprised no1 make sit, but it is the most complex piece to re-make.

Oh yea, and my old air tubes do not appear to be stainless, they are very rusty and corroded. If they were stainless they were not very good stainless steel. I think I'm going to go the Anti Seize and stainless hardware route when I re-assemble. Fining stainless bolts is proving harder than I thought. I think I know of a place that will have them though.

Anyone know of any specific anti-seize that would work well at these temperatures. I know Pep-boys had some stuff that said it was good to 1600 degrees. Might need to resort to an online source to get something else? THis one is supposed to be good up to 2400 degrees. Amazon.com: Permatex 77124 Nickel Anti-Seize - 8 oz. brush-top bottle: Automotive

Pretty sure I use the nickel never seize here.. You can buy S/S hardware online at places like this: Nuts and Bolts and Screws - Metric Bolts and Fasteners - Stainless Steel Fasteners ...

Ray