How to start an argument? Future of gas powered saws ?

[HumBurner]

For the homeowner who doesn't heat with wood, the gas saw is already dead.

It's amazing how many people here in Humboldt BUY firewood every year. And I'm not just talking about all my little old lady/man clients who can't reliably run a saw anymore. Lazy young people with teenaged kids, etc....

There's no shortage of seasoned wood everywhere or shortage of thinning needed to secure cords a year for life

 

[Pioneer]

For the homeowner who only uses a saw a few times a year, electric is the way to go. No worries about the carb plugging up, no worries about tuning, no worries about mixing gas and oil.
Push the button and you're ready to go, only the most basic things to take care of, keeping the oil level up and the battery charged. The typical homeowner usually only uses it for pruning and small jobs, even the chain will probably go a long time before it needs sharpening.
Way more convenient than a gas chainsaw, and yes some models do have a good power to weight ratio similar to the smaller gas ones, not that it matters much to the average homeowner.

 

[OM617YOTA]

It's amazing how many people here in Humboldt BUY firewood every year. And I'm not just talking about all my little old lady/man clients who can't reliably run a saw anymore. Lazy young people with teenaged kids, etc....

There's no shortage of seasoned wood everywhere or shortage of thinning needed to secure cords a year for life

As long as they're not letting their babies go cold, I'm not judging how they heat their homes.

Depending on wood prices, they may be $$$$ ahead earning the money and buying wood vs. spending the same hours harvesting their own wood. I have health issues that aren't obvious if you just look at me, but they hugely limit my physically functional time. I don't burn much wood, but I'm not far from just buying wood either, and there are plenty of others like me. Can't tell a person's situation just by looking at them.

If you know them well and they're just lazy, that's a different story.

 

[jellyroll]

My dad is up in age and doesn't use a gas saw anymore he heats with wood and uses a dewalt battery saw and a corded remington chainsaw to cut all his wood.
He just doesn't have the strength to pull the cord anymore he does enjoy the battery and electric saws.

 

[thompsoncustom]

Except they're not twice as fast.

closer to 3x as fast?

 

[HumBurner]

closer to 3x as fast?

Nope

 

[thompsoncustom]

I've only been around one electric saw, talked to a guy when I was out cutting that had a Dewalt was kind of neat that it wasn't making much noise and he said he only used it for camping firewood. I will say that my poulan wild thing will cut twice as fast tho but I could see them having a place.

 

[cujet]

Some things that may not be known.

1) Batteries can "dump" power into a motor fast. This is absolutely fantastic for situations where rapid power is needed. One need only look at the better quality Lithium jump starters that can crank a big Diesel stupidly fast for 10 seconds to understand this.

2) There won't be significantly more powerful batteries. Lithium is king of the active metals on the periodic chart, and only contains "just so many" ions to move.

3) The Solid State batteries are 1/3 more energy dense, as they simply eliminated the anode. That's it, no magic. 1/3 smaller/lighter. There are downsides and SS batteries may not ever make it to chainsaws.

4) Charging won't ever be instant. But battery swaps are a great method for tools.

5) One really big battery can quickly charge a smaller battery. Example, a 300KWh battery can charge an EV's 80KWh battery at the highest acceptable rate. A tow truck carrying a big battery could zap a dead Tesla Model 3 a whole bunch faster than any portable generator. The Model 3 can accept 250,000 watts of power during initial charge. Not so easy to tote around a 1/4 million watt generator.

 

[HumBurner]

I've only been around one electric saw, talked to a guy when I was out cutting that had a Dewalt was kind of neat that it wasn't making much noise and he said he only used it for camping firewood. I will say that my poulan wild thing will cut twice as fast tho but I could see them having a place.

So, you've SEEN one battery saw out of the plethora of battery saws out there. And thats what you're basing your opinion on.

Do I have that correct?

 

[thompsoncustom]

So, you've SEEN one battery saw out of the plethora of battery saws out there. And thats what you're basing your opinion on.

Do I have that correct?

absolutely, and the battery could have been dead for all I know. never had one of my own to due a fair side by side comparison.

 

[NSEric]

It's amazing how many people here in Humboldt BUY firewood every year. And I'm not just talking about all my little old lady/man clients who can't reliably run a saw anymore. Lazy young people with teenaged kids, etc....

There's no shortage of seasoned wood everywhere or shortage of thinning needed to secure cords a year for life

I bought all my fire wood from my dad or neighbor up until about 10 years ago.
At the time with the job I had, I didnt have much spare time and I could work for one weekend and buy my entire years worth of wood with the OT from it.
I'm only working 40 hours a week now so I have time for cutting my own firewood.

 

[HumBurner]

absolutely, and the battery could have been dead for all I know. never had one of my own to due a fair side by side comparison.

Great.


Try some of them before commenting on how slow you think they are. Make sure the battery isn't nearly dead. Sharp chain and correct depths are a must for these little saws.

 

[johnny first]

Gas saw will always be gas I hope stay safe have a good day

 

[gnef]

Some things that may not be known.

1) Batteries can "dump" power into a motor fast. This is absolutely fantastic for situations where rapid power is needed. One need only look at the better quality Lithium jump starters that can crank a big Diesel stupidly fast for 10 seconds to understand this.

2) There won't be significantly more powerful batteries. Lithium is king of the active metals on the periodic chart, and only contains "just so many" ions to move.

3) The Solid State batteries are 1/3 more energy dense, as they simply eliminated the anode. That's it, no magic. 1/3 smaller/lighter. There are downsides and SS batteries may not ever make it to chainsaws.

4) Charging won't ever be instant. But battery swaps are a great method for tools.

5) One really big battery can quickly charge a smaller battery. Example, a 300KWh battery can charge an EV's 80KWh battery at the highest acceptable rate. A tow truck carrying a big battery could zap a dead Tesla Model 3 a whole bunch faster than any portable generator. The Model 3 can accept 250,000 watts of power during initial charge. Not so easy to tote around a 1/4 million watt generator.

number 3 is the most interesting to me based on recent articles I've seen on solid state batteries. This is still an area of battery development I think we'll see more advances in. If there is a potential market for it, I could see a backpack battery version for larger electric chainsaws with a whip that connects them. I know Stihl already has a battery backpack for some of their other tools, so it wouldn't be that big of a step, in my mind. I don't know how big the market is for that though.

 

[user 172857]

number 3 is the most interesting to me based on recent articles I've seen on solid state batteries. This is still an area of battery development I think we'll see more advances in. If there is a potential market for it, I could see a backpack battery version for larger electric chainsaws with a whip that connects them. I know Stihl already has a battery backpack for some of their other tools, so it wouldn't be that big of a step, in my mind. I don't know how big the market is for that though.

I believe Stihl’s backpack battery weighs in at about 25 lbs. that, along with the weight of a larger battery saw doesn’t seem like an advantage, maybe a necessity, but who wants that... especially dealing with large trees ?

 

[gnef]

I believe Stihl’s backpack battery weighs in at about 25 lbs. that, along with the weight of a larger battery saw doesn’t seem like an advantage, maybe a necessity, but who wants that... especially dealing with large trees ?

That's true. I'm thinking more about the possibility of a solid state battery that has more energy per kilogram, so they could potentially be lighter with more energy.

I also think that even if it stayed at 25 lbs on your back, that would be easier to manage than trying to hand hold that much. I could potentially see a saw with a large-ish motor on it that isn't actually too heavy to hold if the batteries are on the back. I could even see there being compartments for a quart of bar oil, and maybe even an electric sharpener that runs off the batteries (something the size of the granberg unit that clamps on the bar).

I guess what I'm really thinking about are the questions about size and more powerful gas chainsaw replacements, as handheld weight seems to be the biggest wall preventing the potential development of these larger electric replacements. If we could shift the weight to the back, I think that could open up a whole bunch of possibilities and options for us in the future.

 

[Piotr Pakuła]

you can always carry batteries in a wheelbarrow ;-) instead of carrying them on your back

 

[Breckinridge Elkins]

It's amazing how many people here in Humboldt BUY firewood every year. And I'm not just talking about all my little old lady/man clients who can't reliably run a saw anymore. Lazy young people with teenaged kids, etc....

There's no shortage of seasoned wood everywhere or shortage of thinning needed to secure cords a year for life

My sister's family lived in SoHum where they bought wood. Or maybe I should say they traded for it. I think a SoHum resident will know what I mean. Sister's husband isn't afraid of work like cutting and splitting wood. He certainly isn't lazy. I think for a guy like him there are just so many hours in a day, so it made more sense to buy or trade. Now they are above Arcata and they have an LPG furnace. Their lot wouldn't accomodate a big wood pile. They don't own a truck, etc. The move from wood to gas heat was an easy choice.

Now speaking of people who are getting too old for that kind of work, my dad suprised me the other day. Out of the blue he texted me asking for help getting his saw running. I gave him a few ideas and he said he got it running, thanks. He didn't tell me the second part, which was him going out alone to cut a 1/4 cord, splitting and stacking it himself. Dad is no wimp but he is 67 this year and his body is busted up from 50 years in construction. Ticker is not so good.

Some things that may not be known.

1) Batteries can "dump" power into a motor fast. This is absolutely fantastic for situations where rapid power is needed. One need only look at the better quality Lithium jump starters that can crank a big Diesel stupidly fast for 10 seconds to understand this.

2) There won't be significantly more powerful batteries. Lithium is king of the active metals on the periodic chart, and only contains "just so many" ions to move.

3) The Solid State batteries are 1/3 more energy dense, as they simply eliminated the anode. That's it, no magic. 1/3 smaller/lighter. There are downsides and SS batteries may not ever make it to chainsaws.

4) Charging won't ever be instant. But battery swaps are a great method for tools.

5) One really big battery can quickly charge a smaller battery. Example, a 300KWh battery can charge an EV's 80KWh battery at the highest acceptable rate. A tow truck carrying a big battery could zap a dead Tesla Model 3 a whole bunch faster than any portable generator. The Model 3 can accept 250,000 watts of power during initial charge. Not so easy to tote around a 1/4 million watt generator.

Really interesting stuff. I think you are right about the batteries being an essentially "mature" technology that have about reached their full potential. I work with battery powered equipment all day and here is what I have noticed in the last 5-7 years: The batteries keep getting bigger but the motors have become smaller and more powerful. Basically there have been no savings in weight or size over the last few years while the power output, and efficiency have improved. This aspect has probably about reached it's maximum potential as well, short of some unexpected development in materials science.
Now that we have so many big batteries on hand all the time, we are starting to wake up (late) to the terrible fire danger they pose. We have several 40gal barrels full of fire retardant stationed around the shop in case of a thermal runaway. Training and PPE are still lagging way behind.

I believe Stihl’s backpack battery weighs in at about 25 lbs. that, along with the weight of a larger battery saw doesn’t seem like an advantage, maybe a necessity, but who wants that... especially dealing with large trees ?

They may not give us a choice soon. This whole conversation might look so quaint looking back 10-15 years from now.

 

[user 172857]

There’s an added element of risk having a backpack battery with a cable connected to the saw as well... I’d hate to have to make an emergency escape being cabled to the saw, and also having the potential to get caught up on something with the backpack or cable, and/or having to haul the saw out since it’s connected to my backpack...

 

[OM617YOTA]

Hopefully there's a safety disconnect on both ends of the cable. Apply too much force and it just pops apart without breaking anything, and can be popped back together again later.