How much slower is spikeless climbing?

[gitrdun_climbr]

and a fine thought it is. Again circles us back to 'tree care' in the residential setting versus rural line clearance. Most in this forum seem to agree with the difference but there are still a boat-load of climbers in the field spiking anything and everything...and maybe telling the homeowners it aerates it or something.

Honesty and integrity must be earned on an individual basis. While I am a member and a fan of ISA because I feel they guided me into the profession safely and ethically, I've come to the opinion that it's endorsement means little more than someone was exposed to professional material and remains a poor marker-stick with which to measure an individual's honesty and integrity.

MO

 

[clearance]

Honesty and integrity must be earned on an individual basis. While I am a member and a fan of ISA because I feel they guided me into the profession safely and ethically, I've come to the opinion that it's endorsement means little more than someone was exposed to professional material and remains a poor marker-stick with which to measure an individual's honesty and integrity.

MO

How very true, to hear this from an ISA member is great, I have said this many times here, never as politely though. I will add, ISA certification is also a poor measure of competence or common sense, on its own.

 

[trevmcrev]

Just give me an hour or so on putting that together. Then I'll ship it over to Austrailia where Ekka can put it into a .wmv format for windows users who don't have Quicktime or are on dialup.

Thank you for your patience.

Yay I wanna see your vids but never did solve that quicktime problem. I were reading this post thinking i'll miss out on another one but hopefully Ekka comes to the rescue. TM:rockn: 's.

Trev

 

[Tree Machine]

I think Woodville has me talked out of it. I'm neither I spike lover or hater, this thread isn't going to make a bit of difference in the big scheme of things and my little video isn't going to prove anything except blocking firewood off of this particular tree is possible without spikes. As we all know, every tree is different.

We all know that in the Tree Care Industry - not forestry, line clearance, logging, lot clearing, roadside contracts, etc. - Tree care you adopt the role of stewardship to the health and care of trees. You now get paid to do this. You are seen as a professional and you reflect a perception back to the the rest of our profession.

To get sloppy with our ethics or Treeguy safety is to shoot our industry in the foot. We have all adoted our own standards as Treeguys in the US are not held to any standards, even by the ISA. We are unregulated, unlicensed, uncertified and require no formal door to enter this industry. All you need is a chainsaw.

So the standards we set are our own. Clearance and the workers in his industry have their standards set industry-wide. You use spikes whether you want to or not. If you don't want to use spikes, go work in the Tree Care Industry.

Having our tree care behaviors being totally voluntary and free to do whatever way we see fit is very liberating, but really should be viewed as a responsibility. How responsible you are is up to you.

 

[Tree Machine]

OK, here's that tree, the hazards below (metal shed, garage, fence, pole and guy wires, phone cable, primary drops and a transformer. It was a unilateral leaner right over top of the garage, tight drop. The camera shot is from the only possible brush zone.

 

[Tree Machine]

Here's a couple good shots of the lower trunk wound, and a wound's eye view from atop the neighboor's garage.

 

[Tree Machine]

That is a large wound.

It is from a limb tearing off years ago or from a lightning strike?

Someone spiked up it and it killed that stem,


hmm3grin2orange

 

[Tree Machine]

I crowned it all out. The firewood guys got there after the brush was chipped and that's who shot this little SRT crux move where you're coming up under the horizontal limb your rope is over; this takes footlocking up past your ascender by 1 meter from where it would normally be (above you) then you pull the move on the limb; key: keep your hips in tight.

 

[Tree Machine]

Great move TM.

It takes strength and technique to pull that move off. Hip thrusting doesn't work well at all in that situation.

More technique than anything, trusting your boots to keep the rope gripped, so gear and technique, which gives you the confidence to try it, then strength third to pull it off in the crux moment which is a minimal part of the whole move, just a well-placed burst of 'all ya got'. It does get easier with experience

 

[Tree Machine]

OK, here's where I've run out of limbs, I'm cutting into the upper section of the wound site and blocking off firewood pieces. Keep a tight flipline and a tight backup line. Keep them well below where you intend to cut. Lop the piece, work yourself down, lop the next.

To be quite honest, I should have at least been on a ladder, the 395 is pretty hefty to be pulling off a spikeless chunkdown. There was nothing to prove here except that it could be done on this tree. We saved the lower trunk and one area of crown to hide the view of the transformer to one house, so spikes up that section of the trunk would have been bad practice, regardless of whether or not the tree is ultimately hosed.


As far as the crowning out, there were so many limbs, spikes were entirely unneeded. They would have slowed me down. As far as the upper trunk sections, I really only 'needed' spikes for about 6 cuts and in the time it would have taken me to stop, get the spikes sent up (or go down for them), put them on, get set and re-started, I could have already made the 6 cuts, so that's the reasons behind not having worn spikes on this takedown, not that its a long, drawn-out brag, or ethical purity or a bash against spike users; just that it was overall faster without spikes (as well as more comfortable and less hazardous and lighter and cooler).

 

[xtremetrees]

Sweet! Family firends and wow movies!
Look bro youve got how many years expereince TM?

First off let me say that was one holler spot you climbed above.!
I'd say alot of climbers would pass that job by. Rigging on that hollow stuff has got to be smooth, thats why I do it mostly myself. My ropeman has 4 years experience and on a holler spot like that I'd have him stnad back and I would run the rope so its fresh and little movement.

Secondly,that move you made to git on top ROCKED! I made a move almost leaning that much today, If your an arborist or your company is C.A. this should be routein, thou I see very few post to TM's most excellent vids in the last 24 hours. I figure less rather than more are as hardcore as TM.

Thirdly, what was the 395 doing on 12 inch wood. why didnt you verticle snap cut it instead of cutting all the way thru.? I use the snap cut almost exclusively anymore. It holds the piece, I stow my 372 and then snap it off and throw.

I got several jobs comming up TM I'll match your videos here bro.

 

[Tree Machine]

Rigging on that hollow stuff has got to be smooth, thats why I do it mostly myself.

I only rigged two limbs. All the rest were sling, cut, unsling, throw.

Secondly,that move you made to git on top ROCKED!

That's a pretty routine move, the bigger the diameter the harder it is to get up around and over top.

Thirdly, what was the 395 doing on 12 inch wood. why didnt you verticle snap cut it instead of cutting all the way thru.? I use the snap cut almost exclusively anymore. It holds the piece, I stow my 372 and then snap it off and throw.

Snap cut works better on smallerdiameter, or bigger diameter but longer pieces as they're easier to 'tip'. These pieces in the wound zone were super dense with callus. It may have been 12" one dimension, but it was 30 the other. The firewood guys made me rip them in half they were so heavy. When your balls are pasted to the tree, tipping a hefty chunk is way harder than pivoting and sliding it off. Normally I just plow the 395 through and blow straight through like a laser light saber. There's nothing faster. This tree was a leaner and they all had to be pulled and tossed to my back and right.

I hope you have better time with the video than I. It just takes me forever to pump out a few seconds of material. If you guys like it, though, I'll do more stuff in the future.

Not on this thread, though

for it

is

tired

and has run out of

different ways

to say

the

same
thing.

 

[Ryan Cafferky]

Most of our work is on trees in residential areas. I will try and drop anything I can get away with but if I have to climb something I just get my line into the tree and head for the top and get tied in first. Most of the time on larger trees I just put a throwline in the top and head up SRT. I just feel a lot more freedom of movement around the tree if I am tied in at the top. Taking the time to get tied in at the top doesn't slow things down because the ground crew is screwing around with something else or setting up the GRCS.

If its a strip and chunk removal how do you stand on the spar, stand on what, air, or are you leaving bag grabbing stubs all over, that you have to re- limb on the ground?

When I am tied in from above I will just strip off all of the limbs and just leave micro stubs every six feet or just stand on the collars and then launch as big of chunks as I can. If there is any way for me to drop a big log or launch ten foot logs on my way down I will do that rather than chunk. I rarely chunk down a tree. Cutting firewood is the ground crews job. The stubs I typically leave on the tree aren't the ladder rung stubs that most people think they need. I'm a rock climber so I'm used to standing on next to nothing so a 1/4" stub is fine for me to stand on.

I do removals in a way that works for me and my crew but I analyze every job and figure the most efficient way to do it. If I show up and I see that I can do something faster with spurs I will. The less I climb with them the more I realize how little I do need them.

 

[Tree Machine]

I'm word for word with you on all that, Ryan, except usually I'll block it out from above. The power-ported 346 and a razor-sharp chain is super effective in knocking off firewood length blocks and flushing off the collars. If it is faster, or safer to do it on the ground, then yea, let the big limbs fly. I enjoy bucking up firewood on the ground. I just enjoy it a little more in the air!

 

[SRT-Tech]

I'm a little reluctant to post this question here, please note i'm NOT taking sides, nor am i questioning my employer about pros and cons of spurs VS spurless...ok, that out of the way, here goes:

i'm trained in SRT techniques, high angle rope work and rescue, and building/bridge rappelling and ascension. Thats my background, over 5000 hours of "On Rope" time, lots of hours of theory and practice......i got no prob rigging the Jumars/foot straps for climbing up a rope......

...now at my job, the climber uses Spurs/FlipLine. Nothing else. Trimming, removal, spiral thinning etc. All on Spurs. I asked the boss why they dont use a throwline or a climbing/rigging rope or slings/pulleys, and SRT climbing techniques. His answer "takes too long to rig, you spend all your day rigging and not removing or trimming".

i dont want to throw gas on the spur VS spurless debate, but is this kind of answer to my question encountered a lot? I mean it does'nt take that much longer to setup spurless......

having said that, after trying out the spurs/flipline i definitely like them for the simplicity of use....lol...but there is room i feel for both....

i ask the question though, because there seems to be some major hate for crews that climb with spurs, from what i have seen locally....

sigh

 

[clearance]

Hi SRT, I'm a CUA, used to live in the GVRD, now up in the Charlottes. I climb with spurs, never have spurless climbed, I know guys who are ISA that climb with spurs as well. Thats pretty well the way it is, the growing season is long on the coast, despite all the talk, I have yet to see a tree die from being spurred. Years back I took the course to be a CUA, we were in a park in Surrey, Green Timbers, the whole class spurred up trees, the year before and again, I mean spurred these trees up good, pincushions, still there, still green. Tells me the score. When I came to this site, I talked about what I know, utility work, the slagging and name calling has never stopped because I spur. Don't really care, anyways, there are spurless climbers in the GVRD, they are special people, especially compared to utility guys, bow down to them. If you are really into doing the "right" thing and want an easy, d.f. job then look to the City of Van. and the City of Surrey. They are arborists, some can actually climb even.

 

[SRT-Tech]

hahaha, thanks for the reply!

i'm actually pretty happy where i am right now.

part of the reason i signed on was because i enjoy high angle work and i really enjoy solving rigging problems, especially with redirecting where stuff lands.......but since i started working there, the amount of rigging has been about 1%......

but hey thats what my weekends are now for..... :yoyo:

 

[Tree Machine]

Hey SRT, this is a most appropriate place for your questions. I too try not to fuel this debate, though for me there is no debate; use spikes where they are appropriate (for me, takedowns, that's it.).

Up where Clearance is ya got big ol honkin, thick-barked trees, spikes probably never hit the cambium. In the southern US, northern New Zealand, all over Australia, Hawaii you have palms and it seems to be normal operating procedure. Even pines seem to do OK, Cedars same.

But limb-laden hardwoods, all I can say is, 'Why?" Just from the few words from your boss I can sense he's never fired a bigshot, never climbed a 1:1 system, probably doesn't enjoy climbing to begin with and the message that come through from that is "Screw the tree. git up there, git 'er done, make me some money." He's old school and you're not going to change him. He THINKS the way you're doing it is faster, but does he even own a pair of ascenders? When your answer to all this is "takes too long to rig, you spend all your day rigging and not removing or trimming" is he confusing rigging with rope setting? Is he having you do your cutting off of just the flipline, or does he encourage you to be on a lifeline and sink a flipline to fine position and then make the cut?

"takes too long to rig, you spend all your day rigging and not removing or trimming" is a line that comes from someone who simply doesn't know. This is called ignorance when you don't have a clue.

Spikes have their place, but justifying them in places where they are used but not needed, that's just inherently questionable.

It used to be 'the right way' to do things are ways that we now see as really screwed up. We used to put women on trial by dunking them under water for long periods to see if they were witches. Leeches to remove blood from ya, anti-nausea meds that made little monster babies. Vegetable oil can not be used as a bar lube. Remember the era where doctors actually endorsed smoking cigarettes? Topping tree was once fashionable, as was flush-cutting trim limbs. We can go on and on and on with revisiting our prior beliefs, looking at how silly we were for thinking 'that'.


The reason there is 'hate' for local crews that spike is that the other crews have stepped up their methods. Spike crews are stuck in time, unwilling to change. Such is the human animal. SRT Tech, this is a time for you to effect change. With your aerial skills (and the right tools) you can amaze your boss without using spikes. I'd really like for him to see that. If he's inflexible, just because it has to be done 'his way' then I have to ask, what would it take to get you here to Indianapolis? Your skills are recognized here.

 

[boo]

Well said TM, just as all posts I have read from you.
I thank you for your teachings.
I've been in the tree biz for over 12 years on my own, and have learned just as much in the last 3 or 4 years visiting this site. Thank you to many others of this site also.
Teaching someone something valuable, that they can use every day will certainly get their attention, and make them listen closer to what you say.
Easier to teach after that..... you have my attention.

I think our most valuable tool is our ability to reason.

 

[woodville]

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :