Help with OWB, is my pump right?

[Oxford]

Here's the first and most important thing to figure out: why is your exchanger outlet so much cooler than your boiler inlet? If you truly only have one circuit (out to the exchanger and back to the boiler) then if there is flow what you are reporting is an impossibility. That leaves two possibilities: either your measurement is wrong (bad thermometer, bad operator of same) or you have no or very little flow, which allows the ambient conditions in the box to fool whatever Dollar Store thermometers are in there. My money is on no or very low flow, brought about by a fouled exchanger, which was caused by long running at high temperatures and low velocities. In any heat exchanger, I have always been taught that the most likely place for fouling to occur is the highest temperature, lowest velocity point, which in your case is your 1 1/4 connection HX on a 1" line.

You can prove this with an amp clamp by measuring current draw of the circulator and comparing it to full load amps on the motor. If you do this, I will bet the donut against the hole that you are well under the FLA.

If you don't have a clamp, isolate the heat exchanger, break the discharge connection, and then open the inlet valve and run the discharge in a bucket. When you do this, measure the rate at which the bucket fills and compare it to what it should be flowing- which if I recall is about 8 gpm. Watch the thermometers when you do this, because if you establish flow they should start moving the right direction.

Good luck.

 

[Timbercreek]

Ok, so the gauges are just clipon, they only touch the pipe on one little contact point and there is no thermal paste.
I forgot the flat black paint trick.
And i really think the gauges at the owb are either being artificially increased by ambient air temps, Or their close proximity to 85gallons of 170 degree water. The return is 4" from the boiler and only 6" of brass pipe. The outgoing is 2" from tank. So thermal transfer from the boiler itself is a option.

*****However. The exchanger being fouled is a possibility. As i said before, the ex husband repod the central boiler, by just cutting it free at its pad.
The house was heated for a winter on Oil without a wood boiler present, and the plate exchanger was being heated by the oil loop. Could have boiled it dry on wood side, made a c

 

[NSMaple1]

I'm not familiar with clip ons but if you can get the sensor thingie against the pipe then tie a wrap of pipe insulation around it, it should improve accuracy.

 

[Timbercreek]

Its a clip on pipe thermometer. It has a small brass contact, and the stainless gauge body has a slight concave 2 it to cradle the pipe and theres a spring that wraps around the pipe to secure it.
Its not crazy accurate or scientific, its just for observation.
I will do the paint trick with ir thermometer tommorow.

So how about if i explain to you guys my take:
Lets disregard the numbers as 4 seperate values, as the 2 data sets seam varied between boiler and basement.
Lets look at the spread of the 2 gauges in the same locations.
OWB gauges say 66-60c thats a 6 degree spread
Heatx wood side says 48-42c. Thats a 6 degree spread. So the spread between source and return is 6 degrees.
I personally think the gauges in basement are wrong, as they dont match the gauge in the oil furnace.
It is saying 10 degrees warmer then The clipons, but still only 120degree water.
Could my aquastat be bad on the boiler? The factory thermo is on front, aquastat and clipons on rear. Whos to say my aquastat is running the wrong parameters?
Its set to go off at 185 and maintain a 5 degree differential, but it dont. It maintains a 25 degree differential
Fan on 160f fan off 180, and 180 on the gauge is rare. If its supoosed to kill at 185 i should see 185 or better as the fire banks​

 

[Timbercreek]

I need that high heat. Boiler seems to idle alot.
Boiler shouldnt be able to idle if the house is still cold.
Short periods till it cools it down yes, but not as long as it does.
Debating bending the tang on the aquastat and running her up to where 190 should be

 

[Oxford]

One more try:

Your boiler is idling because it doesn't have a call for heat. There is no call for heat because there is no heat transfer at your heat exchanger. There is no heat transfer because there is no fluid flow. There is no fluid flow because either your exchanger is fouled or you don't have enough pump. You can try to think up all the fairy dust explanations you like, but until you address these basics, your oil burner better be running.

Now I'm done.

 

[NSMaple1]

I need that high heat. Boiler seems to idle alot.
Boiler shouldnt be able to idle if the house is still cold.
Short periods till it cools it down yes, but not as long as it does.
Debating bending the tang on the aquastat and running her up to where 190 should be

You're going backwards there. If the boiler is idling a lot now, that means not enough heat is being taken away, so turning it up even more will mean more heat being made with no more being taken away.

I don't think we can help much more here without temp data that is known to be good, and consistent. You should be seeing a 20° temp difference (ballpark) across each side of your heat exchanger. Not a 6 degree spread. Actually, 20° is a good temp difference to shoot for across everything - heat exchangers and boiler. And you should only see a couple degrees difference between each end of each underground pipe.

You mentioned earlier on about bypassing the heat exchanger. How did you do that? If you can bypass it for a bit with the new pump in place, you should only see a couple of degrees drop between the boiler supply & the house, then that much again between the house & the boiler return, once flow gets established & temps settle in. If you see big differences, you still aren't pumping enough. Then if you bring the HX back into the circuit, but do not pump through the oil side, and let things stablize again, you should again not see much temp drop there either. If you do, the wood side of the HX is getting plugged up. But again, good temp data is needed - it should be easy to find where the issue is, you just need to be methodical & get good consistent temp data & not get sidetracked to chasing other possibilities. One thing at a time.

 

[Oxford]

You're going backwards there. If the boiler is idling a lot now, that means not enough heat is being taken away, so turning it up even more will mean more heat being made with no more being taken away.

I don't think we can help much more here without temp data that is known to be good, and consistent. You should be seeing a 20° temp difference (ballpark) across each side of your heat exchanger. Not a 6 degree spread. Actually, 20° is a good temp difference to shoot for across everything - heat exchangers and boiler. And you should only see a couple degrees difference between each end of each underground pipe.

You mentioned earlier on about bypassing the heat exchanger. How did you do that? If you can bypass it for a bit with the new pump in place, you should only see a couple of degrees drop between the boiler supply & the house, then that much again between the house & the boiler return, once flow gets established & temps settle in. If you see big differences, you still aren't pumping enough. Then if you bring the HX back into the circuit, but do not pump through the oil side, and let things stablize again, you should again not see much temp drop there either. If you do, the wood side of the HX is getting plugged up. But again, good temp data is needed - it should be easy to find where the issue is, you just need to be methodical & get good consistent temp data & not get sidetracked to chasing other possibilities. One thing at a time.

@NSMaple1 , that is all good advice. I will bet you the aforementioned doughnut that the OP takes exactly none of it. I don't think we're dealing with a listener here. More of a "What's My Problem? Let me tell you what my problem is." situation. Why do people ask for advice when they have no intention of taking any of it? More importantly, why do I get involved?

 

[Timbercreek]

Actually you guys have been great working with me on this.
However, how can you say the heat exchagers not working when last night at the exchanger owb in was 40, and oil loop out was 40? That sounds like a perfect exchange to me and shouldnt be happeneing.(owb had been allowed to go low on wood)

What im trying to say is that everything is working, my water just isnt hot enough for the baseboard to work properly.
Baseboard in the house wants 180 degree water. Only seeing 120. So the baseboard cant heat the house to 60. Not enough differential.
I can hear the water flowing in the owb circuit in the house, def have flow.
I need more heat. Im saying, temps wrong, line compromised,or not enough pump.
6 degree spread out vs in says i have enough pump.
I am going to bend the tang today and go up a few degrees. Need it anyway, its howling wind and cold out there.
Will bring flat black paint, get u guys good ir numbers and house temp today.
Oil burner struggles to heat this house too. Spray foam guys showed up at 730, turned oil on. Ran till 1130 when new pump showed up, only got to 50, but foam guys had windows and doors cracked for

 

[Timbercreek]

Think my aquastat is junk. Turned it up 5 degrees, got 10 on rear bboiler gauges and 10 in the oil furnace.
Front of boiler still showing 170, went up 5 more on aquastat so 190 by its numbers and noticed copper probe wire touching side of its inlet pipe. Moved it clear, aee what we get. House is 56

 

[Oxford]

You've been jacking with this thing for days, thrown parts at it, gotten a metric ton of good advice none of which you've taken, and you don't know one iota more than you did when you started. You're still cold, because you won't listen.

Try this: Get a thermometer and a measuring cup, pan, or bucket.. Drain some water from the boiler into the cup, pan, or bucket. Measure the temperature. Start there.

 

[Oxford]

And, all that six degrees says is that you're not transferring much heat. If your flow is eight gpm, you're transferring about 24000 BTU/hr. It is less than 8, I'll bet, so it's less than 24k. Not going to warm up on a cold day with that.

 

[Timbercreek]

Hey oxford, working on your temps with a teacup, but my.electric thermometer says its outta range. Gotta go buy a plain jane mercury one.

Anyhow,
Your going to.kill me, but i think my plumber did the oil furnace side of things backwards. Hes taking the hottest water i have, output side of oil furnace, input side to baseboard loops, running it through heat exchanger, and dumping it in on the return side of oil furnace, where it mixes with the cold water returning from baseboard loops.

 

[Timbercreek]

Alright heres your data, same thermometer, same amount of water sampled, left in till gauge started falling, recorded highest temp:
Owb source: 142f
Wood Heatx in 140f
Wood Heat x out 138-139 little high on 138, not sure if we made.it to 9 or not
Oil side x in 122f
Oil side out 128f
And i have reversed his pump, so the heat x isnt working in a proper x, its side by side linear. Oil in is same end of x as wood in.

 

[Timbercreek]

I dont have a boiler drain to get u owb return, sorry.

 

[hanniedog]

After reading this thread i am sure glad i have a Harmon inside wood boiler that is hooked directly to my propane boiler. No heat exchanger to worry about. The wood unit is running at 180 now while feeding the house loops.

 

[Timbercreek]

Oil side of heat x, currently 138f in 145f out
Wood side in 152f
Out 132f
Owb struggling to reach 170 today, havent seen much idling. Going full bore now.

 

[Timbercreek]

This thread proves it sucks to inherit someone elses headache.
Gone miles in the right direction.

Oxford, am i right in my thinking about the heat exchanger loop?
It doesnt make sense to me to take my hottest water, mix it with cold, then pull from the hot mix to do it again. Reversing the pump takes my coldest water, heats it, then dumps the hottest water where i need it, zone source side of things.

 

[NSMaple1]

This thread proves it sucks to inherit someone elses headache.
Gone miles in the right direction.

Oxford, am i right in my thinking about the heat exchanger loop?
It doesnt make sense to me to take my hottest water, mix it with cold, then pull from the hot mix to do it again. Reversing the pump takes my coldest water, heats it, then dumps the hottest water where i need it, zone source side of things.

Are you sure that's what it's doing? Because all the temps posted going in the oil side of the HX, have been cold. Until the last ones you posted in post 57, after you switched the pump. You should be sending the coolest oil boiler water to the inlet of the HX, yes. And you should also have cross flows across the sides of your HX.

The temps posted in post 57 show a 20 spread on the wood side. That seems good. Also shows 7 spread across the oil side. That means flows on boths sides aren't matched, the oil side is pumping faster than the wood side. Which could be from the wood side pumping too slow. But there is still something goofy in those numbers because the OWB out should not be less than the oil side in, and it is by 6°. That is impossible - OWB out cannot go lower than oil in.

Your OWB temps posted have also been all over the map. Said in several place to be 170, or 180. And also said to be a lot less than that, in several places. If the guage on the boiler is towards the top, and it says 170/180, and the boiler is idling, but you are not getting hot enough water going into the HX, then that also indicates not enough flow through the OWB. The hot water is staying at the top of the boiler. And the aquastat is likely doing what it is supposed to be doing.

 

[Timbercreek]

Well maple your absolutley right.
The latest temps are from boiler drains, 8oz plastic teacup and the same probe style thermometer.
Thinking my.flow idea is right, but now the copper needs to get changed to reset flow to proper x pattern.
Plumbers trying to argue i need the 0010 on the oil loop. Hes full of ****.

The owb factory gauge is on the front above the firebox not to far from flue
The aquastat and all plumbing is on the rear, where the bulk of the water storage is. Aquastats about 2/3rds of the way up.
Boiler drain on owb is near bottom right on the pump line sending water to house.
The water is only 142f here via sampling.
So while flow may be a problem, so is the temp. That water should be 180f.
Whats bothering me is ive got the aquastat up to about a 190f setting since this morning. Havent seen anything better then 170 on front gauge. Makes me think running that aquastat up is putting the heat into range and actually loading the system as it should.
My plan was to ramp that aquastat up till i either get water thats 160/170 at least or until i managed to kick on the 200degree high limit aquastat which is right next to it. Still havent managed that yet.