How much slower is spikeless climbing?

[xtremetrees]

I have 12 years pratical experience working aloft.
Thing is if you got spikeless climbing all day everyday its great. However I may go 3 weeks without any jobs and then its 2 weeks heavy. Its tuff to hold to your guns and be what a C.A. really is and thats a spikeless climber.

The standard is the same internationally.
Its a individual thing as to where or not to be more productive and ie spike. I think those guys that fly buckets and spike indescrimantly are hacks thou they prolly drive a cigereette boat on weekends they dont post to this site, and sleep well because they dont read this info.

The benefits of spikeless:
I think because this restraint of not spikeing trims thou is is self imposed is actually more productive in the long run as a business owner. My customers know I put my heart into thier trees and this is what will keep me afloat.
Its not the wham bam thank ya for the brush never see ya incase of storms type hacks.

I am cultivating long term relationships and over time all my customers will be repeats and referals. These are the measures I judege myself by, as well as what sets me apart from the cigarette boat owners and bucket riders and "I only do removals" tree guys.

I'm sorry I started this thread and just have to suck it up and drive on. I'm not gonna git rich over night I have to accept this and be patient.

Its a very dangerous job we do and i respect any tree guy or gal no matter thier way about it.

Ekka what is this thing your describing its a lock jack?

Edit" woodville please post pics of your cigarette boat.
Treeseer, Right on!

 

[Diesel JD]

Hey, I am not in the business, but from what I have seen around here most tree companies spike trims and takedowns alike. I have the idea that it would be hard to get people to pony up the extra bucks for doing it the less harmful way. Most of our trees around here, at least removals and trims are laurel oaks. they could be climbed without spikes by a good climber in most cases, but then we also have lots of pines and stuff like taht too. Bottom line, right or wrong most folks around here go for teh abrgain basement prices and most companies have plenty of work and want to get done and get on to the next job.

 

[xtremetrees]

Are they hyper-pruning and lion tailing I'm sure they exploit the structure by forceing the tree into an overmature appearance. Hope ya dont get a Hurrican bro. Tree along the coast of Ga are hyper pruned and scheduled removal of sucker growth is comon. Spikeless climbing shouldnt cost more. C.A. should be comparable in pricing to other companies

 

[Fireaxman]

I see similar situations often with large established silver maple too with a very big lean which makes it impossible to me to trim without spiking it.

Erwin, I have yet to see a leaner I cannot climb and prune spikeless, using double rope dynamic technique with an advanced friction hitch like the VT. Set your rope above your target limb, as Ekka suggested. On moderate leaners I actually climb under the lean using my lanyard to hold me close to the trunk so that I can "Walk" up the trunk as I pull myself up the dynamic side of my line. Ekka's suggestion about double crotching to pull you out from intermediate limbs to get over them is good, but I usually just drag myself over any intermediate limbs. Its not that hard. I'm no young buck at 56.

On severe leaners where I cant reach the trunk I just pull myself up the (dynamic, doubled) line, although if I have the benefit of a "Groundie" he can take about 1/2 or more of the effort out of it by pulling on the tail end my rope. I had a man pull me up once with a riding lawnmower without me having to lift a finger, except to advance my friction hitch. Talk about Easy.

Pruning is mostly what I do. Lean does not bother me at all with ropes. In fact, I think ropes are safer on lean than spikes, because I don't have to worry about falling off under the lean (I deliberately climb under the lean).

 

[Koa Man]

If you are climbing palms, then spikeless climbing will be at least 5, maybe even 10 times slower. Even on real trees, it depends on how far apart the branches are. Lots of times I do removals without spikes. I just did one last Wednesday. A small mango tree about 20 ft. tall with a spread of about 40 ft. I cut all the laterals and tops off and all that remained was a 10 ft. trunk which I dropped from the ground.

 

[Jim1NZ]

I am absolutely sick of people saying spikes are faster!!! If you can throwball and footlock well, you will clean up a climber with spikes. The tree will be looked after, access is faster, the climber is able to manurer through the canopy of the tree faster and smoother with out the chance of spiking ones self.

Sure a guy with spikes will be faster on a tree with a nice straight trunk with no branches to climb out on, or around. How can you even call that climbing! Anyone can throw on spikes and get a flipline and do this.

How many of you guys that think spikes are faster learn to climb on spikes?

 

[Jim1NZ]

In New Zealand 95 % of pruning is done spikeless and the 5% that prune with spikes simply cant climb with out them. Only once in my life have i gone up a tree with spikes that was not being removed and it was an emergency.

In regard to the silver maple or what ever with three leaders, how about a double roping system set from the ground, or a traverse set in 2 leaders that allows access to the remaining leader. PICTURE???

 

[OTG BOSTON]

On moderate leaners I actually climb under the lean using my lanyard to hold me close to the trunk

This is where a couple of choker slings could come in handy. Choke them onto the main stem and use them as footholds.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

The only way to settle this discussion about timing is to set up a tree with stations like in the Masters Challenge of the ITCC. Then run people through using spikes, ladders, ropes only, whatever...compare times. In order to be valid though it would take a lot of data.

A test like this isn't really going to be that valid though. Instead of going to one individual station the test would have to incorporate pruning in lots of positions like a typical job. the test parameters wouldn't be that hard to setup though.

 

[squisher]

is this the arboristsite or the spike vs spikeless site

I spiked spars in the bush for five years. I'm good on spikes. Now I work in urban forestry and I'm practicing to become as good on rope. I could definetly spike trims twice as fast as spikeless trim them but I don't. If you cannot do a pruning job spikeless you should refer the customer to someone who can. And if you think this is bad for business then you need to re-evaluate your business and the product that you offer. Taking advantage of the customers ignorance in proper tree care techniques is not right and will come back to bite you.

I constantly hear the c.a. non c.a. argument. It should not take a professional designation to make you do the right thing. If you are educated in the care of trees you should not spike your trims.

Spike trimmers I ask you this would you or do you spike trim your own trees? And if so why?

In a world full of compromise professional arborists should stick to their guns. Just because someone else does or will do something does not make it right.

 

[jmack]

Dude, what kinda pole saw do you own? A Jameson? Ok I admitt a polesaw is effective, but how many do you see on a million dollar tree coutfit rolling?
I'll tell you how many you'll see caused I've pushed um.. None.
You cant keep 4 guys and a grapple bobcat busy with a pole saw ill tell ya that.
Lissen Ive run across two companies out of 312-314 tree companies that employ C.A. The 310 compaiens could care less and are far more profitable.
For example I pushed one train that if it wasn't a 5 to 8 grand day we sat at home.

C.A. isn't respected down south. The clients are not educated, maybe up north where I've seen some C.A.'s come from are making a decent living.

Your technique seems plausable. Your @ 31 feet with no safety, standing on a ladder? I have used 18 feet as re-directs on large spreading crowns in Biltmore Forest in Asheville NC. We dont have trees that big around here where the limbs start at 80 feet. But a polesaw is a must have.

yes big companies use poles, throw bag in first and your tied into from the bottom if not lanyard around trunk on top rungs of ladder

 

[Erwin]

Erwin you got riverbirch in MO that shed 22" limbs? Big trees.

QUOTE]
Treeseer, if you read my post more carefully you will know that I'm talking about a 150 year old silver maple in my backyard. Hope this answers your question. Erwin

 

[matty f]

Great post Squisher.
I second that dude

 

[Jim1NZ]

Im with Tom, set up a masters.

 

[Tree Machine]

Once in the canopy, I believe most guys using spikes only use them a fraction of the time aloft. What I mean by this is if the climber has branches to step on, he generally doesn't spike the branches unnecessarily. At least I'd like to believe this.

The spiker will generally spike through 'crux' zones until he's in a limbed area and then will climb more with the boots in contact with the tree, rather than the spikes spiking in.

Now if you really made an earnest effort to climb spikelessly through those crux zones, probably half would not be all that cruxy, meaning, if you think about it, the actual need for the spikes is really but a fraction of the time.

Every tree is different, but generally speaking, if you can master those moderately technical areas, you will eventually be able to problem-solve the really tough sections efficiently. In fact, the really tough spots become so few that you can generally see from the ground where you might get into a real challenge. This might determine where you set your rope, above that crux area. That's all it takes. A little extra pre-planning and careful inspection, good practices regardless.

With spikes, it is not hard to get around the tree, but you will climb well below your true potential, in my mind. Spikes allow you to maintain your climbing skills at a below-your-best level, and the tree's expense. Additionally, while wearing spikes you have to be careful to not spike the rope and to not spike yourself. For what its worth, wearing spikes adds more weight to your overall system.


Think hard about this question as it will be individually different for each and every one of us: How much of the time aloft do you absolutely need spikes to get past an area? If your skills are such that you TRULY only need the use of the spikes 10% of the time while aloft, you're having to schlepp them with you 90% of the time where they are, for all practical purposes, unused and a hinderence and a safety concern.

When your climbing skills are amped up to the point where very few places are truly crux zones you will figure a way to solve the problem. It will be slower than if you had spikes on, but it is only in these infrequent hotspots that spikes are FASTER than without. For the majority of the time a climber spends in a crown, swiftness and overall efficiency IMHO is faster and safer not using spikes. I've been to both sides.

If you commit to not using spikes on trims it is almost a guarantee that your skills will sharpen above that of having a spike dependence. The price is, you have to work to achieve this. You'll hit places that are a stretch for ya. It's a satisfying feeling when you bust a crux and the next crux becomes easier. New techniques and skills arise and spikes only come out for portions of takedowns.

It's a personal choice unless your boss or company REQUIRES you to climb with spikes. In this case, you may want to re-evaluate your employment situation.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Good post TM.
Really the only hard part of spikeless is ascending to the top. How you get there depends on the type of trees you climb, day in and day out.
Most guys know a few different ways of getting up, but tend to use the same method over and over, and get good at it. The most common I see are ladder, footlock, and SRT.
If you master a good entry technique, climbing around is easier without the spikes, as TM eloquently explained.
Even on removals, if I don't need spikes, I'm not using them.
There is another variable, besides just learning to climb efficiently without spikes, the type of climbing you do. For example, the guys out west, climbing those huge trees, or those guys in the south climbing nothing but pines and palms, what chance do they have to learn spikeless? Plus the years of inbreeding...but that's another thread.
When I hear a guy say spiking is so much faster, I know he has never taken the time to learn, for whatever reason.

 

[xtremetrees]

Yesterday I had a short 60 foot climb. I used improvised and it is much slower than footlocking both ropes. To top it off I left a short 2 inch dead stubb on the back side of the tree and had to go back up. It was 97 degrees and truely I was P.O'ed.
You guys can raazz me all you want but I've been spikeless 12 years.
Im useing 9mm tress cord to foot lock with. It could help out some with mar-bars, I'll get around to buying them.
What I'm dealing with is post contsruction trees, meaning dead crowns... They die from the tops down. The apical buds are dead so the tree starts pulling on dense sucker growth I can barely punch thru.Throw ball that it blows and takes several throws.then you really dont know how dead it is all that sucker growth and binos wont help.
Ill take pics today and show ya what i mean.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

I left a short 2 inch dead stubb on the back side of the tree and had to go back up.

It seems to me that a 2in. stub would be less harmful to the overall health of a tree than hundreds of little spike wounds.

 

[spacemule]

For example, the guys out west, climbing those huge trees, or those guys in the south climbing nothing but pines and palms, what chance do they have to learn spikeless? Plus the years of inbreeding...but that's another thread.

Speaking of inbreeding, check out this goober! :hmm3grin2orange:

maashole

 

[treeseer]

xtreme, the first pic showed very little deadwood. On that I'd sell work on the roots, to stop the dieback, and recommend holding off on crown work until dieback is done (or limbs get to hazard size).

pic 2 limbs were big enough to do damage, so yes it's time to prune. I'd use a ladder to get up into the crown, then push my line ahead through the sprouts with a polesaw if there was no room to fling the snap.

For 20 years in NC I've been doing trees like that, routinely. Never had to spike to get into one, and rarely have to fling. O and I agree with OTG, what is a 2-inch stub in the big scheme of things? Chill, man.:biggrinbounce2: