How to pull over trees?

[a_lopa]

Originally posted by netree
That's easy... when the saw is just starting to pinch.

LOL


(I disagree with a center-bore; make the hinge thinner instead.)

exactly,you dont need to bore with a high set rope,just chase the holding wood .boring isnt going to help the saftey factor at all

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by xtremetrees
I find Murphy that a little 2 inch strip of holding wood on your back cut is substaintial amount of holding wood for even the largest trees.

If you have a 4X4 and want to lay the tree down and you got enuff pull you can just back cut it with no notch. Be warned alot of splitting will occur. This is a good technique for saving say concret driveways and the trees arent to tall. Just stand to the side of the splitting wood.Cut-pull, stand back cut pull. you dont want bounce in your pull a strong bull rope reduce this.Cut until it starts peeling cut a bit more then just stand back.

I'd say if your pulling a tree and cutting into the back with no notch that youll have to cut 3/4 way thru for it start cracking.

And where's your directional control?

 

[NebClimber]

I plan to use a wire cable with 22,000 # tensile strength. Is there any reason to ever need something stronger than this when it comes to tree pulling?

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by NebClimber
I plan to use a wire cable with 22,000 # tensile strength. Is there any reason to ever need something stronger than this when it comes to tree pulling?

Heck, that's more than I ever use. I prefer rope because you can pre-load it and it will absorb some shock, like between clicks of the come-along or pull of 4x4/tractor, etc.

 

[NeTree]

Not to mention it's easier to use...

 

[Newfie]

Originally posted by netree
But not everybody can fit a tractor in the sidebox, Butch.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Stumper]

I'll agree with the 2 inch hinge thickness part of Xtreme's advice but pass on the other 'techniques'he espoused.
With due respect to Dan'l. Center boring a hinge is a log-butt integrity preservation technique--period. It offers no safety benefits in the actual felling of the tree. ( It is disadvantageous in fact.)

 

[ORclimber]

Originally posted by netree
I prefer rope because you can pre-load it and it will absorb

Arborplex is great for that. Love to see the preloaded stretch pull the trees over.

 

[glens]

The only time I ever do any falling is when I've been drinking, but I don't have a problem with that.  Sometimes the trees I'm working do some falling because I've felled them.  I don't know how I could possibly fall a tree unless I was a tree before I fell.

Steven,

To the advice to "tension, cut; tension, cut; <font face="fixed">...</font>" add "drive felling wedge" so that you end up with "tension, cut, drive wedge; cut; cut; drive wedge; tension (if necessary -- more likely "take up slack"); <font face="fixed">...</font>"

You want the wedge(s) in the back cut in case the tag line fails and/or to avoid the tag line causing the tree to fail (and you may find you don't even really use the line).

I would especially caution against pulling the line too hard, too early, too.&nbsp; It should only be a guiding/holding/assisting force, not the primary motive one.&nbsp; It would truly suck to induce a barber chair with too much pull and too much hinge.&nbsp; If you can't lift the tree with the wedge(s), assist it(them) with the rope.

Glen

 

[Gord]

Good advice all around except for that guy who likes barberchairs. I would add that it's essential to pull directly opposite the lean unless the off-direct pull can be compensated with another line or tapered hinge. For the most acute leaners setting a redirect block an appropriate distance above the ground makes for a much easier pull and greatly reduced strain on the hinge.

 

[murphy4trees]

to stumper

Dan'l. Center boring a hinge is a log-butt integrity preservation technique--period. It offers no safety benefits in the actual felling of the tree. ( It is disadvantageous in fact.)

Hi Stumper,
You know I have a lot of respect for your opinions and will always think twice upon hearing your critiques.... You've added some important pieces to the conversation that greatly supported my theory of why the tapered hinge works so well etc...

So please don;t take this the wrong way... Your statement above may be true, and please note that when I mentioned the center plunge, I did not make a firm recommendation, just said "you might consider" it.
I personally have little experience with the center plunge and the subject has come up BIG TIME becasue I used one on the cover pic for July TCI mag...

The only reason I used one there is cause Big Jon recommended it. If I've learned anything over the past year in this business, I've learned to NOT ARGUE WITH BIG JON... We later discussed the reasoning behind the center plunge for this specific tree....

I happen to agree with the thinking that removing fibers from the center of the hinge on backleaners makes it easier to pull against the back lean without sacraficing hinge strength much. At wort it is a good trade-off IMJ....

Now you make the above statement as though you know this to be a fact... I make a clear distinction in that I don't claim to know the facts, just have an opinion based on common sense and some field observations...

I believe there is know science to support your claim... And therfore would caution anyone here from believing your statement as fact...... And you probably have more experience than me with center plunging back leaners, so I Am intersted in hearing about your experience and in depth thinking on the matter. If there is science to back up your statement, please site it...
Thanks

 

[NeTree]

Real simple.

A 1" hinge will bend easier than a 2" hinge bored because there's disproportionately less tension fiber in the 1" hinge.

 

[murphy4trees]

OK that's what you say... now where is the science to prove it?

THERE IS NONE!

please note: I AM not saying you're wrong... just that ther is no science, so it's an opinion based on experience, but not a fact....

 

[NeTree]

Actually Daniel, you can measure it for yourself. All you need is a couple of short green logs, a tension scale, and a solid place to anchor both.

There's my science.

 

[Gypo Logger]

When in a precarious situation, such as when falling lock stock and barrel when the tree is near structures etc., it takes a whole lot of nerve. The trick is to implistly trust your holding wood.
Now lets say for example a relatively straight tree sets back on the backcut. If the holding wood is only 10% or less of the total stump area, it will not fall in that direction unless subject to high winds.
Case in point: Today I was falling a 38" dbh Rock Maple that had a slight lean towards an adjacent property (open feild).
To help commit the tree over, I backed the log skidder up to the tree, climbed on the log arch, which put me 13ft. above the ground. From this position I tried to lassoo the trunk with a 10' choker, but could not get it around. So I had to choke it at only 5' above the ground.
Having done this, I drove the skidder ahead 125' under the intended direction of fall and locked the brake drum with the cable being very taught. Then I proceeded to place all the cut. Having done that I climbed on the skidder and applied 30,000# of pull. I couldn't see the tree move, but it did lift the front end of the skidder 3 ft. off the ground which weights 16,900#.
To get out of this one, I had to release the cable, which caused the tree to set back until the backcut closed.
So at this point, I had two options. I could back against the tree with the log arch of the skidder and push it over, or relocate the cable on the trunk and choke it higher, which is what I did with the help of a long stick, so the tree was choked about 7' above ground now. After repeating the winching procedure, the tree simply fell in the intended direction. The tree weighed about 18,000 lbs. I have repeated this many times in the woods over the years and have never had a tree get away on me- knock on wood.
My point to this big long disertation is two things:
1: The strength of holdingwood.
2: The mechanical advantage of leverage.
John

 

[murphy4trees]

make it so

NE:

All you need is a couple of short green logs, a tension scale, and a solid place to anchor both.

That's not science... it's a sentence.... make it happen and report back to us with the data... then it'll be science...

again I'm not saying you're wrong and I'd really like to know what works here... our industry is waiting Eric... please hurry!

 

[NeTree]

 

[John Stewart]

Yikes Gypo
It worries me when guy's like yourself tell stories like that cause you never know who is listen!
Let me elaberate
1) You have a skidder not a 4x4 or Bobcat
2) You had a open feild not a lawn with a house beside it
3) You had cable not a old climbin line out of the shed
These are thoughts that go thru peoples heads when they read post like yours!
Later
John

 

[Stumper]

Daniel, The science goes back to our previous discussions about neutral planes, tension/compression and the way wood breaks. As I stated then-science/physics reveals that doubling thickness increases strength(resistance to bending) by a factor of 8. Doubling width increases strength by a factor of 2. If you bore out half of the width of the hige you can only make it fractionally thicker to have the same strength. However, thicker wood can bend less distance before breaking (a greater distance from the neutral plane means the outermost tension fibers are strecthed a greater distance for a given degree of arc and consequently rupture at less arc than a thin piece of the same wood). In another thread you mentioned thicker hinge straps resisting twisting better. I will grant that may be true. I have never experienced a twisting failure of a balanced hinge (or reasonable tapered hinge) when felling a tree. (On lateral branches in weak wooded trees trying to make a sideways swing, yes.) I do not dispute that centerbored hinges have performed well for many pros but do not believe that they can be shown to be superior from a control standpoint when the existing science is taken into account. They do save salable timber. A noble purpose.:angel:

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi John, thats very true! If I was doing that for the first time, I guess my knees would be knocking. lol
I guess sometimes things can sound like, "just another day at the beech", but it is pretty dangerous all in all, if we don't think ahead.
For the mathematicaly minded here is a question: If a 90' tree weighing 18,000 lbs requires 30,000 pounds of pull to commit it over when choked at 6' above the ground, how many # would be required at 30'. I know this is a hypothetical question, so appoximations may be valuable as a rule of thumb.Hinge thinkness and hardness of wood obviously is a factor, as is lean, but would 4000# be in the ballpark?
John