Handling Damaged Batteries

[Philbert]

“The Power Tool Institute has released a new video demonstrating how to properly handle a battery that’s in thermal runaway.

“A lithium-ion battery that is too hot to touch, melting, smoking, or on fire may be in thermal runaway, which can be caused by misusing or abusing the battery, such as by dropping, puncturing, damaging, or exposing the battery to liquids,” according to a statement from the institute.”



“Lithium-ion batteries, when purchased by an OEM for their respective tools, are safe. More and more counterfeit and knock off batteries have appeared in the market and can cause serious issues, including fires.

“As detailed in the video, the quickest way to cool down and stop an overheating lithium-ion battery is to immerse the battery in a sturdy container filled with water and keep it there for 24 hours.“

Philbert

 

[OM617YOTA]

Also, DON'T BREATH THE SMOKE. Hydrofluoric acid is released or produced, and it doesn't take much to change your whole world.

 

[Philbert]

The recommendation to submerge in a bucket of water is at least somewhat surprising to me, because I know that Lithium reacts with air, and elements like Sodium react violently with water.

Generally, I would want to isolate the damaged battery on a piece of concrete, or bare ground.

But, they are ‘the experts’ as far as power tool batteries, so, I guess this is what to do.

The ‘24 hour’ thing is interesting too.

Philbert

 

[OM617YOTA]

Pretty sure the water recommendation is to absorb and dissipate the thermal energy. Pot of warm water is safer than a road flare.

 

[Mad Professor]

The recommendation to submerge in a bucket of water is at least somewhat surprising to me, because I know that Lithium reacts with air, and elements like Sodium react violently with water.

Generally, I would want to isolate the damaged battery on a piece of concrete, or bare ground.

But, they are ‘the experts’ as far as power tool batteries, so, I guess this is what to do.

The ‘24 hour’ thing is interesting too.

Philbert

Alkali metals. Potassium is a real fun one to work with. Just moisture in air can start a fire. Usually worked with in a dry inert atmosphere like argon gas.

At the end of chemical reactions we would quench excess alkali metals by dumping the small amounts left over into a large volume of water. They would react and give off hydrogen gas which caught fire. Little dancing bits of flame on the water....

 

[Philbert]

I checked with a firefighter friend, and someone ’in the industry’, and they both indicated that the recommendations in the video appear valid.

Philbert

 

[Sidecarflip]

Don't much care actually because 90% of my battery operated tools are HF and their chargers are very limited in charging amps plus they completely shut off when charged back up and I'm in no hurry any way. If it takes a couple hours to recharge, I'm good with that and I keep fully charged spares on hand anyway.

I'd never have a battery powered lawn mower or chainsaw where the discharge rate is high. I'll keep running my syn fueled chain saws and brush cutters, thank you.

High discharge rates = heat.

 

[SCMtnHaul]

Don't buy cheap lithium batteries. One of my neighbors got burned, pun in tended, by a cheap battery. He bought a Gooloo jump starter, https://us.gooloo.com/ , and had come back from a weekend of racing and was charging the Gooloo in his shop. All of a sudden he looks out the window and sees smoke and flames coming from his shop. The shop was a total loss with many, many, tools inside as well as a car. Don't buy cheap lithium batteries.

 

[sean donato]

It's been standard practice to submerge lithium polymer batteries in water if they have an issue/ complete discharge before disposal in rc uses for years. The video is quite spot on in that respect. More water the better. I disagree with the 24hr minimum, but li-po packs more punch then li-ion. Usually I'll let them soak for at least 3 days before pulling one out of the bucket.

 

[SCMtnHaul]

Don't much care actually because 90% of my battery operated tools are HF and their chargers are very limited in charging amps plus they completely shut off when charged back up and I'm in no hurry any way. If it takes a couple hours to recharge, I'm good with that and I keep fully charged spares on hand anyway.

I'd never have a battery powered lawn mower or chainsaw where the discharge rate is high. I'll keep running my syn fueled chain saws and brush cutters, thank you.

High discharge rates = heat.

I have a lot of Stihl's battery tools and they have some very conservative batteries when it comes to temperature. And by conservative I mean the batteries shut themselves off if it gets hot while using them. I honestly don't know how anyone could even use them in places that get truly hot for a significant portion of the year. This has only happened while using the battery KombiMotor with weed whacker attachment on a 90 degree day. The battery mower from Stihl doesn't seem to require much power based on the runtime from the AP300 batteries, and that the batteries don't ever feel warm after lengthy use. And the battery chainsaws I only use for light duty--as in make a few cuts, drag brush, make a few cuts, drag brush--so the batteries never get a chance to warm up. If I was running a saw non-stop there's no way I would use a battery tool if only for the better power/weight ratio of most gas saws.

 

[sean donato]

Don't much care actually because 90% of my battery operated tools are HF and their chargers are very limited in charging amps plus they completely shut off when charged back up and I'm in no hurry any way. If it takes a couple hours to recharge, I'm good with that and I keep fully charged spares on hand anyway.

I'd never have a battery powered lawn mower or chainsaw where the discharge rate is high. I'll keep running my syn fueled chain saws and brush cutters, thank you.

High discharge rates = heat.

Hugh discharge rate does not equal heat of the battery is sized properly and used within its C rating. Common myth. Yes discharging a battery at max c rate will get it warm, but will not cause a thermal runaway. Shorted cells, damage, over/under charging can cause thermal runaway. Most, if not all, commercial batteries have over/under voltage and over current cut off built in and a lot also have thermal cut offs as well.
The chances of having a thermal break down on most chargers is, also, very, very low. Besides the aforementioned built in safety features, chargers have a comically low charge rate. Most modern high quality lithium batteries can accept 2x C rate for charging. 5.0 amp hour battery can take a 10 amp charge. Even the "fast chargers" seem to limit charge rates to 8 amps or less, with active cooling. Generally speaking chargers that don't have active cooling are 4 amp or less, typically 1-2 amp chargers. Something really has to go wrong for the batteries to go into thermal breakdown. 90% (most likely higher) of people will never experience any issues in their life with lithium batteries.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Don't much care actually because 90% of my battery operated tools are HF and their chargers are very limited in charging amps plus they completely shut off when charged back up and I'm in no hurry any way. If it takes a couple hours to recharge, I'm good with that and I keep fully charged spares on hand anyway.

I'd never have a battery powered lawn mower or chainsaw where the discharge rate is high. I'll keep running my syn fueled chain saws and brush cutters, thank you.

High discharge rates = heat.

This is largely incorrect. Charge and discharge rate mean very little, as long as you're within the specs of the battery. Lithiums are very safe to dump far more amps than an equivalent size lead acid due to their lower internal resistance.

Thermal runaway almost always involves physical damage to the battery causing a flame, and that flame heating things enough to get exciting. If you start with a hot battery, it can take less for that flame to get the battery to thermally run away, but any even half ass designed battery management system will shut things down wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before the batteries get anywhere close to that. The advice to avoid cheap batteries is very good advice.

That's all with lithium ion. As lithium iron oxide batteries come into more common use, this danger gets even less, because lifepo4 doesn't burn.

 

[Philbert]

I have read concerns over ‘counterfeit’ and ‘cheap’ batteries being especially problematic.

The failures I have experienced have all been failure to take a charge; presumably from one bad connection or battery cell in the pack.

But any tool can get dropped, resulting in a battery case breaking. So it’s good to know what to do.

Philbert

 

[OM617YOTA]

Project Farm testing counterfeit batteries recently. Definitely don't buy counterfeits.

 

[HumBurner]

http://kymkemp.com/2024/06/13/quick...-in-commercial-structure-fire-on-nursery-way/

Battery-caused fire up in Arcata just the other day

 

[HumBurner]

This is largely incorrect. Charge and discharge rate mean very little, as long as you're within the specs of the battery. Lithiums are very safe to dump far more amps than an equivalent size lead acid due to their lower internal resistance.

Thermal runaway almost always involves physical damage to the battery causing a flame, and that flame heating things enough to get exciting. If you start with a hot battery, it can take less for that flame to get the battery to thermally run away, but any even half ass designed battery management system will shut things down wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before the batteries get anywhere close to that. The advice to avoid cheap batteries is very good advice.

That's all with lithium ion. As lithium iron oxide batteries come into more common use, this danger gets even less, because lifepo4 doesn't burn.

I've been using my battery saws around burns for a few years now. I definitely wish Husqy would enclose the battery compartment to keep heat/sunlight from being less of an issue, as well as less worry over dust or moisture getting in. IPX4 rating or not.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Not sure what you're saying. Enclosing the battery compartment would make heat more of an issue, not less.

 

[HumBurner]

Not sure what you're saying. Enclosing the battery compartment would make heat more of an issue, not less.

I doubt it, especially as the fan inside saw still would pull air across and out.

I work standing immediately next to raging burn piles at times, and often have to take an extra step or two away from the fires to cut up material, whereas with the gas saw, the heat is not such a big deal on them (so long as you don't have a bad fuel leak)

Same for prolonged exposure to direct sunlight.

 

[Breckinridge Elkins]

Those e-bike/scooters, etc go up in flames all the time. They have relatively large and power dense batteries but everything is cheaply made in China.

 

[SCMtnHaul]

Those e-bike/scooters, etc go up in flames all the time. They have relatively large and power dense batteries but everything is cheaply made in China.

Not all of them are cheaply made in china and when a fire does occur it has always been with a bargain basement brand. I'm sure some high-end manufacturers have had problems but so far I have yet to read/hear about them. Not always, but often "you get what you pay for".