I'm gettin' tired of this!!

[OTG BOSTON]

I'm with you

I'm very new here and have been reading up as much as I could before even posting, but the above statement really surprised me, especially since no one commented on it. I understand the frustration about unprofessional people and/or businesses, but you pretty much just admitted to price fixing. Running a business without insurance is irresponsible, but probably not illegal. I think meeting with other tree businesses and agreeing on prices is just plain unethical, if not borderline illegal. How would you feel if you found out all of those small companies got together in a coordinated attempt to make sure they underbid the established businesses? Or to use another industry as as example, if all of the local oil distributors got together to agree on prices?

This is what it is, Price-fixing. Good call kevknep. You just beat me to the reply.

TH, for your own good you should edit your post:taped:

 

[kevknep]

Timberhauler,

I re-read your post after the edit, and still think you are missing some points. I sincerely didn't mean to offend you or your business, and am sure you do good work. You just seem to think that "something isn't right" when someone significantly underbids you. Still, you and the other owners getting together to agree on pricing is price-fixing. You want the customer to base their choice of quality, and that is commendable. But, you don't seem to want price to come into play, which is wrong in my book.

Some businesses don't want a bucket truck, loader, lift, huge chipper, monster stump grinder etc. And because some businesses stay simple, they don't have to bid as high for the same job. You yourself referred to equipment cost and maintenance in your post. Trust me, a business can keep low overhead and still afford to insure themselves and do quality work. Now granted, I hate yahoos with no insurance, business license, etc that go around and make the profession look bad, but a low bid alone doesn't make a company a low quality operation.

 

[Treeman587]

It is not price fixing. They have a real problem with jacklegs. As do we here in HR, Va. (ie Kevknep)

Hey kev, your profile says you are a software engineer. As I recall no one ever got a blister from a keyboard. Who do you work for, Northrup Grumman?
Why are you arguing this. It takes real money to operate in this industry. We have a hard enough time getting our customers to understand why treework costs money as it is without Cowboys coming in and saying they can do it for half. Then they do get the job, Piss on their customers and make the ones out there trying to do a professional job look bad.

I had a lady last week tell me she would pay $1000 for a job after I told her it would be $1950. I told her I couldn't do it for that. She tells me she has never payed more than $475 for a tree to be removed. I told her to call that guy, ask for his insurance, and let me know what her yard looks like when they get done. I added if she wanted a clean, professional, timely job that was the price{1950}.

You dont want to know how many signs I have seen NAILED to trees by the road I have seen around here lately. They say TREEWORK 7575550000 in spraypaint.

I did my time, I learned from some of the best in this area. I saved my money and bought equipment, Not pot,crack, or alcohol.

If you are reading this, and you have no insurance, experience, or equipment I MEAN YOU.

 

[kevknep]

TreeMan587,

First off: I do have insurance and a business license and run a completely legal and legitimate business.

And in regards to my employment, I did work for Northrop Grumman for several years, but not now. And no I never got a blister while being a software engineer, though my wrist would get sore from time to time.

And in regards to equipment: I own as much as I need for the niche I want to compete in. In other words a small chipper (4.5" DR, go ahead laugh), Alphine Magnum Stump Grinder, and quite a bit of climbing and rigging equipment.

You mentioned it takes real money to operate in this business, and that is probably true for anything, but it is relative to your goals. You want the big equipment, then you need to pay for it. I don't. My total start up cost was under 10 grand + my truck payment. I don't want the big equipment because I don't want the overhead. My partner and I run an LLC and had to quit advertising because we were getting more business than we wanted. So why would you call me a jack-leg? Because I don't need to add in my payment for a bucket-truck on every job I climb?

I can understand you are tired of jack-legs. But some small businesses get very tired of bigger businesses thinking they are the only ones who can afford insurance or that they can do a good job. One of the biggest jobs I ever got was when a big company with nice equipment came in and scared the customer telling them to demand insurance, license, and the regular speech you just mentioned. When asked for the information, I politely provided it for them, and answered her questions and didn't try to sell more work. I have had multiple customers state how easy it was to get a bid and schedule work from us. Do I pass your test yet or are you convinced that since I don't have big equipment I am not a real player.

 

[rb_in_va]

Some businesses don't want a bucket truck, loader, lift, huge chipper, monster stump grinder etc. And because some businesses stay simple, they don't have to bid as high for the same job. You yourself referred to equipment cost and maintenance in your post. Trust me, a business can keep low overhead and still afford to insure themselves and do quality work. Now granted, I hate yahoos with no insurance, business license, etc that go around and make the profession look bad, but a low bid alone doesn't make a company a low quality operation.

A job is worth what it is worth. If a person bids a job at $2000, but has no crane or bucket truck it will take longer (less $/hour). If a person has heavy equipment the job should get done quicker and he makes more $/hour, and rightfully so.

 

[Treeman587]

I dont have HUGE equipment. I have commercial tree care equipment needed to do a professional job. And no you havent passed my test. My test of true treecare cannot be carried out over this website.

 

[rb_in_va]

You dont want to know how many signs I have seen NAILED to trees by the road I have seen around here lately. They say TREEWORK 7575550000 in spraypaint.

Or stumpgrinding signs on spray-painted plywood. REEL CHEEP!

 

[kevknep]

A job is worth what it is worth. If a person bids a job at $2000, but has no crane or bucket truck it will take longer (less $/hour). If a person has heavy equipment the job should get done quicker and he makes more $/hour, and rightfully so.

I agree for the most part. Efficiency does come into play, also does the amount you need per man hour. I shoot for $50/man hour for simple jobs, $75 per man hour for more highly technical jobs. But we only ever have 2 men on the site at one time, so there is no standing around. I see countless companies send a 4 or 5 man team out and at any one point 2 to 3 guys are standing around. They also had to be paid for the drive out and the drive back.

 

[Treeman587]

http://www.alpinemagnum.com/

Do you honestly feel that will grind a stump correctly?

That machine does what I like to call a "Scuff 'n' Buff"

And your DR chipper wouldn't eat the first limb off those trees I bid.

So no you are not a player, I barely am. It would have taken you two days to get those trees down and haul them. As where I would have been done in half the time, or better.

So lets do some math. $50/hr for two men over two 10 hr days is $2000 plus an extra trip to the job


Sounds more like you are getting $25 an hour if you came in and cut me off at the knees for the $1000

 

[kevknep]

I dont have HUGE equipment. I have commercial tree care equipment needed to do a professional job. And no you havent passed my test. My test of true treecare cannot be carried out over this website.

Fair enough. Very good response. Again, I never meant to offend anyone, and if I took a combative stance, I apologize. But then again, someone did come out swinging referring to me as a jackleg. My only intent in the last couple of posts was to state that you can't judge the quality of a company or person by the amount of their bid.

 

[Treeman587]

:sword: opcorn:

 

[kevknep]

http://www.alpinemagnum.com/

Do you honestly feel that will grind a stump correctly?

That machine does what I like to call a "Scuff 'n' Buff"

And your DR chipper wouldn't eat the first limb off those trees I bid.

So no you are not a player, I barely am. It would have taken you two days to get those trees down and haul them. As where I would have been done in half the time, or better.

So lets do some math. $50/hr for two men over two 10 hr days is $2000 plus an extra trip to the job


Sounds more like you are getting $25 an hour if you came in and cut me off at the knees for the $1000

I was referring to player as in "play by the rules" i.e. licensed and insured. And I wouldn't expect to win the bids for big removals.

And yes, the AlpineMagnum will grind a stump correctly. I have rented some smaller walk behinds, and will take it over them anyday. It does goes through teeth fairly quickly, but it is one heck of a little machine.

The chipper does what I need it to. Yes it is small, but I don't want a bigger chipper, which need a bigger truck to pull it, which means more expenses which means... you get the picture.

 

[Treeman587]

Takes money to make money.

Not going to argue anymore, I made my point. Good luck:taped:

 

[Blinky]

If you are reading this, and you have no insurance, experience, or equipment I MEAN YOU.

I don't want a knock down drag out here, I would just like to offer a moderate perspective.

How would you propose someone get into this business if they have little in the way of financial resources to begin with. Should they just stay out and only allow people with plenty of money and credit do it?

Price under cutting is everywhere you go, not just tree business. Price cutting is a hallmark of American Capitalism. It's unfortunate, but it is. If the employment situation in the US was better, there would be a lot less jacklegs.

The reason I'm now in this business is because the digital revolution changed commercial photgraphy forever. I was making a nice living. The volume of work has diminished to almost nothing now that anybody with a DSLR (or even a point and shoot) can shoot products and editorial. Take a look at Smithsonian or National Geographic, the quality of photography is nothing like it used to be... because now any jackleg shooter who just wants to be published can submit digitals and get printed... as long as they don't expect to be paid more than a few hundred bucks. I gave up when I saw and ad on Craig's list that offered to shoot any tabletop sized product for $15 a shot... the last straw was when I lost one of my regular customers to a Chinese studio that setup in the district where the manufacturing was done... 700 high rez (but lame) images for $2500... less than $5 a shot.

At least aerial tree work is something that not just anybody can do... unless there's a bucket truck revolution coming. My opinion is, you simply have to compete on something other than price. It sucks because most jobs are awarded on price above all else. But do you really want the cheapest customers, the kind of customers who call a spray painted number nailed to a tree? You cannot eliminate the jacklegs without eliminating capitalism... nor can you distinguish them from legit, hardworking upstarts who are hungry for work... ever been hungry for work?

I'll grant that you need to have insurance before ever pursuing customer one, but the idea that anyone doing treework should own a bunch of heavy equipment and have 10 (for the sake of arguement) years of experience is protectionist... you have to start somewhere. Paying for experience with a lower price is a time tested way to build a business. People do it all the time. You already know that you can't live on low bids for very long. Once you have that experience and the equipment, you can stop bottom feeding and continue to grow on quality and service. If you never had quality and service, you'd be out of business before reaching that point.

I agree that the jacklegs degrade the volume of available business, I agree that they keep arboriculture undervalued as a service... and I honestly do feel where you're coming from... I lost a business and a very substantial life savings to jackleg photography... but this is America and competition is how we do business.

Price fixing is a dirty trick played by powerful companies that don't want to compete... it's cooperative monopoly. That's not what Timberhauler is talking about... they don't have a monopoly and the barriers to entry in the tree service business are low... you can't effectively fix prices in that environment.

 

[oldirty]

hmmmmm

kevknap.

your equipment is, how do i say....laughable at best.

if your running those particular pieces (dr and that grinder) i would hate to see your saddle. what are you using for ropes? clothesline?

not for nothing pal but those are the tools you find in the shed of a homeowner. that same shed you have to move to get out of your way so you can do the tree.


although i will say this. good luck


oldirty

 

[Tree Slayer]

..I have met with many other tree outfits around here,and we have all agreed on a standard hourly rate so we are not cutting each others throats,but there are starting to be so many Toms,Dicks,and Harry's working without a clue of what they are doing and with no insurance or equipment..The biggest problem is that they are out there passing around fliers and running big ads in the phone book,and they bid a job ahead of you,the homeowner is going to expect your price to be comaprable to theirs.:deadhorse:

Collusion is a term to refer to acts of cooperation or collaboration among rival entities.

In the study of economics and market competition, "collusion" takes place within an industry when rival companies cooperate for their mutual benefit. Collusion most often takes place within the market form of oligopoly, where the decision of a few firms to collude can significantly impact the market as a whole. Cartels are a special case of explicit collusion. Collusion which is not overt, on the other hand, is known as tacit collusion. Collusion is largely illegal in the United States (as well as Canada and most of the EU) due to antitrust law, but implicit collusion in the form of price leadership and tacit understandings still takes place.
If you have ever done any large jobs with large contracts that is a big no no, and it is in writing.

 

[tzelmet]

pricing wars

What a serious disussion, I'll keep it brief and readable. We all started somewhere. Inform clients when you are bidding that they are taking risks with no insurance. Who do they think is going to pay if something goes wrong?

Ask them, I find often, they think it is cost free to them.
They are wrong indeed.
Anything goes wrong; Power disruption, injury, damage, and their insurance is going to pay the bill. I know tree guys that walk from jobs when they go bad. These fly by nighters give us all a bad name, least of all a bad image for tree work in general.
Fight ignorance with education.
These ignorant tree workers will have to stop smoking the pipe and hit the books or find a new line of work!!
Great topic it affects us all. My solution has been to establish myself in the local community as a top notch climber. When people check me out, the know that I can do what I say. And by the way, I've done work for dirt prices as well, so hate me if you must, but I am here to stay, God willing. All I ask is to have a heart, Cause we are all in the same boat.
Besides, guys come in and out of this business all the time. The work will sort out the losers from the stars. Keep pushing forward and believing in yourself and you will elevate.



Oh yea, the truth often hurts!

 

[Timberhauler]

Here is what I have...I have a Bandit 250XP chipper,I recently sold my drum chipper..I have an international 18ft dump truck with grapple,a Freightliner straight single axle truck.20ft with logging standers,a cat 257 rubber track loader,an 865 new holland,a ford f-450 with a 12 foot dump bed...I have four employee's,five if you count my wife whenever she helps out...I also have a part timer who helps me on Fridays and Saturdays.I keep new saws,I rotate them about every other year to keep from having a suprise breakdown..I'm constantly replacing lowering and climbing lines as they wear...I do not only do tree work,I do small timber clearing as well..Usually up to about five acres..So ..I'm not a huge outfit,I could probably cut my helpers down to one or two,and would be able to make it still...Which of this outfit that goes out in the morning depends on the jobs,and what we'll need,but it's most always the F-450 pulling the chipper,and the grapple truck.I do not own a bucket truck,nor will I ever as long as I can climb.90% of the jobs I do,I wouldn't be able to get a bucket into if I had one anyway...Again,not everyone in the tree business in this county got together and set a price so we could gouge people...Most of us were friends anyway.There are still plenty of others that weren't in on this.As far as contract bidding,I don't do it.I'm not even interested in taking on any contracts,but I do alot of very big jobs.Given what I have here,I've been in the business all my life,but on my own for fifteen years...I have three children,and now my wife is not working,so all of the load right now is on my shoulders...So tell me..What some of you who are in disagreement with me do????..If the ball was in your court,and you're out honestly bidding jobs,and you are losing one after another to some jackleg that doesn't have any idea of what he's doing in the first place...

 

[Tree Slayer]

I'm just telling you to be carefull about your statement. As far as the low ball guys go that all goes away as soon as spring gets into gear and theres more work for everyone.So stick to your guns and do good work at a fair price and everything will be good. I'v been doing this 25 years, and these hacks come and go all the time. Now all I have to do is figure out how to pay my workers comp bill this year 37K for a five man crew

 

[tzelmet]

Timber hauler I hear you. I sympathize. My thoughts are this:

If I could set the price for treework I would and it would be high!
Let all the politics aside and consider, I risk my life for money. Bottom line, I don't do this for fun. That is a side benefit for me because I have to work to pay the bills. I can say for all tree guys that this is real work. Not sitting at some lame desk and punching buttons all day.

I would set the price so high people would respect us even more because right now they don't. Some do, but most don't, even though they can't or wouldn't do it. There is always someone cheaper. I say that to about 90% of the clients I bid because that's what they always tell me. It is frustrating as hell. Wish we could just throw down a price like $12.00 for a steak and people would pay because they want it. Or lets say $3.50 for a beer at some joints and they think we can afford this by working for the wood!

I had some guy ask me last week on a bid if I would do it for the wood!
I about fell out of my chair. We were sitting at his kitchen table. I had to get out of there quick, cause I felt insulted, to be honest, and a little pissed. Oh well, I can tell from his yard that he doesn't want to spend a dime on his trees.