Free climbing?

[TREETX]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
TreeeTx and the rest of the jury are so smart they can judge others' intelligence and intentions from a few words? Why not give the kid a chance to talk details before ?

I wasn't judging anybody guy - just judging a practice. Free climbing is dangerous. There was no

A few words?? Was this his first post

Why do these threads always have to turn into tit-for-fat, swinging-dick pi$$ing contests?

I should know better than to chime in on page 5 of a pissing contest. I'm out. Happy pissing and don't forget to flush!!

 

[rborist1]

:Eye:

 

[Dan F]

Not trying to revive an old(er) thread, just catching up.

Carl, when you have one of these in a few years, you will understand why so many here think it is SO important to work safely and come home at night!


Dan

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Dan F
Carl, when you have one of these in a few years, you will understand why so many here think it is SO important to work safely and come home at night!

I have four of those (none as beautiful as Lilah though), but they do not motivate me toward overkill on safety, like always tying in before climbing ladder or never free-climbing.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Guy,

Where is the post that suggested tieing in while ascending a ladder? Now, working on a ladder is another thing. Then Z133 requires a tie in. Just what the difference between ascending and working isn't defined.

I think there is a huge difference between following safety rules at you chosen level and saying that anyone who follows higher safety levels is over board.

Tom

 

[MasterBlaster]

When I worked offshore anything over 4 feet required a harness/lanyard. At times that was kinda silly. I remember wiping down the bulkhead all geared up on a ladder

Then, when a boat had to be unloaded, we were swung over the side standing on a man-carrier with nothing but our grip on the net. No lanyard or nothing, 175 ft plus over the Gulf of Mexico.

It was so cool! I LOVED that!

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
Guy,

Where is the post that suggested tieing in while ascending a ladder?
Several folks said they don't leave the ground withour a tie-in, and I've worked with folks who practice that too. No names.
Sometimes it's called for, often it's not. To insist on doing it exceeds ANSI and is a drain on the economy, at least the contractor and the client's budget.

I think there is a huge difference between following safety rules at you chosen level and saying that anyone who follows higher safety levels is over board.

I choose to refer to ANSI and operate at the level my skills and limitations require, ready to document a reason for any variance. Anyone can exceed ANSI and is free to do so. . But that does not put them on a higher level of safety or professionalism or anything else..
(If it looks overboard to me I'm free to say so and they're free to ignore that). But just as varying from ANSI shouldn't be done without a good reason, nor should exceeding it, imvho.
Butch 175' over water doesn't count because it's...over water. Gotta watch for those belly flops though, huh?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

It all depends on how hard or soft the water is. Since the Gulf is salty, the water must be soft. Had you done the same over Lake Superior, the water would be hard so you would have to have fall protection on.

Tom

 

[Ax-man]

I'm going to steer this thread a little of course, but still stay in context as to why we should be safety conscience at all times, not only for ourselves, also our loved ones.

Climber has full knowlege of ANSI.

Enters tree with all safety gear and knowledgeable in it's use and proper application but choses not to use it.

Free climbs into and past 40 ft. no survive fall zone, slips and falls from the death zone and doesn't make it.

Witnesses on ground tell proper authorities climber was not using any safety gear.

Question???

Would insurance pay off saying it was an accident or would they say climber was negligent and balk on payment to the bereaved spouse and family????

 

[Tom Dunlap]

An insurance agent once said that insurance companies don't have a "stupid clause" to let them off the hook. They would pay.

If they could prove that it was a suicide the rules are different.

Tom

 

[Koa Man]

If you are talking about life insurance, they would pay if the policy has been in force for at least 2 years. All the life insurance policies I looked at had a 2 year restriction on suicides.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Ax-man

Free climbs into and past 40 ft. no survive fall zone, slips and falls from the death zone and doesn't make it.

I'm not sure this 40' line would even be noticed let alone applied, by an ins.co. or anyone else. this seems to be an arbitrary number that popped into someone's head and has some scant data and was spoken in public at an expo. Now it's supposed to be real special?

ANSI allows free climbing past 40' if the tree is thickly branched. Free climbing at 39'--or 29' or 19'-- in some trees would be patently idiotic and yes would be the act of someone with a suicide complex.

Using any referent outside of ANSI just tends to make these standards less relevant. The whole point was to agree; throwing out arbitrary nonstandards and giving them spooky names like "death zone" works against that effort. Will we be motivated by knowledge or fear??

 

[tjk]

Our policy is to be tied in at all times, excluding little one step up crab apples. This policy has been in place and enforced for 3 years and we have had no complaints from the climbers or the owner, production has not suffered, it has gone up, as the workers needed to learn how to use thier tools to their best advantage. Being secured at all times is very doable with the equipment avaliable today.

 

[jimmyq]

Ok, so I won't be free climbing. I passed on the job that started this thread in consideration of safety etc. I am the owner of a slightly used butt strap saddle courtesy of a smoking deal from Stumper ( even threw in a lanyard pretied with a hip prussik). I have my climbers companion on the coffee table and am reading and re-reading it to get the good thoughts going, soon I will go find some low branches to climb in and get used to the saddle and the technique. Thanks again for all your input and advice guys. Just for the record I am no longer working from the trunk of my car I managed to find a truck and traded off the car, got soaked on the deal but it needed to be done, life goes on.

 

[jimmyq]

BTW I am strangely proud to have started a thread with 1600 views and 5 pages of responses, is that weird?

 

[Joe]

Originally posted by jimmyq
BTW I am strangely proud to have started a thread with 1600 views and 5 pages of responses, is that weird?

No, absolutely not.

Read these words as nothing more than a p.o.v. I see people who've never done tree work that decide they're going to get into the business without on the job guidance are biting off way more than they could chew. The world in the trees is much different than one sees from the ground or through others experiences. I've never truely seen a person do it with help only by reading.

Joe

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Last weekend I got together with Jeff Jepson for breakfast and then we did a small pruning job for an Uncle of his. While we were pruning Jeff told me that was the 9th anniversary of his accidental fall.

When ever I think of falls, I think of how different my world would be if Jeff wouldn't have survived the fall. I think of what his kids looked like nine years ago and what they have turned into nine years later.

On another level, what would arboriculture be like had Jeff not written the Companion? Now that it's available in German and Spanish even more climbers can learn about good climbing practices.

Guy,

this seems to be an arbitrary number that popped into someone's
head and has some scant data and was spoken in public at an expo.

It's not an arbitrary number but its close to accurate. It's easier to speak of 40' than 37.75. Its more conceptual than exact.

ANSI allows free climbing past 40' if the tree is thickly branched.

WRONG for Z133.1-2000. Take a look at 9.1.2 (2)

"While ascending a tree where the density of branches growing from the stem prevents the arborist from crotcing the arborist climbing line or work-positioning lanyard through the branches, then and only then, is the three-point climbing technique acceptable."

If you choose to free climb, that's your priveledge. I'd be really sad to ever hear that you had an accident from free climbing. Dismissing the practice of being secured isn't good practice.

Tom

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Jimmyq,

This shows how important the issue is to climbers.

Take a look at the list by Views:


Tips and tricks ( 1 2 3 )
topnotchtree
96
3115


Falling a Big One ( 1 2 )
rbtree
61
2805


My First Decent Sized Tree (
1 2 )
Lumberjack
45
2593

Handsaws vs chainsaws? ( 1
2 3 )
MasterBlaster
119
2416

Free climbing? ( 1 2 )
jimmyq
77
1710



Milling blood red box elder
Tom Dunlap
22
1399

11-1

I'm stunned that my post on the box elder is that popular.

Tom

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap

ANSI: "While ascending a tree where the density of branches growing from the stem prevents the arborist from crotcing the arborist climbing line or work-positioning lanyard through the branches, then and only then, is the three-point climbing technique acceptable."

GM: Therefore, ANSI allows free climbing past 40' or 400' if the tree is thickly branched. How else can you read that sentence?
Trying to create vague "higher standards of professionalism" just detracts from ANSI.

TD: Dismissing the practice of being secured isn't good practice.

GM: You're absolutely right. I'd never dismiss it. The most useful post in this thread was your reminder that the double-lanyard system is totally safe and a big time-and-headache saver over the fling-zing method in thick trees.

I and other oldfolks like Ox use a short, light climbing line because it can be both flung or polesaw-pushed ahead of the climber while in the tree and used for tie-in. Together with a lanyard it provides a fast, secure means of ascension. You can be tying your heavier climbing line into the top while flinging fanatics are still on the ground, trying to yank their sacks off of twigs.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
I'm stunned that my post on the box elder is that popular.

I'm stunned if no one is out there right now, wounding boxelder to make the wood turn red. Sounds like a financially lucrative way of managing a despised species.