Firewood Bid Estimation

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FLRA_Dave

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I was looking at placing a bid of going in after tops behind a logging crew. I guess this is on a 200 acre plot. He sent me these numbers (attached image). I have never bid on tops before. It's always been just paid for what I pull out... as it gets pulled out. The landowner wants the bid to be for the entire lot, so I'm guessing you really want to be conservative with the numbers to make sure you don't lose out. The landowners guess was around 330 cords. Does that seem high? Or should I just run away from it?

IMG_3342.JPG
 
600 trees listed, so at 330 cord estimate that is suggesting if each tree were 1 full cord, half of that is tops. My guess would be on a traditional red oak I deal with, the majority of the firewood is in the stem, so I'd guess something like 1/3 of wood is tops. If my average oak yields 3/4 cord (on the high side, but these are for lumber, so should be large), then that is 1/4 cord per tree... wild ass guess of 150 cords.

I think it's rather high, but then again the board ft show the true size of the tree, and someone else can do the math there.

After your last job you wound up with a tractor and some other new tools... this one you gonna buy a skidder and a processor? :p
 
600 trees listed

He had initially said about 900 trees. I'm guessing that is with the addition of the pulpwood? I would take pulpwood tops... at a lower rate though.

wild ass guess of 150 cords.

That is a huge price difference if the volume was that much lower.

After your last job you wound up with a tractor and some other new tools... this one you gonna buy a skidder and a processor? :p

Ha... My wife says she is going to leave me if I buy any more equipment! Sometimes a skidder would be really nice with hilly terrain, but my little 3032e seems to do ok. I can't imagine a processor working well on tops. I keep thinking that a 3pt grapple would be nice... or a logging winch. I like the grapple idea because it feels like I'm forever getting on and off the tractor hooking chains.
 
what you need is a truck! (something bigger than a 1 ton) as im sure this land owner wants this work done in a timely manner.
a good idea if you dont want to buy a truck, is to pull ALL the wood to the landing (full length) and hire someone to truck it, then you can process it on your time, and not the land owners time. screwing around is at tle least a good way to get a bad name for your self, if not get you thrown off the job!

not trying to be an ass but thats alot of land and alot of wood for 1 guy with only a small tractor and a small pickup, nevermind that this is mostly a weekend thing for you...
 
Would be a good idea to look at site first and figure out access, and what kind of mess there is left for you prior to "bidding" on anything. See if everything is covered in mud.

Have tops been down all summer? date says march 2013.......

It is always quite miserable trying to walk through a woods in the few years just after logging. more sunlight = brush everywhere=no productivity
 
He had initially said about 900 trees. I'm guessing that is with the addition of the pulpwood? I would take pulpwood tops... at a lower rate though.



That is a huge price difference if the volume was that much lower.



Ha... My wife says she is going to leave me if I buy any more equipment! Sometimes a skidder would be really nice with hilly terrain, but my little 3032e seems to do ok. I can't imagine a processor working well on tops. I keep thinking that a 3pt grapple would be nice... or a logging winch. I like the grapple idea because it feels like I'm forever getting on and off the tractor hooking chains.
why would you take pulp wood tops at a lower rate?
theres no difference between pulp wood tops and saw log tops, other than the amount of wood, and even then thats not always the case.
 
why would you take pulp wood tops at a lower rate?
theres no difference between pulp wood tops and saw log tops, other than the amount of wood, and even then thats not always the case.
I guess I could have just got myself in trouble by assuming that they would be soft wood. I wouldn't want to pay the same price for a less desirable wood.
 
Would be a good idea to look at site first and figure out access, and what kind of mess there is left for you prior to "bidding" on anything. See if everything is covered in mud.

Have tops been down all summer? date says march 2013.......

It is always quite miserable trying to walk through a woods in the few years just after logging. more sunlight = brush everywhere=no productivity
I'm going to look at the property on March 8th. The guy days they probably have a few more weeks to go. Sounded like only a few guy crew getting it done.
 
what you need is a truck! (something bigger than a 1 ton) as im sure this land owner wants this work done in a timely manner.
a good idea if you dont want to buy a truck, is to pull ALL the wood to the landing (full length) and hire someone to truck it, then you can process it on your time, and not the land owners time. screwing around is at tle least a good way to get a bad name for your self, if not get you thrown off the job!

not trying to be an ass but thats alot of land and alot of wood for 1 guy with only a small tractor and a small pickup, nevermind that this is mostly a weekend thing for you...
Ok, I forgot to tell everyone that I got a new to me truck two weeks ago... a 2010 RAM 3500 CC SB SRW with a gooseneck hitch. And I'm looking at gooseneck trailers as we speak... err type.
 
well pulpwood is just a general term for wood other than saw logs, it can be both hard and soft wood, so you may want to verify with the land owner.
im just guessing it's hard wood as theres no soft wood saw logs on that list...
 
what ever the estimate is to the full cordages on logs to tops ratio is 1/4th for firewood..... according to the sellers estimate sheet the total for trees is in the neighbor hood of 600 trees, with a 1/4 ratio im guessing it at 75 cords at best . then there's the factor of quality after the cut for cull's unseen!
 
Ok, I forgot to tell everyone that I got a new to me truck two weeks ago... a 2010 RAM 3500 CC SB SRW with a gooseneck hitch. And I'm looking at gooseneck trailers as we speak... err type.
ok so you can load logs at the landing with your tractor, but what about at home? 5th wheel flatbed dump?
 
Would be a good idea to look at site first and figure out access, and what kind of mess there is left for you prior to "bidding" on anything. See if everything is covered in mud.

Have tops been down all summer? date says march 2013.......

It is always quite miserable trying to walk through a woods in the few years just after logging. more sunlight = brush everywhere=no productivity

Bingo

With no disrespect intended, if you bid blind before walking the job you're nuts.

You need to know the terrain, (skidding on steep sidehills sucks), how scattered the tops are through the lot, where are the wetlands, how big are the tops, etc. etc. Pulling small, scattered tops a long distance eats a lot of fuel and time. Even if they're close to the landing as the crow flies, if wetlands are in between a short hitch just became a long road. Will the landowner agree to multiple landings or are you restricted to the one(s) the logging operation used?

You don't mention a surety deposit and the conditions involved in either losing or getting it back. Insist on a written contract from the landowner detailing exactly what is expected. Verbal agreements go down the tubes fast if he decides you've damaged his property or you're not working fast enough. (Also watch out for nephew Charley and neighbor Steve being promised 10 or 15 cord each of the gravy wood.) What are the terms of payment? Do you have to pay surety and 1/2 bid total up front or the entire cost prior to start? What is the project completion requirement and does it grant any extensions for conditions created by bad weather? If you run out of time due to being shut down the landowner has every right to sell the remaining wood out from under you or renegotiate terms if this is not addressed up front.

When bidding, yes you want to go low as you can, but remember here in the Northeast, coming out of a cold winter firewood prices are on the upswing and the landowner is going to expect the bid(s) to reflect that. There's also a growing demand for chips and if one of those guys is involved they can pay more, harvest and be gone very fast with no brush left behind.

Are there any restrictions on transporting the white ash? They took a good chunk of bd ft of white ash, does a forester have to certify they're pest free prior to transport?

I'm in no way trying to discourage you, to the contrary I hope you get the job if you want it and do well. Just trying to alert you to some of the things that have either bitten me, or guys I was subcontracting for in the past.

Good luck to you

Take Care
 
oak,ash and hickory are the only ones that will be good after any length of time on the ground.top prices here are $25-35 per top.everyones replies all have good merit.i wouldn't attempt such a large amount without good help and lots of time. good luck if you do it.
Steve
 
i wouldn't pay more than 25-30 a cord and maybe find another guy to work with. i have bought tops after loggers in the past and its a pain. alot of small stuff and little straight stuff. now i buy the whole tree and get the good stuff for the same price or alittle more and i leave some of the tops for someone else. you will find yourself taking the bigger stuff and moving to the next one, the small stuff is too time consuming. i also would pay as you go if possible, maybe 20 cords at a time. and rest assured those loggers will take everything they can. that is why this guy wants a contract up front. and keep in mind the smaller trees may hardly have any meat left on the bone. i think his estimate is way off. I would run!!!!
 
i wouldn't pay more than 25-30 a cord and maybe find another guy to work with. i have bought tops after loggers in the past and its a pain. alot of small stuff and little straight stuff. now i buy the whole tree and get the good stuff for the same price or alittle more and i leave some of the tops for someone else. you will find yourself taking the bigger stuff and moving to the next one, the small stuff is too time consuming. i also would pay as you go if possible, maybe 20 cords at a time. and rest assured those loggers will take everything they can. that is why this guy wants a contract up front. and keep in mind the smaller trees may hardly have any meat left on the bone. i think his estimate is way off. I would run!!!!

At the location I'm at now I'm paying $15/cord for all hardwood tops... pay as I go - just leave the cash in an envelope on their porch. It's close enough to my work that I get to spend about 45 minutes 4X per week on it during my lunch hour. As well as 4 hours every other Saturday. Your right about the straight stuff - good luck. And a lot of it gets pushed into piles so it needs to be taken apart.
 
oak,ash and hickory are the only ones that will be good after any length of time on the ground.top prices here are $25-35 per top.everyones replies all have good merit.i wouldn't attempt such a large amount without good help and lots of time. good luck if you do it.
Steve

The guy seems to have no problems with it going over several years, but he is concerned that the wood will get tough to cut if let to dry too long. The only reason I am considering it is because it is within 15 minutes of my sister in-law and I'm over there every other weekend for 4-5 hours while my wife is at work. I have other guys that say they are willing to help, but I have heard that before...
 
ok so you can load logs at the landing with your tractor, but what about at home? 5th wheel flatbed dump?

Nah... Can't afford a 5th wheel flatbed dump. I was thinking of a deckover that I could roll the logs off of back at my sister in-laws (15 minutes away and she has way more land than me - she is all for it). When I take the tractor back at the end of the day, then I would tidy up the logs for when I can process them in Sept-Dec when the landowner hunts the property.
 
i would talk the guy into splitting it into sections or something. one landowner i cut tops for wanted me to take as long as possible something about his tax rate going from recreational to agricultural rate because it was being( logged) and he was selling wood. he also tapped maple trees for syrup for this reason.
 
Will the landowner agree to multiple landings or are you restricted to the one(s) the logging operation used?

That is a very good question.

Are there any restrictions on transporting the white ash? They took a good chunk of bd ft of white ash, does a forester have to certify they're pest free prior to transport?

In NY I know that in general you are restricted to a 50 mile radius from the source of the wood unless it was kiln dried and what not.
 

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