Camping with Bob would leave staying at the Pelatso Versace for dead! lol
Granberg Chisel Bit File-N-Joint
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LOL...well, that what you get Bob, for being inventively handy.
I have the same problem here...people want me to fix everything they have. Hopefully when I retire, I can turn that into supplemental income. I was going to take your hand piece pics down to the machinist, but I can't seen to import them into anything on the PC. Usually, I can just copy pics and put them in a file, but not this time.Never mind on the pic thing...I just needed to 'name' them and import to a folder. Thanks a million...I guess I should ask permission to use your pics/idea?
Kevin
shootingarts
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lfnh has posted a zip of a beautiful set of instructions and parts list for a 106A on the other thread. Linking to it here. Thank You lfnh!
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...f-someone-can-help.218306/page-2#post-4688433
Some lack of trust in the site's stability, gonna try to post the link to the zip here too.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/attachments/g-106a-doc-small-zip.332554/
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...f-someone-can-help.218306/page-2#post-4688433
Some lack of trust in the site's stability, gonna try to post the link to the zip here too.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/attachments/g-106a-doc-small-zip.332554/
(posted this same reply on your link as well)
Great stuff! But yes, the 107 directions were somewhat different. They were specifically for chisel chain and talked more about the angles. The front and rear guide bars were much different, as you could vary the tilt angle of the square file with individual barrels/bushings. And there were hash marks all around the circle of the barrels/bushings. I'm guessing(because mine disintegrated) each mark was around 2 degrees. What frosts me is that I have these old tattered directions somewhere, I just can't find them at present.
Kevin
Great stuff! But yes, the 107 directions were somewhat different. They were specifically for chisel chain and talked more about the angles. The front and rear guide bars were much different, as you could vary the tilt angle of the square file with individual barrels/bushings. And there were hash marks all around the circle of the barrels/bushings. I'm guessing(because mine disintegrated) each mark was around 2 degrees. What frosts me is that I have these old tattered directions somewhere, I just can't find them at present.
Kevin
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I prefer losing things to putting them up. There is at least some chance of finding them if I just lose them!
My instructions are no help on square filing, gonna have to find a set of 107 instructions looks like. I'm still waiting on a reply to an e-mail I sent to Granberg about a month ago, suspect that if you want to contact them the phone is the best route. Of course after moving the world to get the instructions the originals will show up.
Hu
Well then, I guess my query to Granberg was moot as well. I suppose they figure it's easier to ignore requests, then to embroil themselves in something of ancient history to them. Honestly, if you get a 107 or make the hand piece and adapt to a 106B(as I'm gonna try to do), I can provide the instruction step x step from experience. As far as rigging a 106B to square file with a six-sided file, like the one reviewer did on amazon.com......the best idea there is to mark the inside of the cutter with a Sharpie et all and set it up from trial & error to remove the mark with two passes-especially the corner which is key. This biggest lesson in chisel chain is that if you get it right, it's extremely fast....if you get it dialed in wrong, it will cut crooked and drive you crazy. As far as free-hand filing...its' done, but takes a lot of practice & patience.
It may be just a matter of time before ATOP does .404 chisel...it does smaller chisel chain now. But that's a pretty expensive proposition for something that looks like to me, is fixed angles. The angles I use now on the 107 are from trial & error in the woods, in my youth as a professional faller. I've just stayed with them all these yrs because they work. Soon, I'm rigging a log stand in my alley so I can test saws and chain. I have a mill available down the street so logs are no problem. Besides Fir, Pine and Tamarack though, I'm not sure what is available to me from there. I have an old, high-quality analog camcorder, so I'll set it up out there and make vids. Have a capture device to go digital with it as well. I just designed the log stand a few minutes ago...all metal and will support up to 3ft diameter logs up to 21ft in length. I can make it for bigger diameter, but have no way to move logs in place in the alley that big.
Kevin
Go for it. If you need higher res pics shoot me a PM.
Yes....I can't imagine an adjustment past its range. Yeah, $200+ for the ATOP and you don't chose angles...nah. What angles are you using for race chain?
Kevin
Thanks so much, Bob! I can't imagine him needing clearer pics....I printed one out 8x10 and it looks great.
Kevin
Around 30-35° top plate. 5° side plate.
Got the G-106B in the mail today from amazon. So for around $30, I now have a new base. Can't see a reason in the world why this new base won't work like the old G-107's base. Now the guide and hand piece...that's another matter. I can use the top bar, guide and the middle stiffener square bar....below that and it's custom city. I need to take that part to the machinist and see if there an easier way to adapt, then what he's already doing. I was glad to see the base jig is relatively unchanged.
Kevin
Kevin
Well, I might of hit a stumbling block today. Went to the machinist with Bob's pics...he has no problem making the ends of the hand-piece...but starting grumbling about milling out the grooves for the file. Then I gave him around $100 limit and he said talking to me has about reached that and then laughed. Well, I've done a lot of business with this guy and needless to say, I was surprised at that comment. I understand 'time' and a machine shop, but the weather has made his work really slow right now. I guess that doesn't mater. For what I need and what he's doing, I can't see going much over $100. If it can't be done for that....then I guess this project is dead for now. I think I'll go back and tell him I'll mill out for the file and do all the set screws....
Kevin
Kevin
shootingarts
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Kevin,
A small shop owner does have an issue with "business" time and shop time. I worked long hours when my business got going pretty good simply because most of the time while I had the gate open I was conducting business instead of on my tools. Some time lost to conducting business is unavoidable but I do understand a man having to strike a balance.
Right now I'm struggling with the design too, those adapters are time consuming to make and made as one off pieces they may cost three or four times the cost of the end pieces to make.
Things often aren't what they seem. I looked over a drawing that was sent with a request for a bid at a machine shop a friend owned. The bracket was at it's extreme dimensions a little over one inch by about three best I recall. Something in that size, maybe smaller. However it held a custom light on a custom machine and the designer had gotten a little too cute with the design. To make that bracket in one piece as specified they were going to run seven or eight hundred dollars a copy. That bracket was about the same size as an endpiece on the file guide. No welding, single piece, it was going to take close to a day to machine with lots of set-ups.
In production injection molding or casting the adapters might be the ticket. Right now any option I can think of is going to make them twenty or thirty dollars each, maybe more, in a short run of maybe forty. Two one off pieces might well be over a hundred each for the adapters, maybe several times that. Trying to figure out how to make them myself too. I believe several people have, they might be willing to tell us how they did things. It would be easier to have fixed angles for the file in terms of making the guide but that isn't what is wanted.
I worked in R&D years ago and am still trying to refine a design. My best ideas are expensive right now. Many a good idea dies because it can't be made at a price people are willing to pay. I would like to get that top down to forty dollars or less, right now I can't have them made to sell for a hundred each with where I am at in design. I have an idea or two that would vastly speed production and make the cost of production once tooling costs were recovered feasible but tooling runs from over a thousand to over ten thousand. A simple mold for an injection molder often runs tens of thousands by itself.
Still think I can build something to use for myself. Hand making much of it I might have twenty or thirty hours in a unit. How much is twenty or thirty hours shop time worth?
I think my friend with a shop can make simple end pieces for under thirty dollars each if there is any real demand, low dozens. To sell thirty or forty units it isn't justified to build jigs and fixtures which is how he usually competes with NC in his short run production shop. If I could order batches of a hundred I might get them down to ten or fifteen dollars each. We will spend about a full day in his shop to build me a one off top if I decide to proto-type. Takes care of me and if that is all I can do I will try to post very detailed pictures for others to copy. That first top will be a thousand dollar item though! I had a simple round handle made from aluminum in a machine shop. Round, a few grooves, riveted on to the handle. A two dollar kitchen knife with a hundred and fifty dollar handle on it and that was over twenty years ago. On the plus side the knife is still going strong!
I have turned out thousands of components in my friend's shop myself so I do understand things aren't always what they seem. I'm down to designing the adjustable ends now and I'm struggling. Trying to decide whether to design for the flat six sided file or six sided "triangular" file, both have pluses and minuses.
Just a long post to try to explain and tell you don't be too hard on the machine shop owner. His bills still roll in when times are slow and he might not be interested in working for basically nothing. Making things is fun when it isn't what we do for a living. Doing it all day every day it is just a job.
Hu
A small shop owner does have an issue with "business" time and shop time. I worked long hours when my business got going pretty good simply because most of the time while I had the gate open I was conducting business instead of on my tools. Some time lost to conducting business is unavoidable but I do understand a man having to strike a balance.
Right now I'm struggling with the design too, those adapters are time consuming to make and made as one off pieces they may cost three or four times the cost of the end pieces to make.
Things often aren't what they seem. I looked over a drawing that was sent with a request for a bid at a machine shop a friend owned. The bracket was at it's extreme dimensions a little over one inch by about three best I recall. Something in that size, maybe smaller. However it held a custom light on a custom machine and the designer had gotten a little too cute with the design. To make that bracket in one piece as specified they were going to run seven or eight hundred dollars a copy. That bracket was about the same size as an endpiece on the file guide. No welding, single piece, it was going to take close to a day to machine with lots of set-ups.
In production injection molding or casting the adapters might be the ticket. Right now any option I can think of is going to make them twenty or thirty dollars each, maybe more, in a short run of maybe forty. Two one off pieces might well be over a hundred each for the adapters, maybe several times that. Trying to figure out how to make them myself too. I believe several people have, they might be willing to tell us how they did things. It would be easier to have fixed angles for the file in terms of making the guide but that isn't what is wanted.
I worked in R&D years ago and am still trying to refine a design. My best ideas are expensive right now. Many a good idea dies because it can't be made at a price people are willing to pay. I would like to get that top down to forty dollars or less, right now I can't have them made to sell for a hundred each with where I am at in design. I have an idea or two that would vastly speed production and make the cost of production once tooling costs were recovered feasible but tooling runs from over a thousand to over ten thousand. A simple mold for an injection molder often runs tens of thousands by itself.
Still think I can build something to use for myself. Hand making much of it I might have twenty or thirty hours in a unit. How much is twenty or thirty hours shop time worth?
I think my friend with a shop can make simple end pieces for under thirty dollars each if there is any real demand, low dozens. To sell thirty or forty units it isn't justified to build jigs and fixtures which is how he usually competes with NC in his short run production shop. If I could order batches of a hundred I might get them down to ten or fifteen dollars each. We will spend about a full day in his shop to build me a one off top if I decide to proto-type. Takes care of me and if that is all I can do I will try to post very detailed pictures for others to copy. That first top will be a thousand dollar item though! I had a simple round handle made from aluminum in a machine shop. Round, a few grooves, riveted on to the handle. A two dollar kitchen knife with a hundred and fifty dollar handle on it and that was over twenty years ago. On the plus side the knife is still going strong!
I have turned out thousands of components in my friend's shop myself so I do understand things aren't always what they seem. I'm down to designing the adjustable ends now and I'm struggling. Trying to decide whether to design for the flat six sided file or six sided "triangular" file, both have pluses and minuses.
Just a long post to try to explain and tell you don't be too hard on the machine shop owner. His bills still roll in when times are slow and he might not be interested in working for basically nothing. Making things is fun when it isn't what we do for a living. Doing it all day every day it is just a job.
Hu
Thoughts on the run:
If somebody sets up to run a bunch of them, the cost would drop down. That is why I was hoping that 'some hack with a CNC' might jump in?
BobL did his low tech, but did have access to a lathe. I would have to try and 'turn' the barrels on a drill press with a file, unless I could find some ready-made part (plumbing?) to modify. Maybe this does not need to be a stepped barrel: maybe it could be straight, or have a stop collar soldered/welded/brazed to it?
If you use rectangular piece of aluminum for the end frames, and don't slim it down to the 'keyhole' profile like BobL did, that saves some steps.
I would like to see them milled out of aluminum. But you could use some hard plastics (phenolic, glass filled nylon, Delrin, etc.), or even very hard wood (bubinga?), that are easier to work at home.
If somebody sets up to run a bunch of them, the cost would drop down. That is why I was hoping that 'some hack with a CNC' might jump in?
BobL did his low tech, but did have access to a lathe. I would have to try and 'turn' the barrels on a drill press with a file, unless I could find some ready-made part (plumbing?) to modify. Maybe this does not need to be a stepped barrel: maybe it could be straight, or have a stop collar soldered/welded/brazed to it?
If you use rectangular piece of aluminum for the end frames, and don't slim it down to the 'keyhole' profile like BobL did, that saves some steps.
I would like to see them milled out of aluminum. But you could use some hard plastics (phenolic, glass filled nylon, Delrin, etc.), or even very hard wood (bubinga?), that are easier to work at home.
I agree with everything you said. But, you just had to be there...I mean I've done business with him for yrs. If he didn't want to do the job in the first place, he should have manned up and said so. So as it is, after a long relationship with him, I've got a knot in my stomach thinking about it. I think I'm gonna go back in, ask for my stuff back and offer to pay him for the 'talking about it' part.
I like Philbert's ideas and he had another but the posting got cut off. It was;
Another option to simplify the design would be to cast the ends of the files into short sections of tubing, using epoxy or solder. This would eliminate some lathe work and a couple of set screws. These would get tossed with the file when it is used up.
Granberg did contact me BTW and the instructions for the G-107 File n Joint are not longer in existence there.
Kevin
Another option to simplify the design would be to cast the ends of the files into short sections of tubing, using epoxy or solder. This would eliminate some lathe work and a couple of set screws. These would get tossed with the file when it is used up.
Granberg did contact me BTW and the instructions for the G-107 File n Joint are not longer in existence there.
Kevin
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Phil,
Probably safer not to refer to them as hacks even in jest but here is where some outstanding CNC machinists hang out, some hobbyist, some not. If we could finalize a design then we could request quotes. A group buy would probably be best and probably the best solution to this. Once a guy has the NC set up a group buy once or twice a year would probably work.
Hopefully I won't incur anyone's wrath for posting a link to a noncompeting site.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/
Hu
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