Handling Damaged Batteries

[Mad Professor]

I used to work with pound size chunks, of PURE lithium/sodium/potassium............

Potassium was the most dangerous. The higher MW/At # alkali metals are worse I've been told.

 

[Philbert]

Not always, but often "you get what you pay for".

Yeah, the cheap batteries make me a little nervous. But any battery can get dropped or damaged, and this same response should apply.

Philbert

 

[Sidecarflip]

Not all of them are cheaply made in china and when a fire does occur it has always been with a bargain basement brand. I'm sure some high-end manufacturers have had problems but so far I have yet to read/hear about them. Not always, but often "you get what you pay for".

Not really, saw a video of a Toro Time Cutter electric zero turn going up at some show somewhere with the local fire department just standing there, bewildered. I've also read about a few Ego electric mowers catching fire and burning to the ground. If one pack ignites, it sets all the others on fire and no extinguishing them either.

 

[Sidecarflip]

I've been using my battery saws around burns for a few years now. I definitely wish Husqy would enclose the battery compartment to keep heat/sunlight from being less of an issue, as well as less worry over dust or moisture getting in. IPX4 rating or not.

It's IP rating btw and it means nothing as far as real world use anyway. Only time I look at the IP rating is on precision digital measuring tools and I want to see at least an IP54 rating.

 

[SCMtnHaul]

Not really, saw a video of a Toro Time Cutter electric zero turn going up at some show somewhere with the local fire department just standing there, bewildered. I've also read about a few Ego electric mowers catching fire and burning to the ground. If one pack ignites, it sets all the others on fire and no extinguishing them either.

I was only referring to the fires caused by electric scooters and bikes. The low-end manufacturers seem to always be the ones implicated. I have not read about fires related to landscape equipment yet, but I'm sure the incident rate will increase as more equipment is put to use in the field, so to speak.

 

[Sidecarflip]

I was only referring to the fires caused by electric scooters and bikes. The low-end manufacturers seem to always be the ones implicated. I have not read about fires related to landscape equipment yet, but I'm sure the incident rate will increase as more equipment is put to use in the field, so to speak.

I'm sure it will. One thing I do know and that is, don't park your EV in the garage plugged into the charger and forget about it because if it catches on fire and your garage is attached to your house, your house is a goner.

Besides, the smoke that they give off is highly toxic...

 

[OM617YOTA]

Last I checked, gas cars actually catch fire more often than EVs. If you're OK with a gas car being parked in your garage, an EV shouldn't bother you either.

 

[Mad Professor]

Last I checked, gas cars actually catch fire more often than EVs. If you're OK with a gas car being parked in your garage, an EV shouldn't bother you either.

But water doesn't work good on lithium fires, makes it worse.......

 

[Sidecarflip]

Last I checked, gas cars actually catch fire more often than EVs. If you're OK with a gas car being parked in your garage, an EV shouldn't bother you either.

All my gas cans (full or empty), I keep OUTSIDE as well as my 500 gallon diesel storage tank as my diesel tank besides keeping my farm tractors, my 27KW diesel powered standby genny runs of it.

No EV's here and never will be.

 

[Philbert]

But water doesn't work good on lithium fires, makes it worse.......

Back to the original part of the thread, submerging the power tool battery in water is what the industry recommendation is.

Harder to do with a vehicle.

Philbert

 

[Sidecarflip]

Depends on if you have an in ground pool and a way to dunk it in it. No in ground pool here, but any one of my loader tractors can pick up any EV. Guess I could dump it in the creek out back however...lol

 

[Philbert]

Last I checked, gas cars actually catch fire more often than EVs. If you're OK with a gas car being parked in your garage, an EV shouldn't bother you either.

Family member had a Lincoln parked in an attached garage. Wires in the driver’s door shorted out, somehow, overnight.

Because the windows were fully rolled up, the fire couldn’t really get going, but the entire interior melted.

A good reason for fire code rated sheetrock on the separating walls.

Philbert

 

[Mad Professor]

Back to the original part of the thread, submerging the power tool battery in water is what the industry recommendation is.

Harder to do with a vehicle.

Philbert

My post was a reply concerning car batteries, not sure if driving in a lake/river would be an option........

All the alkali metals react with water to make hydrogen gas and heat of the reaction , ignites it with oxygen in the air.

If you are going to put a Li battery in water, have a VERY large bucket/pail relative to the battery, and do it outside, it's going to generate hydrogen gas.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Unless you're watching and able to take immediate action, if either tech catches fire, you're likely to be screwed. The door wires in an EV can short out and catch fire too, completely independent of what powers the car. Thus far experience has shown that EV's catch fire less than gasoline cars, but either is a nightmare when it happens. I think the hype and supposed danger is overblown, given what people will accept with a gasoline car.

That said, I don't care for parking vehicles or keeping fuels inside my garage either. Fuels are kept in a separate shed, outside my house and shop both.

When I built my solar power system, I built it trailer mounted. This was in large part to avoid permits and red tape, but it also kept the heavy amperage wiring and the batteries outside of any of my buildings, even though I used lifepo4, which doesn't burn. Added bonus.

 

[Sidecarflip]

Why my 40 x 80 shop and garage is unattached and stands alone. No issue with it roasting the house.

 

[sean donato]

Back to the original part of the thread, submerging the power tool battery in water is what the industry recommendation is.

Harder to do with a vehicle.

Philbert

They actually make container for vehicles now. They had them at the American tow towman show last year.
https://evfirebox.com/
Scroll down the page a bit to see it.
There are high temp blankets, and a variety of chemical extinguisher agents that will work too. Just very expensive to use.

My post was a reply concerning car batteries, not sure if driving in a lake/river would be an option........

All the alkali metals react with water to make hydrogen gas and heat of the reaction , ignites it with oxygen in the air.

If you are going to put a Li battery in water, have a VERY large bucket/pail relative to the battery, and do it outside, it's going to generate hydrogen gas.

I'm not sure why you would keep a bettery undergoing thermal runaway in side any building, however the hydrogen gas is the least of your worries as far as what they give off. Should be more worried about the fluoride, cyanide, sulfur dioxide, and chloride gasses. The hydrogen will be burned rather quickly the others will kill you without knowing it and from a relatively low concentration.
Since 99% of people don't have any of the expensive chemical agents, removing the heat from the thermal runaway is still the best and most practical method of cooling the battery and depleting the stored energy.

 

[sean donato]

Unless you're watching and able to take immediate action, if either tech catches fire, you're likely to be screwed. The door wires in an EV can short out and catch fire too, completely independent of what powers the car. Thus far experience has shown that EV's catch fire less than gasoline cars, but either is a nightmare when it happens. I think the hype and supposed danger is overblown, given what people will accept with a gasoline car.

That said, I don't care for parking vehicles or keeping fuels inside my garage either. Fuels are kept in a separate shed, outside my house and shop both.

When I built my solar power system, I built it trailer mounted. This was in large part to avoid permits and red tape, but it also kept the heavy amperage wiring and the batteries outside of any of my buildings, even though I used lifepo4, which doesn't burn. Added bonus.

Yep, it's way over hyped. Considering just about every consumer grade and above electronic has lithium bassed batteries and how low the failure rate is, it's nothing I'm too worried about. If and when other battery tech comes to pass it will eventually not even be on the horizon of issues.

 

[Mad Professor]

They actually make container for vehicles now. They had them at the American tow towman show last year.
https://evfirebox.com/
Scroll down the page a bit to see it.
There are high temp blankets, and a variety of chemical extinguisher agents that will work too. Just very expensive to use.

I'm not sure why you would keep a bettery undergoing thermal runaway in side any building, however the hydrogen gas is the least of your worries as far as what they give off. Should be more worried about the fluoride, cyanide, sulfur dioxide, and chloride gasses. The hydrogen will be burned rather quickly the others will kill you without knowing it and from a relatively low concentration.
Since 99% of people don't have any of the expensive chemical agents, removing the heat from the thermal runaway is still the best and most practical method of cooling the battery and depleting the stored energy.

however the hydrogen gas is the least of your worries

How so?




2 Li (s) +2 H2O (l) ------> 2 LiOH (aq)+ H2 (g)

"Should be more worried about the fluoride, cyanide, sulfur dioxide, and chloride gasses."
I've worked with all those too.....except it's fluorine and chlorine gases, the "-ides" of group 7 halogens are ionic salts, non-volatile ionic compounds not gases.

Fluoride ion can be nasty though, it will eat through glass. I used to work with it, cyanuric fluoride. 6-member heterocyclic ring (CNF)3. Although it's a molecular compound it's a source of fluoride ion.

Hydrogen cyanide is a gas. Salts of cyanide will evolve the gas in slightly acidic solutions, pKa ~ 9.

 

[sean donato]

however the hydrogen gas is the least of your worries

How so?

View attachment 1185561


2 Li (s) +2 H2O (l) ------> 2 LiOH (aq)+ H2 (g)

"Should be more worried about the fluoride, cyanide, sulfur dioxide, and chloride gasses."
I've worked with all those too.....except it's fluorine and chlorine gases, the "-ides" of group 7 halogens are ionic salts, non-volatile ionic compounds not gases.

Fluoride ion can be nasty though, it will eat through glass. I used to work with it, cyanuric fluoride. 6-member heterocyclic ring (CNF)3. Although it's a molecular compound it's a source of fluoride ion.

Hydrogen cyanide is a gas. Salts of cyanide will evolve the gas in slightly acidic solutions, pKa ~ 9.

Any fire present will burn the hydrogen off in a matter of seconds, ie no Heidenburg. You're formula would be correct except lithium batteries don't just contain lithium, ie, other reactions would be much more likely to occur then just hydrogen gas.
Ides Ines, whatever. They are more likely to form and much more of a threat to health then any hydrogen from immersion in water.

 

[Mad Professor]

Any fire present will burn the hydrogen off in a matter of seconds, ie no Heidenburg. You're formula would be correct except lithium batteries don't just contain lithium, ie, other reactions would be much more likely to occur then just hydrogen gas.
Ides Ines, whatever. They are more likely to form and much more of a threat to health then any hydrogen from immersion in water.

"other reactions would be much more likely to occur"

Name some.

"They are more likely to form and much more of a threat to health then any hydrogen from immersion in water."

Explain.

I did chemistry research for years making new compounds by new reactions, and proving their structures. Part of the work was identifying and quantifying side products.