I'm throwing in the towel.

[HolmenTree]

Pretty good numbers for the investment there Holmen tree, congrats. What is your day rate ideally? (if you dont mind)

My ideal day rate ...... $5,000 day, no just kidding LOL. Wouldn't we all wish!

We work 8 mths a year. Average $1,000- $1,500 day. Plus quite a few of $2,500 to $3,000 ones when we're on 4 day road trips working 15 hr. days.

I always believed [as a one time piecework logger] to take weekends off ,spend time with the family, recharge your batteries and then give er Monday morning . When we are doing local work we work 8 hrs a day, 5 days a wk. On the road 15 hr. days [ 2 x 4 day weeks a mth] . We charge by the job and only a few times by the hr. for small commercial jobs. Almost all our business is residential. Word of mouth works, if your good and fast, people look in awe when you get the job done in record time and not a twig left on their lawns even after they pay you $300 hr. Most people don't want a crew hanging around their homes making noise for too long.

I look at my business as Piecework. Stump removal is 50% of my business[$5 per inch ground level diameter]

 

[tree MDS]

You do a hundred grand worth of stumps?

 

[HolmenTree]

You do a hundred grand worth of stumps?

Thats right,almost every tom #### & harry up in my neck of the woods has a chainsaw but they are left with a stump. My little 252 is the best investment I ever did. My worker and I got it down to science now, He sets the folding plywood blind up around the stump, I grind ,put grinder back on trailer, then help him filling buckets with chips ,throw in trailer, rake up and backfill & level holes with leftover dirt. With Greenteeth, AutoSweep turned off, $300 hr easy.[ $5 inch] for multiple stumps ,[ 60" stump would take as much as 2 hrs. with the 252,so now we are down to $150 hr. , 6 -10" stumps an hr no problem]

Got to get into the shop, back in the evening.

Willard

 

[tree MDS]

Thats sweet man, I've been thinking about a vermeer 352 they seem like a good machine. A stumper is the only thing I dont have yet and I'm sick of paying other people/scheduling it so I can cleanup with the tractor. I wish it payed like that around here though. Good luck, MDS.

 

[Texas Traveler]

I am going to throw this out here & see if I am wrong in doing it.
About 2 months back, A young man called me about a real nice CS346 Echo saw that I had bought new but hardly used & asked if would take a tradein on a saw I was selling on Craigs list.
I told him I would look at it.
He brought over a STIHL 032, still had old gas in it that smelled like 10 years old.
The carb was flooding bad, complete with a bad chain & bar.
I told him him he needed to put up a little cash to make the deal fly.
Oh heck no man It should be a even trade.
I told him you are expecting me to trade you a nice running saw for one that won't run.?
Well I have a tree job I just have to do & I don't have much money.
If you help me this time I will be back & buy that big 090 saw you have there.
Like hell you will & I let the damn kid walk off with the good saw.:censored:
Man I kicked my rear for a damn week around here, damned ole fool feeling sorry for that idiot & letting a kid screw you like that.
Fast forward 2 months & what do I get on the phone is the same damn kid wanting to buy the 090.
Well boy how much money do you have just for #### & gigles. I have $800.00 cash, that will buy all I need said the kid.
That is when I started having hot flashies & he was still bragging when I hung up the phone.:deadhorse:

 

[HolmenTree]

Thats sweet man, I've been thinking about a vermeer 352 they seem like a good machine. A stumper is the only thing I dont have yet and I'm sick of paying other people/scheduling it so I can cleanup with the tractor. I wish it payed like that around here though. Good luck, MDS.

I tried a demo 352 a few years back,it was only 10 h.p. more,and over a thousand pounds heavier then my 252 and about $10,000 more,for doing stumps on lawns the 252 is heavy enough or you'll be doing lawn repairs. In the near future I'm thinking about upgrading the old 252 with a 35 h.p. Kohler and some heavier business end shafts and bearings. But by then I might find something better and more modern.

The trick to getting lots of stump business is "cleanup". You leave that pretty lawn with a flat round backfilled black spot where the stump used to be and word of mouth will take care of you.

 

[HolmenTree]

I should mention with a machine the size of the Vermeer 252 [ 25 hp, 1,000 lbs,] I found its niche was the manicured lawns and hard to access stumps.With a good cleanup man ,2 guys can make $300 hr [$5 per inch dia.] in multiple stumps [6x 10" stumps etc.] .But one 60" stump can take 2 hrs to do.Now your down to $150 hr. I almost threw in the towel a few years ago because of the big stumps, if you charge one rate you can't change more for bigger stumps for all honesty. So now I measure every stump at ground level the one widest measurement [ underground the rootball averages the widest width] and in the big stumps which always have large above ground lateral roots then I measure to the widest width roots included. Also watch for newly raised ground level around stumps, you can lose there too for sure. Now everthing averages out over the year and I'm making money, especially with fuel prices the way they are now. If they get any higher......yeah $6 per inch.

 

[Treeinnovator]

Holmen Tree,
don't take this the wrong way, but your full of it. I worked a hurricane cleanup and ran a 252 stump grinder all day long. had entire neighborhoods sold. 30-50 homes sold at a time with rediculous stump prices...up to $10 inch.
the reason i question your numbers is because half the time i was spending my time selling, my worker was grinding, and all he did was hoe a pile of mulch (no extensive cleanup) and we still only averaged $1500 day profit.

we were doing 20-30 stumps a day. unless you have a boatload of stumps in one yard, it takes a long time to take the machine from location to location. that alone will eat up half your day

and this was a hurricane cleanup where i didn't have to go running around for estimates and callbacks.

 

[tree MDS]

Yeah and I dont see where a 352 would do any signifigant lawn dammage either, sorry I sub one all the time. And do they really weigh 1000 lbs more?? Are you certain?? Oh, its 3$ an inch around here generally I hear, we just throw out a number though generally.

 

[Tazman1602]

Bigus termitus,

Your advice is appreciated. Having the wrong people in the wrong positions is a recipe for disaster. This cost my squadron commander his command a few years ago. However, my foreman fulfilled his end of the bargain, he did every job I asked him to do, and did them well. The problem was that I couldn't find enough profitable work. I'm interested to hear from anyone else in Northern Michigan. Are we saturated with tree companies up here?

Hey Tom,

I'm about 100 miles north of you up by Petoskey. The economy here has absolutely collapsed, no question about it. Jobs are GONE and gas is over $4.30/gallon.

I'm an Engineer on computer systems, spent 12 years working/designing the dang things. About two years ago my job "went away". No problem. My house on 20 acres is long paid for and my kids are grown. I've survived over the last two years by becoming a Tax Professional for H&R Block (a winter job) and fell into a Fleet Mechanic position for the summertime for a local landscaper -- the biggest in the area (my *first* degree was in Automotive Technology). It's been a great job with a great boss, really a great guy to work for and the pay ain't bad. It was enough to keep my in spending money anyway.

This summer has been a disaster. We've had a lot of rain.......the irrigation guys are mostly laid off because no one is using their irrigation systems. The ones that aren't laid off are the ones who build our custom trucks........thereby meaning I get laid off because they are in the shop now. Boss has tried to do me a favor by keeping me on part time, but that means I make less than Unemployment so that one is out.

........Meanwhile??? There's 30 Mexican nationals that work for the guy who have NOT been laid off and are still working full time while the native guys get laid off. BAD press for the guy but he brought them here from Mexico and he does have an obligation to keep them working until November. It's created some real hard feelings fom most of the native locals that work here, myself included.

I don't know what this winter will bring. I DO know that the robber-barron oil/gas companies will JACK the cost of heating to a point where people will be freezing to death in their homes.

I've got 30-40 cords of wood put up already for this winter so I ain't freezing. I had a notion that with the price of heating going up like it did last winter that I could make a killing on firewood this year.

Truth is I'll most likely end up GIVING a lot away to single moms, families in trouble, etc.

What the heck, I won't make any money, but maybe God will forgive me for some of the **** I did as a kid.

Best of luck man!

 

[capetrees]

I use my Dosko grinder at $2.50/inch. Man, that price has to go up!

 

[HolmenTree]

Holmen Tree,
don't take this the wrong way, but your full of it. I worked a hurricane cleanup and ran a 252 stump grinder all day long. had entire neighborhoods sold. 30-50 homes sold at a time with rediculous stump prices...up to $10 inch.
the reason i question your numbers is because half the time i was spending my time selling, my worker was grinding, and all he did was hoe a pile of mulch (no extensive cleanup) and we still only averaged $1500 day profit.

we were doing 20-30 stumps a day. unless you have a boatload of stumps in one yard, it takes a long time to take the machine from location to location. that alone will eat up half your day

and this was a hurricane cleanup where i didn't have to go running around for estimates and callbacks.

Treeinnovator I see your problem, Do you seriousily think your worker is trying to break production records on the 252 while you are away? the only work my worker does is look after the chips and cleanup.It took me a couple of years to get real fast on the 252. I replaced the wheel drive motor with a larger sprocket and slow it down at the stump with the speed control. I always run my ginder only.I got my 252 and chipper side by side at the back of my side dump trailer ,everything is quickly accessable.I think the biggest thing that speeded up the 252 is the Greenteeth,we go through them like candy but man they throw chips. And I don't have to do much running around doing estimates, when I do my jobs its like a dominoe effect eveyones neighbor has work for us. Look at the map and see where northern Manitoba, Canada is. We are in the land of the midnite sun.At this time of year there is only about 2 hrs of darkness[ 2-3am] We put in long hrs here.

 

[Viburnum]

TomSawyer,
did you go after large commercial accounts, residential, or both? i spent a few years doing residential and small commercial work and made the normal money. it was when i started winning the BIG commercial accounts (500 to 2,000 trees at a time) that my business took off and money was flowing. had i stuck to the smaller stuff i would have thrown in the towel long ago.

So how did you make that step to big commercial acocounts? We're trying to head in that direction but are still running around like headless chickens doing residential quotes and referrals. Were you approached or did you cold call, get a lead...?

 

[Treeinnovator]

i bought a used JLG 60ft 4x4 manlift. already had the chipper truck, chipper, and stump grinder. that lift will enable you to do kill your competition on price and bidding. they can't touch your speed, efficiency, and ability to go where their bucket trucks can't.

in a nutshell... that lift allowed me to lower my prices to where other companies can't compete.

 

[hornett224]

that is funny about the 352 tearing up lawns.

we just bought a Rayco Super RG50 and we have had no problems tearing up lawns. not to mention i use the Mahindra 3215 with the loader to remove the grindings. them buckets get way to heavy. go back through with the backpack blower and fluff the grass blades up and your done. if that's not good enough,they can keep the stump. no one here has complained. they're just amazed how fast we're done.

 

[rbtree]

Im a lousy businessman, I dont charge old people enough, I do freebees for people I think deserve them, I overpay my staff, I turn down dismantles and heavy prunes if I dont see good reason for them, I frequently talk my way out of alot of work by saying the trees are fine, my paperworks a mess and my invoicing can be a little random. My palm pilot is me writing on my hand, my accountant thinks I run the business just to buy more gear, I have happily spent hours on "quotes" listening to war vets talk, I dont charge enough in general, (I get 97% of my quotes doh) I do work for my whole street for wine, and I have been known to spend longer on a job because the kids there are having to much fun with my dog.


But who cares, I love what I do and enjoy it.

Seconded on the good read! Thanks Timber..

I do many of the things you mentioned....

out here, though, there's a lot of competition....I'd say I get way under 50% of my cold bids....

 

[clearance]

i bought a used JLG 60ft 4x4 manlift. already had the chipper truck, chipper, and stump grinder. that lift will enable you to do kill your competition on price and bidding. they can't touch your speed, efficiency, and ability to go where their bucket trucks can't.

in a nutshell... that lift allowed me to lower my prices to where other companies can't compete.

Check out the 4x4 boom thread, fired all his climbers, etc. Treeinnovator is a troll who went by the name "Treeminator" in the past. Holmen, and others who don't know, its all true, he's a troll. Plain and simple.

 

[tree MDS]

i bought a used JLG 60ft 4x4 manlift. already had the chipper truck, chipper, and stump grinder. that lift will enable you to do kill your competition on price and bidding. they can't touch your speed, efficiency, and ability to go where their bucket trucks can't.

in a nutshell... that lift allowed me to lower my prices to where other companies can't compete.

I'll just consider you a loser based solely on that last comment- and for what its worth my all wheel drive bucket will drive right over that pencilneck lift of yours, lol. Any moron that buys big equipment to lower his rates is just that- and bad for the industy.