Friction devices aloft

[Tree Machine]

Are there any other places that will allow a free and open discussion of all-things-arbocultural? Doing a little web searching might turn up one or two other places that allow video hosting and free flowing conversations.

You know, Tom, you bring up a very good point. See, I came into this thread knowing I was going to get bleeped, so no big surprise. If I were to share this openly at another site that would allow free sharing of all things arboricultural it would certainly mean one thing: that it didn't get discussed here.

That's all good and well, but the question got asked here.

I don't have a burning desire to take the time to assemble images and video clips and put together a couple illustrations. I don't mind taking the time to fully describe some methods in pictures, illustration and video (monster oak over a slate roof home, yum!). What was i saying? , oh, just that the question was asked, and I have some good stuff that pertains to the question, which is, "Do you guys lower stuff from up in the tree, and how?

 

[Tree Machine]

Xtreme posed the question:

Friction devices aloft
Do you use them?

I am saying, YES, all the time and am offering to share how it's done, or a series of techniques. This would just be how the Tree Machine does it whis is in no way intended as a suggestion that YOU do it. Personally, I think you should do whatever you're doing if it works for ya.

It has been explained to me through a good number of fellow arborists in e-mails and phone calls of why I'm being censored. If I can't show and explain the techniques, then maybe I can share why (I think) this material is not passing inspection. It really does make sense and I am really, fully, in agreement with it.

The reason(s) are based on physics. What you are doing up there when belaying down a limb is controlling friction from in front of you. This can be done in two ways: EITHER you set a sling onto the tree with a friction control device on the sling, OR the friction control device is attached to YOU. The latter is where I'd like to start. Any one of you could go out right now and show us how to set a sling on a tree part, attach a friction device and pass the rope through it. BUT, you will be slow, well, not really slow, but not swift. To adopt this technique, aside from the need for it to be safe, it needs to be faster than the way you're currently doing it.

The way I'm showing would be where the friction device is attached permanently to the front of your saddle. It is a 24/7 friction controller used for lowering small limbage. Since it is attached to you, it is most controversial to suggest that others try this, which again I'm not suggesting that anyone go out and do this. I'm just sharing a few ways that it can be done.

The bottom line, as I am to interpret this, is the physics of the rope going UP through the friction device is the same as the friction device going down the rope. The point? You can use the device for both personal friction control and for lowering limbage.

There are a lot of devices out there that will work. All of them offer that if you use the piece to lower limbage, you can also use the same device to rappel down. This takes the friction hitch completely out of the picture. By using spliced ends on ALL rope, there is hardly a need for knots.

A world of arboriculture without friction hitches or knots????

Can you see why my respected elders do not wish this to be discussed? In the arborist world, this is New School. No Blakes or taughtlines, no split tails, no VT's, tress cords, 2:1 systems are now purely optional, traded in on 1:1 swiftness where 100% of the friction you control from a piece of metal attached to the front of your saddle .

That's the deal, guys and gals. On the outside it would appear TM is showing how to lower limbs from the tree, but what is really being shown is an entirely unique 1:1 climbing system that allows the option to lower limbs from up in the tree using the same device as you use to control YOUR friction on your lifeline when working the crown.

I can see where the friction hitch world would be intimidated by this.


There are also associated risks with lowering limbs from up in the tree where the friction device is attached to you. This totally makes sense. Perhaps if we discussed these risks rationally maybe then we can see the pictures. Compare this to the use of a chainsaw, inherent risks, we discuss and illustrate kickback to better understand it, but we go on using the saws.

I ask the moderators to allow me, in the context of describing the limb-lowering-from-up-in-the-tree methods, to include rational safety advice alongside, what could or does go wrong, and what to do to prevent it, the limitations of the device and ways that the device could be improved. If I do this will you let me share?

What do you think, Xtreme?

 

[046]

very interesting developments...

Auto-locking belay devices like Petzel Grigri are popular at gyms with climbing walls. they also have a reputation for being mis-used leading to people getting hurt using auto belay devices.

 

[Tree Machine]

There are a LOT of options if you commit to climbing on 11 mm rope. The world of mechanical devices is open to you. SRT, DdRT, DbRT, interchangable.

11 mm rope
Spliced eyes and biners
mechanical friction handling

This is new school climbing.

I would think in Search and Rescue and the rock disciplines as well as Alpine mountaineering it would be necessary to belay something down, like an injured human or gear. Being able to do this in the tree is the same stuff that they do, only we would do it with a great deal more frequency and practice and we can be experts at aerial rigging and lowering of limbs up to 2-3 times your weight. As well as anything else. Practice makes perfect.

We should discuss ways to improve any friction device we talk about. This is a device that needs to be flawless. Like good Arboristsiters I'm sure we'll pull it apart and scritinize it good and hard, as Men's and Women climbers using the device may be putting their life on it. Any device will have to be 100% failsafe.

I don't think that device exists yet.

Maybe the censorators will let me describe what I believe to be that device. Since it is conceptual and doesn't exist we would be, in essence, 'creating it' here in the public forum.

Now can that be against the rules?

 

[trevmcrev]

Keep at it Tree Machine!, in the meantime i hope these moderators are aware of the concept that a little bit of information can be very dangerous and that at the moment people might be trying to figure this out without all the info available to us from the likes of those such as the Tree Machine that are already safely using such systems. At the end of the day, when we get all the uncensored info we will make a choice as to how safe we see that practice to be and decide for ourselves whether or not we feel safe doing so.
Its not as though we will all run out and do something that could be risky just because someone else did it. In this industry we are all taking pretty big, but measured, calculated risks every moment of every day.
:deadhorse:

Trev
Ps. If you dont get a reply from me within 24hrs someone please come looking for me as i may have torn myself in 1/2 up in a tree somewhere trying to lower a branch!!! Not.

 

[046]

personally don't trust spliced eyes, would much rather tie knot myself. that way I KNOW it was done correctly.

seems that if one belays down only small loads, less than your own body weight. you have to staying within safe load capacity of equipment.

TM what self belaying device(s) are you using?

 

[xtremetrees]

TM wrote, "The bottom line, as I am to interpret this, is the physics of the rope going UP through the friction device is the same as the friction device going down the rope. The point? You can use the device for both personal friction control and for lowering limbage."
You'll have to ask tree spyder about that one TreeMachine.

I agree with others who simply have to tie the knot.. I always have and always will probably. I like to set it taught on my limbs and even reach further out to grab against a latteral stubb. Remeber 5 feet is alot in a tree. I once knew a climber that kept tied two monkey fist at the ends of his rope. He never untied them and used the fist to make his knots and threw his rope alot.I've had one or two limbs excape my running bowlin in several years with not so good results. Where your tieing knots or slinging large top bark seperation seem to be about equal with both techniques the facctor of weight seems more inportant that attachment technique.

I say I do not mix my gear. I.E. Lower(working) and personal(life) but alas I dnly my figure 8 have I lowered a few pieces and return it to my saddle for escaping purposes. Maybe 10 times in 6 years I have lowered (mixed) my figure 8 into working purposes. I need a fig. 8 just for lowering.

My climbing rope is exclusively my own and I do not lower with it. Often I need to wait and call for a lowering line I thought the limb I could sling but could not.

Things look different from aloft. A top you thought from the ground would go, wont. A limb you thought was short and would clear from the grouond wont.

I try and plan my climbs from the ground. Thought I wont spend alot of time looking at a tree I'll just do it.

I'm always fighting in my head my old way techniques with new safer ones. Anymore I'll try and take the safer route. For instance it took me almost 1 hour to do a dead pine which in my youth I'd have down in 15 minutes.Only because I'm more aware of what can and will go wrong. I will stand on the dead tops and observe all movement i.e. up and down the tree also side to side sway.

On dead trees I just wont hardly at all lower limbs from them. Dead pines especially. I think speedlinning from dead is even more risky than standard lowering.

Hopefully, I've got 2 110 foot pines this month. I'd like to climb to the top, tie in rappell down 10 feet attach a speedline, rapell down start my work, speedlinning only by tightening and looseing the rope against the tree.

I suspect you do alot of this TM pulling(tightening) the rope away from the tree while limb and stap are still attached, then make your cut.
slacking the line back to the tree and so on and so forth.??

 

[Tree Machine]

Yessir, Mr X. I speedline with the ground end anchored near the chipper and I reposition and tension from up in the tree. It's very similar in nature to the lowering of a limb. Just controlling friction against dynamic tension, rather than friction against a hanging weight and constant, predictable gravity.

At the end of the day, when we get all the uncensored info we will make a choice as to how safe we see that practice to be and decide for ourselves whether or not we feel safe doing so.In this industry we are all taking pretty big, but measured, calculated risks every moment of every day.

It's really not that risky, not if you follow the common sense guidelines of not going too big and not using your lifeline for lowering limbage.

TM what self belaying device(s) are you using?

I use a lot of different devices for working the crown and abseiling. I'll try anything that comes along, and I'll revisit devices I haven't used in awhile, just to keep things stirred up. There are hundreds of different ways to control friction up front, lots of devices and it's not so important what I'm using this week.

Besides, one of the issues here, I think, is that if you use a device to control friction to lower yourself, you can use the same device to lower the limb. This has thrown a red flag up, just because the possibility of this concept exists.

This is not what I'm suggesting you do, nor maybe, is it the way I do it, but The potential is there to dual-use a device this way, in both lowering a limb and lowering yourself. The elders know that the practice of lowering limbs from aloft is done by many, and that the technique of lowering a limb to the ground solo and retrieving your rope from upstairs is nothing new.

The part that scares the moderators is that it is so easy. Every one of you can do it now with what gear is on your saddle. When you figure how to lower limbs, out of speed, ease of use, convenience you'll try controllling your personal friction in the same manner and then you'll be lowering a limb and abseiling on the same rope at the same time, riding the limb down like a floating snowboard.

See, the Mods are trying to protect yourself from your own self and I have to side with that. Work positioning is everything in this industry. Working the rope and blending friction with gravity. This goes for lowering a limb from aloft, or yourself coming down the rope. Personally, I feel if the limb does not weigh any more than you that the rope and device wouldn't know the difference. Weight is weight, right? The difference is in that if you lower a limb and mess up, the limb may come down. If you lower YOU and mess up, you may come down and this is not as OK. One arbobuddy said that you guys would do stupid things like lower the limb to the ground, and then use it for an 'anchor', using single rope technique then to work the crown, or to rappel down. As tempting as this stuff might be, I have to go with the moderators on this one and agree that a little information can be a dangerous thing.

 

[woodchux]

"a little information can be a dangerous thing"

Sooooo true,
That is exactly why we need ALOT of information on this subject.
PLEASE allow us to make informed, educated decisions about this subject .
It could SAVE someones life !!

 

[046]

a HUGE part of the problem of getting info off AS is separating wheat from the chaff.

it's always buyer beware!!!

going from quality of TM's postings, it's plain TM knows what he is doing.

Tom D, Gypo, Lakesides, lopa, skewl, etc, etc and yes even Simon has posted some quality content.

but you always gotta watch it, even Tom D will throw a boner once in a while.

video a few posts above, free climbs. then ropes in on top.
some beginner could accidently see that, not read disclaimer shortly below and think that's the normal way you do it.

As always NEVER use internet as your only source of information! find an experienced pro to learn from.
start slow and low...

 

[tophopper]

I dont understand why TM is being censored for discussing rigging.

Maybe if the mods would speak up with a valid reason, but to this point it seems like someone is on a power trip.

How bout it mods? Is there a valid reason?

 

[sawn_penn]

I would think in Search and Rescue and the rock disciplines as well as Alpine mountaineering it would be necessary to belay something down, like an injured human or gear.

In mountaineering you work with what you have at hand. Body belay, munter hitch, whatever. It doesn't need to be strong, because your anchors rarely are (ice axe in snow, etc.) Rarely are you dealing with a vertical drop either - more likely a slide on a steep slope.

In vertical lowering (cliff and cave rescue SAR scenarios) a regular descender is inadequate when loaded with two people. Generally you will need extra rope wraps around a carabiner or something similar to get the load under control.

A limb of 2-3x body weight will be a similar problem. You need to be able to find enough friction to keep the load under control. Also, because limbs weight widely differring amounts, you need enough variable friction to cope with all cases.

In my experience, a good personal descender is always a hopeless rescue descender and visa versa. My choice for a rescue descender is a whaletail or a goldtail (big metal bars with slots cut in the sides), and my choice for a personal descender is a Petzl Stop. Petzl Stops are great primarily because you can easily pull rope backwards through the descender.

Of course, my expertise isn't in trees...

 

[Tree Machine]

I dont understand why TM is being censored for discussing rigging.

It's not the rigging. It's the potential for a man to misuse the information and possibly get hurt. This subject came up about 2 years ago and it didn't fly then. There were technical limitations to the system that I think can be easily overcome (will explain more).

Personal aerial rigging boils down to controlling friction. Controlling it under the weight of yourself, or that of a limb. Controlling it with precision which gives you confidence and you can try more and more interesting things and also importantly, make more money because of increased swiftness and abilities.

All this, and it boils down to one simple device for handling rope.

I would like to 'conceptually' share the idea of this device. It does not exist. But with a little digital help, I can share the idea visually. Maybe some of you can pitch in and offer thoughts.

For the naysayers who may jump in and try to denegrate some good, rational idea sharing, y'all can bugger off.

I'm going to start throwing down some pictures. Some of them I'm going to have to Photoshop and there may be some illustrations that have to be created. If the censors would understand there is time involved and I fully believe that the reading audience is CLEAR that this is for lowering limbage no more than twice the climbers weight. That would be cuts, maybe big around as your forearm.

Are we all in agreement on that?

I will take silence as a 'yes'.

 

[Tree Machine]

.:taped:

 

[Tree Machine]

Well OK then.

Moderators, step back from the censor button. Everyone's vote was cast and it was unaminous.


Oh great censor gods

let me show them the cool stuff....

 

[a_lopa]

good points made

 

[reachtreeservi]

For GOD's sake man!

a lopa Please get rid of that avatar. Sure , You can use that. But why ?

 

[trevmcrev]

a lopa Please get rid of that avatar. Sure , You can use that. But why ?

Yeah it freaks me out everytime i see it!!!

 

[sawn_penn]

For the naysayers who may jump in and try to denegrate some good, rational idea sharing, y'all can bugger off.

I hope my comments about good/bad descenders didn't make me seem like a "naysayer". I'm always interested in new ideas.

I don't think I've been censored yet, but I have some quick release knot ideas that have been used for lowering equipment in caves that'll probably get me bleeped. I'll go and read the rules again before I post anything....

 

[Tree Machine]

The naysayers I speak of are not involving themselves in this thread, but they're out there, waiting at the edge to jump in and tear this thing apart.

I welcome this, as any methods used by others should be able to stand up to any amount of scrutiny. What I don't want is naysayers jumping in and badgering it for the sake of stirring up controversy.

There doesn't need to be controversy. If someone wants to add value to this thread by bringing in factual data, something solid to justify your fault-finding, critical stance, then that is entirely welcome here. If you want to spout off with some emotional knee-jerk reaction, then bugger off.

If there are limitations, I'll be very open in sharing and listening to creative ways of improving.

Remember, this is a concept friction control technique[/] using a device that doesn't exist. Since it's a virtual idea, we can digitally alter the design to modify the cyber-piece and overcome any current limitations.

This may sound totally whack to some of you, but I really believe this can happen, right here in front of all of us.

Should we just go ahead and invite Kong, Italy into the thread? It will be mostly pictures, illustrations and video from here on out and will transpire languages.

Or do we douche-bag this thread right now?