How to stop new growth around stumps

[ATpro]

For example, a 4 Pound Casoron is not a "HOT" application compared to a 2 G (pound) casoron, because the directions compensate. Typically, 1/2 of a 4G will end up on the ground than when using the 2G.

Word Salad, you're trying to compare a ready to use product with formulations that are concentrated and require dilution for application.
You can buy ready to use Glyphosate and cut that, but it depends on the Glyphosate concentration in the product as to what the final result will be.

I see you quoted using the suggested formulation chart on the product and cutting that, maybe we had a miscommunication at the start.

The formulation charts on the product are there to help guide application for effective result. They are the approved upper level application rates for FDA/EPA approval. As a registered chemical applicator we were required to follow guidelines when it came to upper level concentrations. When doing work where Government Assistance Programs were involved we were required to use exact concentration and spread application levels as dictated in the contract.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Word Salad, you're trying to compare a ready to use product with formulations that are concentrated and require dilution for application.
You can buy ready to use Glyphosate and cut that, but it depends on the Glyphosate concentration in the product as to what the final result will be.

I see you quoted using the suggested formulation chart on the product and cutting that, maybe we had a miscommunication at the start.

The formulation charts on the product are there to help guide application for effective result. They are the approved upper level application rates for FDA/EPA approval. As a registered chemical applicator we were required to follow guidelines when it came to upper level concentrations. When doing work where Government Assistance Programs were involved we were required to use exact concentration and spread application levels as dictated in the contract.

Rather than repeat myself with different vocabulary just for your sake, I'll just leave my other posts for other readers. Past experience teaching and lectures leaves me with the impression that 9 out of a 10 readers will get the meaning of my posts clearly.

 

[Bill G]

Rather than repeat myself with different vocabulary just for your sake, I'll just leave my other posts for other readers. Past experience teaching and lectures leaves me with the impression that 9 out of a 10 readers will get the meaning of my posts clearly.

I am still lost at your concentration. I asked

What concentration level of 41% Glyphosate are you using to kill trees? Is that basal bark, cut stump, or foliar. I assume you alter for each method. What is you concentration level for each method. It is easiest to specify in ounces per gallon as that is the way it would be applied to trees since it would be a site specific spot spray treatment. If you are applying on a per acre basis what is your gallon per acre and ounce per acre. If you calculate by AI that is fine and you should be able to do the math for those reading the thread that do not work with it. If not I will help you so folks can be informed.

You posted this but failed to actually answer.

My previous replies should connote that I spray foliar. Whatever the concentration is, I reduce it to 50% or 75% but definitely not 100%.

I do the same thing for "weeds" in lawns too, including Dandelion. Before my college pesticide classes in the 1980s I'd apply full strength spray to old established dandelion and see quite a few sprout new plants or ever rosettes from the same root. Afterward I applied reduced so it could grow and translocate the triple herbicide lawn weed solution deeper into the root system. Then there were no new plants. Just little holes in the ground where the center roots decayed.

But that's why I do the same for any size plant or small trees I decided to spray.

This is an informational thread that is here to help educate folks on different methods so it would be best to actually attempt to provide some information like ATPro did here.

I said

It is by far the most effective in my opinion. The RTU is available almost everywhere including even Amazon. As you noted the Tordon 22K is regulated and required an applicators license which of course I have as well as millions of other folks.

How are you using the ,22K ? There is a lot of different opinions on it. Some say use it full strength which defeats to he purpose of buying it over RTU. Others mix it with one part 24D and two parts diesel. Others say forget the diesel and use water lots of varying thoughts on it.

He replied

We used it in a hand sprayer at 10% Tordon 22k with Basal Oil + DYE for spraying stumps on small scale. Needs to be sprayed soon after cut so the so the cambium area takes up chemical, can also add 2-4D to the mix for better control.

I asked

I have always just used the RTU but last winter I looked into getting the 22K because I needed a huge amount. I got conflicting answers from some folks on how to mix it. Some said 2 gallons of diesel with one gallon each of 22K and 24D. Others said to use water. So if I understand you correctly you are using the 22K as only 10 percent of your solution. If so how much 24D

He said

For a basal spray we added to the mix about 6 to 8 oz per gallon of mix in the water. Spec for 2.4-d Amine calls for 1 pint of 2,4-D with 3 gallons of diesel, half a pint of Silvex, but we used water instead of diesel. 2,4-D mix by itself isn't as effective on cut stumps much larger than 6" to 8" but added to the tordon mix it helps to provide ground saturation to control sprouting.

This was a hot mix, but effective.

He provided detailed information. I ask again.........What concentration level of 41% Glyphosate are you using to kill trees? It is easiest to specify in ounces per gallon as that is the way it would be applied to trees since it would be a site specific spot spray treatment. If you are applying on a per acre basis what is your gallon per acre and ounce per acre. If you calculate by AI that is fine and you should be able to do the math for those reading the thread that do not work with it. If not I will help you so folks can be informed.

Let's try helping some folks

 

[Hickahollar]

I still vote vinegar and salt.

 

[Bill G]

I still vote vinegar and salt.

That is the first I have heard of that and in no way am I in disagreement as I do not know. What I do know is white vinegar and salt is said to be a rust remover but when I tried it the result was less than "advertised". I think my concentration level and time factor was incorrect .

 

[Hickahollar]

I suppose the acid would help dissolve rust but you would surely have to put in a lot of elbow grease with salt as the agitator. It could work but in this instance I prefer a medium stiff wire brush attached to a drill. Works great and lasts a long time compared to sand paper.

 

[pdqdl]

I have always just used the RTU but last winter I looked into getting the 22K because I needed a huge amount. I got conflicting answers from some folks on how to mix it. Some said 2 gallons of diesel with one gallon each of 22K and 24D. Others said to use water. So if I understand you correctly you are using the 22K as only 10 percent of your solution. If so how much 24D

22k might not happen for you, as it is a restricted use pesticide and requires a license. Apart from that, there is nothing special about the product. It's just a more concentrated formulation of picloram. Tordon RTU has a little 2,4-D added, but I rather doubt that is essential for killing stumps.

I've been making my own RTU for years, as the final cost per ounce of herbicide is much less if you start with the more concentrated product. I'd use water for stump treatments, as that is how the regular RTU is formulated.

 

[pdqdl]

Some say to use Glyphosate which is roundup. That will kill only the new growth and is like locking the barn after the horse is out. You will continue to have new shoots. Cut your stumps and apply Tordon around the outer ring for existing shoots cut them and apply Tordon to the small stumps. It will be taken into the root system and end your problems.

That is a mistaken notion. Glyphosate is indeed translocated to the roots, and does provide a total kill. That being said, I think it is not as effective as Picloram products at killing the stump. One bonus for the glyphosate treatment: there is no concern for killing adjacent plants that might also have roots in the treated area. Tordon remains in the soil, and sometimes can injure adjacent plants.

Another good stump treatment is any herbicide that contains triclopyr.

 

[Bill G]

22k might not happen for you, as it is a restricted use pesticide and requires a license.

That made me chuckle. If you look back to post #15 I said

It is by far the most effective in my opinion. The RTU is available almost everywhere including even Amazon. As you noted the Tordon 22K is regulated and required an applicators license which of course I have as well as millions of other folks.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So making it "happen" is not a problem. I have an applicators license and got my first one at age 16. I was in high school when that law came into effect. Of course that was in the pen and paper days. Illinois at that time required you to sit through a 3 hour training session prior to taking the test. The closest test site was 50 miles away and my father did not want to stop working to go do it. I was 16 and I had no problems skipping school to go do it. I sat through the session, took the test, and got my first applicators license. After that the renewal did not require the long training sessions. I just renewed in January via the online test although the testing service "proctor u" screwed up my computer. On another note one of my sons has his commercial applicators license.

 

[Bill G]

......................I've been making my own RTU for years, as the final cost per ounce of herbicide is much less if you start with the more concentrated product. I'd use water for stump treatments, as that is how the regular RTU is formulated.

There en lies the question I asked ATpro about. There are a lot of different thoughts on specific mixtures. Some say to use water because as you noted that is what RTU uses. Others say to use diesel while others use crop oil. A few use liquid nitrogen.

How are you using the ,22K ? There is a lot of different opinions on it. Some say use it full strength which defeats to he purpose of buying it over RTU. Others mix it with one part 24D and two parts diesel. Others say forget the diesel and use water lots of varying thoughts on it.

Then after you choose which of those to use the next question is to add 2-4-D or not. The current formulation of RTU is 5.4% Picloram, 20.9% 2-4-D, and 73.7% other ingredients. I asked ATpro about how much of it he used in his mixture. He answered ...

For a basal spray we added to the mix about 6 to 8 oz per gallon of mix in the water. Spec for 2.4-d Amine calls for 1 pint of 2,4-D with 3 gallons of diesel, half a pint of Silvex, but we used water instead of diesel. 2,4-D mix by itself isn't as effective on cut stumps much larger than 6" to 8" but added to the tordon mix it helps to provide ground saturation to control sprouting.

This was a hot mix, but effective.

Since I am trying to gather as many opinions from folks that actually use it I will ask you.....what is your specific tank mix for using 22K on cut stumps. I asked M.D. Vaden about his/her specific tank mix of Glyphosate for cut stumps and he/she did not reply. Not sure why.

 

[Bill G]

That is a mistaken notion. Glyphosate is indeed translocated to the roots, and does provide a total kill. That being said, I think it is not as effective as Picloram products at killing the stump. One bonus for the glyphosate treatment: there is no concern for killing adjacent plants that might also have roots in the treated area. Tordon remains in the soil, and sometimes can injure adjacent plants.

Another good stump treatment is any herbicide that contains triclopyr.

If you feel Glyphosate is effective then try the experiment I purposed here.

............... Go select four similar sized trees that you would like to kill. Spray 25, 50,75and 100percent of them respectively. See what the results are. You will see the respective amounts appear to die but the untouched will live. Select a fifth tree and cut it down then spray the stump. In 2023 go back and look at the results. The four uncut but sprayed trees will be alive and the stump applied one will be sprouting shoots depending on species. Another quicker trial is to spray a small section of grass early in the spring. It will appear to die but then as the season progresses you will see the grass come back. This is one of the reasons when no till farming you have to spray a second application of Glyphosate as the first application burns everything down but does not kill the roots of the perennials such as grasses. It does kill grasses such as corn because corn is an annual.

You can believe what you want but that is real life experience Your experience will vary

I just altered my quote to take out where I said it was too late this year and I exchanged 2024 for 2023. Since you are in the KC area it is not too late to try this. Go out and give it a try then go back in the spring of 2023 and see what those trees look like.

 

[Bill G]

.....................Another good stump treatment is any herbicide that contains triclopyr.

There are products containing triclopyr and it is simply another tool in the tool box .
Some products are Garlon, Vastlan, Tailspin, Remedy, Pathfinder and others. This entire thread is starting to look very similar to one along time ago on the Missouri Whitetails website
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/triclopyrgen.html

 

[sean donato]

That is the first I have heard of that and in no way am I in disagreement as I do not know. What I do know is white vinegar and salt is said to be a rust remover but when I tried it the result was less than "advertised". I think my concentration level and time factor was incorrect .

I've used a mix of vinegar and Epsom salt to keep stumps from sending new shoots off. Although its a bit more involved then just spraying it on, and depending on stumps size I guess it can get expensive as well. Small scale it works fine. Use a 1.5" wood auger to drill a few holes along the outer perimeter of the stump about 4 to 6" deep. Fill with Epsom salt then vinegar. I typically space the holes 6" apart give or take. I did a bunch of poplars a few years ago with this method, no new shoots and the stumps degraded pretty fast.

 

[quahog]

That is the first I have heard of that and in no way am I in disagreement as I do not know. What I do know is white vinegar and salt is said to be a rust remover but when I tried it the result was less than "advertised". I think my concentration level and time factor was incorrect .

A vinegar soak will definitely help with rust removal, but it is a smelly mess that you'll still have to go hands on with a scrub brush afterwards.

When i lived in Indiana, I would hit all the indoor flea markets/consignment shops for the old flat irons and any older(or at least US made) vise. I use the flat irons on bookshelves and the vises are self explanatory.

I would soak items for a few days in white vinegar-no diluting just the regular 5% stuff from the supermarket. This would soften the rust enough to come right off with a soft brush.

Earlier this year, I did the same with some rusting Conibear 110 traps.

The cons of using this is it will eat the metal and you may lose fine details you don't want to lose.

Some gurus at cleaning up old metal are on the Garage Journal forum and in their vises thread.


because of this thread, I have some Tordon RTU on order. It sounds like just what i need after clearing some crab apple and other stuff from my future front yard.

 

[Bill G]

A vinegar soak will definitely help with rust removal, but it is a smelly mess that you'll still have to go hands on with a scrub brush afterwards.

When i lived in Indiana, I would hit all the indoor flea markets/consignment shops for the old flat irons and any older(or at least US made) vise. I use the flat irons on bookshelves and the vises are self explanatory.

I would soak items for a few days in white vinegar-no diluting just the regular 5% stuff from the supermarket. This would soften the rust enough to come right off with a soft brush.

Earlier this year, I did the same with some rusting Conibear 110 traps.

The cons of using this is it will eat the metal and you may lose fine details you don't want to lose.

Some gurus at cleaning up old metal are on the Garage Journal forum and in their vises thread.


because of this thread, I have some Tordon RTU on order. It sounds like just what i need after clearing some crab apple and other stuff from my future front yard.

Trust me sir Tordon RTU is by far the most effective especially on a smaller scale. I know other disagree but heck we cannot all agree.

As for flat irons are you talking about the old heavy clothing irons that were used to press clothing? If so I have some to part with.

As for the conibears they must have been really bad. I was out today and last night scouting trapping locations. Looks like the ole beavers are back for another round. As for 110's they are a bit of a sore subject with me.

 

[quahog]

Trust me sir Tordon RTU is by far the most effective especially on a smaller scale. I know other disagree but heck we cannot all agree.

As for flat irons are you talking about the old heavy clothing irons that were used to press clothing? If so I have some to part with.

As for the conibears they must have been really bad. I was out today and last night scouting trapping locations. Looks like the ole beavers are back for another round. As for 110's they are a bit of a sore subject with me.

Looking forward to trying the Tordon RTU for sure.

Thanks regarding the irons. I'm good now and well stocked up. Most of what I bought was in the 5ish dollar range, but I saw many for more money. They are useful for all sorts of stuff, book ends, door stops, paperweights, etc.

These conibears were bad and abused. I just use them for squirel pest control around the house here. Cleaned them up with vinegar, made sure the friction spots by the trigger was cleaned up, and painted black. Works like a charm. I'm not thrilled with the 110s-even with gray squirrels I often have to pop them in the head with a 22 to get a humane kill.

 

[pdqdl]

There en lies the question I asked ATpro about. There are a lot of different thoughts on specific mixtures. Some say to use water because as you noted that is what RTU uses. Others say to use diesel while others use crop oil. A few use liquid nitrogen.

Then after you choose which of those to use the next question is to add 2-4-D or not. The current formulation of RTU is 5.4% Picloram, 20.9% 2-4-D, and 73.7% other ingredients. I asked ATpro about how much of it he used in his mixture. He answered ...

Since I am trying to gather as many opinions from folks that actually use it I will ask you.....what is your specific tank mix for using 22K on cut stumps. I asked M.D. Vaden about his/her specific tank mix of Glyphosate for cut stumps and he/she did not reply. Not sure why.

I just duplicate the math for the RTU. I don't figure there is any reason to try to beat the system that has been working for a long time.

For those fellows that want better kill, just put more of the stuff down. I killed a 100' tall stump in front of a billboard once with 1/2 gallon of Tordon RTU. Somehow that big cottonwood never woke up the next spring...

 

[Bill G]

I just duplicate the math for the RTU. I don't figure there is any reason to try to beat the system that has been working for a long time.

For those fellows that want better kill, just put more of the stuff down. I killed a 100' tall stump in front of a billboard once with 1/2 gallon of Tordon RTU. Somehow that big cottonwood never woke up the next spring...

That is my point. Some want to re-invent the damm wheel. Tordon is as close to 100% effective as any chemical can get at controlling what it is labeled for. Glyphosate is not designed for nor labeled for stump spray. It is a burn -down and will allow perennials to come back. Anyone who does not believe me go talk to a farmer that took first cutting hay off a long established Alfalfa/Brome field with the intention to spray it with Glyphosate and follow with no till beans. Ask them whatt happened. How many re-sprays

 

[pdqdl]

I'm not gonna argue about whether glyphosate doesn't kill plant like farmers expect. I know it does kill perennial plants for me. Failure to put down a pre-emergent or soil sterilant will be the cause of more plants coming up. It is also labeled for perennial grass suppression at reduced rates. If you are experiencing re-growth problems, I suggest you increase your rate of application.

Do you ever read the entire label on your herbicides? Here is the label for Roundup:
https://www.arboristsite.com/thread...them-or-recover-them-here.362404/post-7822238

...Glyphosate is not designed for nor labeled for stump spray. ...

A quote from the product label:

"Cut Stump (Tree Crops)​

USE INSTRUCTIONS: Cut stump applications of this product may be made​

during site preparation or site renovation, prior to transplanting tree crops. This​

product will control regrowth of cut stumps and resprouts of many types of tree​

species, some of which are listed below."​

​

...it is a burn -down and will allow perennials to come back. ...

And then there is this:

"Product Description: This product is a postemergent, systemic herbicide with​

no soil residual activity. It is generally non-selective and gives broad-spectrum​

control of many annual weeds, perennial weeds, woody brush and trees.​

​

I also have no doubt that herbicide resistance could be a problem with your observed re-growth of some plants. Roundup is so commonly used it should be expected that some plants will become resistant. I have a property I have been putting total soil sterilant on for about 35 years. Some of those weeds will laugh at Krovar, my old standby.

 

[pdqdl]

...It is a burn -down and will allow perennials to come back.

Perhaps you are confusing Reward Herbicide, or several other like them. Anything with Diquat as the active ingredient will perform that way, and their labels clearly state that.

Liberty herbicide will do the same thing in my very limited experience. It never mentions the word "systemic" but it does claim to control perennials.