I'm gettin' tired of this!!

[Timberhauler]

My phone has been ringing alot here lately,and I've lost count of how many jobs I bid in the last two weeks.But that's just it.I'm giving out bids right and left,but can't seem to buy a job.The last couple I have bid on,I even bid a little low,hoping that it would really get us rolling again,but even that's not working....Either we're getting an over abundance of people bidding jobs real cheap,or I'm about to get blindsided with work..
There is a guy who sells real estate around here.In the last two years,I've looked at countless jobs for him,usually going well out of my way to do so.Then it struck me that in two years I have not gotten one single job from him.He called me about two weeks ago,asked me to come out and check out a couple of trees for him,I told him that I didn't have time anymore to be jerked around...I've looked at well over ten jobs for him in the last little while,and have gotten nothing out of it.I'm not sure why he keeps calling me.I guess I burned that bridge,but I guess there wasn't even a bridge in the first place..I have never even gotten any refferals from him..I guess I'm just frustrated and needing to vent.This time last year,we were having to sub work out,now it's all we can do to work five days out of the week.I'm not sure what gives.

 

[tzelmet]

re-bidding

Like recycling, they take your bid and tell the next guy "I already have a lower price, or I've got someone who will do it cheaper!" Ever hear that one before? Just have Faith my friend, sooner or later the will come back, they always do. Next time your in their neigborhood fire up your chipper for a minute and chip a piece or two. Let em know who's got the big guns.

 

[Blinky]

...I've looked at well over ten jobs for him in the last little while,and have gotten nothing out of it.I'm not sure why he keeps calling me.I guess I burned that bridge,but I guess there wasn't even a bridge in the first place..I have never even gotten any refferals from him..
...

Sounds like that bridge was ripe for the torch.

Keep bidding, you know how it happens, feast or famine.

 

[loveroftrees]

I was the same way a month ago. Then whaaam. Be patient they will come.

 

[Timberhauler]

I wish there were some kind of standards around here in this business.Anyone who ownes a rope and a chainsaw thinks they are a tree guy.I have a guy who lives hear me who decided to get into the tree business this past summer...He didn't even know how to climb a tree,and he was out bidding jobs.He came to me several times and tried to either get me to put a tree on the ground for him,or chip some brush for him..Every single time,he didn't have enough money in the job to justify me setting foot on the property...Jobs that I wouldn't have done for no less than a thousand bucks...It was a 400 dollar job for him...He had a huge white oak tree not far from here he wanted me to put on the ground for him..I went and looked at it,it would have taken me at least a whole day up in that tree to get it to a point to fall it..He only bid 700 bucks on it.....He eventually got overwhelmed and quickly got out of the business..There is another one running around here who for a while he was in my driveway every morning trying to get me to bring my skid loader somewhere to haul logs for him...I was a little slow a couple of weeks ago,so I took my grapple truck over to one of his jobs...He wanted me to haul the logs for him,which I could have done in about an hour and fetched about $600 bucks..but he wanted half of whatever I made on the wood.It was six huge poplar trees,and he had only bid 1200 bucks on the job..It was very near my house,and I watched this job go down,and it took him and some other guy all week to end up getting that wood out of there..Last week he had the nerve to stop by one morning and ask me if he could use one of my climbers...I left it up to Steve,the climber he wanted since things were a little slow...So thinking he could possibly pull a little extra cash,Steve went and helped him,from 8 in the morning until after dark that evening...He only paid Steve 100 dollars which is half what I pay him for a full day.Needless to say the next time that guy showed up,he was promptly re-directed..It's people like this that are hurting all of us who are trying to do it honestly....I have met with many other tree outfits around here,and we have all agreed on a standard hourly rate so we are not cutting each others throats,but there are starting to be so many Toms,Dicks,and Harry's working without a clue of what they are doing and with no insurance or equipment..The biggest problem is that they are out there passing around fliers and running big ads in the phone book,and they bid a job ahead of you,the homeowner is going to expect your price to be comaprable to theirs.:deadhorse:

 

[Timberhauler]

I also wanted to ad that I do have many high end clients that really don't care what the job cost...But most of them want proof if insurance up front,which of course isn't a problem for me...Then there is the average homeowner who is looking for the cheapest way out.Lots of them are willing to take the risk of letting someone do their job uninsured.There has got to be some way to keep some of these yahoo's out of this business....I can respect anyone who is trying to start their own business and better themselves,but cutting other people's throats and working too cheap will only get make them worse off than they were...If someone wants into this trade,then why not do some research on running a business,and watch how someone with a reputation handles things........Obviously most of these people will never rise above where they are

 

[Ax-man]

It's a spring thing, your probaly just getting price shopper calls, the marginal outfits are lean and hungary to make a buck after a slow winter and you also have the part timers out doing trees either to get some firewood or make a little extra money on the side, the weather is so nice everyone and their brother are out running chainsaws.

We go through this every spring till everyone gets their fair share of work and then the prices start to be more competitive, which is usually about May or June in our area. I know we have to raise our prices but early spring is a bad time to do it because of the cut throating that goes on. It is always much better to wait till early summer to raise prices to offset the slow season because arborists are more in demand and everyone has their fair share of work and potential clients are more attuned to having tree work performed at the price you ask for even it is higher than someone elses.

 

[begleytree]

Lots of tree guys until they start starving out or its grass cutting time, then they're too busy for trees.
around here the new startups (ie pickup and poulan) last until summer, then they are gone. the grass guys take what they can get until the first cutting, then they are out.
IMO, the first bids are for the pickup guys. call so and so and get a price and we'll match it or beat it kinda thing. they're feeling out the market and don't know what to charge until you tell them.
we broke loose hard about 2 weeks ago. it will come. a watched pot never boils. relax, go do some spring fishing and count the calls when you get home. have faith, it will happen.
-Ralph

 

[Timberhauler]

Thanks for all the input guys...As long as I have been in this business,I've gotten familiar with most of the patterns,but this year so far has been especially unusual....Luckily I'm kepping just enough to stay alive,but I have lots of bills that need catching up,as well as a couple of peices of equipment that need little things fixed here and there,so that makes it twice as frustrating....I'm sure it'll come around,it always does,then I'll be wishing for some idle time to cool down.

 

[begleytree]

yeah, winter of 06/07 was the first year we didnt work at least 3 days a week all winter. heck we went 3 weeks this winter with nothing. and spring was slower to start, it seems.
-Ralph

 

[Blinky]

...
There has got to be some way to keep some of these yahoo's out of this business....I can respect anyone who is trying to start their own business and better themselves,but cutting other people's throats and working too cheap will only get make them worse off than they were...If someone wants into this trade,then why not do some research on running a business,and watch how someone with a reputation handles things........Obviously most of these people will never rise above where they are

I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, just playing devil's advocate for minute.

It's probably better to compete with the pickup and poulan guys than to have some giant multi-national corp come in and sweep the field clean of ALL independant operators.

The reason I say that is, this is America right? Freedom and Capitalism reign... the poor and beleagured can make something of themselves with honesty, hard work and a little resourcefulness. That's fantasy, I know, but I favor the little guy over the giant... cuz I'm the little guy. We are all potential 'little guys' if some conglomerated landscaping company with huge pockets decides it wants all the tree service business in the country.

I'm breaking into this business right now. I have a Volvo wagon, a 440, a 200T and my basic climbing and rigging gear. I climb contract for two companies right now, one a lot (pruning) and the other just a little bit (takedowns). I don't pursue jobs independently but I've done a few for people I know and who trusted me not to drop something on their house. I don't do ads or flyers but i do have business cards that say 'contract climber'. When someone calls me, I direct them to the people who employ me.

When it comes to bidding, both my employers bid lower than I would... I'm still training them. I know from experience that underbidding is baaaad juju for any business that wants to sustain itself.

I'm not a pickup hack, but I'm not 'Joe's Tree Service - in business since 1962' either. I take arborcare seriously and only want to do technical work, off the ground. I'm paying my dues right now.

One day I'll be pursuing jobs on my own, that's above board with everybody... I may still be working out of my wagon though because I simply don't want the responsibilty of owning heavy equipment... I want my life to stay simple. Give me the big tree pruning jobs, and one day, well in the future, the inventories and the consultations, and I'll be happier than a lizard on a warm rock.

I hope your phone starts ringing off the hook with work orders tomorrow. Good luck.

 

[Timberhauler]

I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, just playing devil's advocate for minute.

It's probably better to compete with the pickup and poulan guys than to have some giant multi-national corp come in and sweep the field clean of ALL independant operators.

The reason I say that is, this is America right? Freedom and Capitalism reign... the poor and beleagured can make something of themselves with honesty, hard work and a little resourcefulness. That's fantasy, I know, but I favor the little guy over the giant... cuz I'm the little guy. We are all potential 'little guys' if some conglomerated landscaping company with huge pockets decides it wants all the tree service business in the country.

I'm breaking into this business right now. I have a Volvo wagon, a 440, a 200T and my basic climbing and rigging gear. I climb contract for two companies right now, one a lot (pruning) and the other just a little bit (takedowns). I don't pursue jobs independently but I've done a few for people I know and who trusted me not to drop something on their house. I don't do ads or flyers but i do have business cards that say 'contract climber'. When someone calls me, I direct them to the people who employ me.

When it comes to bidding, both my employers bid lower than I would... I'm still training them. I know from experience that underbidding is baaaad juju for any business that wants to sustain itself.

I'm not a pickup hack, but I'm not 'Joe's Tree Service - in business since 1962' either. I take arborcare seriously and only want to do technical work, off the ground. I'm paying my dues right now.

One day I'll be pursuing jobs on my own, that's above board with everybody... I may still be working out of my wagon though because I simply don't want the responsibilty of owning heavy equipment... I want my life to stay simple. Give me the big tree pruning jobs, and one day, well in the future, the inventories and the consultations, and I'll be happier than a lizard on a warm rock.

I hope your phone starts ringing off the hook with work orders tomorrow. Good luck.

But see,there is nothing wrong with starting small and knowing what you are doing and knowing the business.I once said that I didn't want any employee's or any equipment other than a dump truck,but once I got going,I quickly saw that I had to do something or I was gonna get bruned out fast...You'll get there.Thanks for wishing me luck.

 

[kevknep]

I have met with many other tree outfits around here,and we have all agreed on a standard hourly rate so we are not cutting each others throats,but there are starting to be so many Toms,Dicks,and Harry's working without a clue of what they are doing and with no insurance or equipment..The biggest problem is that they are out there passing around fliers and running big ads in the phone book,and they bid a job ahead of you,the homeowner is going to expect your price to be comaprable to theirs

I'm very new here and have been reading up as much as I could before even posting, but the above statement really surprised me, especially since no one commented on it. I understand the frustration about unprofessional people and/or businesses, but you pretty much just admitted to price fixing. Running a business without insurance is irresponsible, but probably not illegal. I think meeting with other tree businesses and agreeing on prices is just plain unethical, if not borderline illegal. How would you feel if you found out all of those small companies got together in a coordinated attempt to make sure they underbid the established businesses? Or to use another industry as as example, if all of the local oil distributors got together to agree on prices?

 

[rb_in_va]

Or to use another industry as as example, if all of the local oil distributors got together to agree on prices?

Isn't that what OPEC does?

edit: Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC

 

[Timberhauler]

It wasn't done to set a high price so that there wasn't a cheaper way out.Some of us got together to talk about some of these non existant outfits under bidding jobs...Each business owner in this group,including myself,was not interested in bidding cheaper than the next guy.We got together to figure up some kind of standard we could go by to base our rates upon.For example if you had five different outfits bid the same job,you would still have five different prices because not everyone looks at the same job the same way,but it does bring us a little closer together on our bids so we are not cutting each others throats...This way if someone calls five different outfits to bid their job,and they get five different bids,say within three or four hundred dollars of each other,then they get some no name in that bids five hundred to a thousand dollars cheaper than everyone else,then the customer is likely to know that something isn't right...If all the little outfits got together and made a plot to underbid us,that wouldn't bother me,I've got clients who I know will use no one else,and that will keep passing my name on..My business is just a little slow,but not dead..But the only ones they would be hurting is themselves.They would never be able to afford to insure themselves,they would never afford to be able to own or maintain any equipment or hire any help.In the end,they would end up burned out from having to do everything by hand,and when and if they had an accident on a job,they would be shut down anyway.Big or small,it's a numbers game..I didn't get where I am by overbidding and getting lucky,I got here by doing good work at an honest price.I would gladly let one of these guys try and run my outfit for a month or so going by some of the rediculously low numbers I've seen bid on some of these jobs...And by the end of it all,my insurance would probably be lapsed and everything would either be broken down or out of fuel.

 

[kevknep]

Isn't that what OPEC does?

edit: Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC

Exactly. That is why I said local oil distributors. In the US, it is illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200104/06/eng20010406_67034.html

And if we think our own companies are doing it, we will prosecute:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186289,00.html

OPEC is still made up (mostly) of countries that could care less what the US thinks of their price fixing, and of which the US is not a member.

 

[rb_in_va]

Seems to me that Timberhauler was just letting these other guys know that there is more money to be made. Nothing wrong with educating some noobs.

 

[kevknep]

That is one way of looking at it. But he specifically said he did it so that they didn't cut each others throats. And complained when people underbid him. That, to me, sounds like keeping market prices high for the customer.

I apologize for sounding cynical, but I have seen too many companies try to take advantage of people (myself included). I can't believe some of the quotes people give for jobs and not understand why they get underbid. My company often gets accused of bidding too low, but our profit margin is probably the same or higher than the big companies. We buy only the equipment we need, and decided at the beginning we had no desire for big equipment at this stage. That is a competitive advantage for small to medium jobs, and allows us to bid lower and still make money.

I only bring this up because it is possible to bid low and make money, if you don't have a huge amount of heavy equipment to pay for. There are different market niches some companies shoot for.

 

[Blinky]

Exactly. That is why I said local oil distributors. In the US, it is illegal.
...
And if we think our own companies are doing it, we will prosecute:
...

Well, we say that anyway. In NC it's not exactly a secret that the big road construction companies get together twice a year down East and divy up the state road contracts.

Price fixing is rampant with big corps in markets with only a few competitors. We only prosecute when they piss off some politicians. In the US, it's only illegal if you're not playing ball with the power brokers.

 

[kevknep]

Very true. I would have to agree.