is this professional ?

[slowp]

Not enough money in it here to deal with buttholishness... (for us anyway)
I have run into some real winners. We had one guy that we asked if we could have a few unmarked trees in the cut area and because of deep snow he said no. So I asked if I marked them if we could have them, which he replied Yes to. So I did. That's not real ambitious. You would think they would give us everything they could because that would increase the probability of a return logger.

Whole clumps of trees dying in hazard removal projects and they would not give them to us because they did not only have 10% canopy left, most were 30% or under left green.

I have also cut blocks of select timber that were marked for cut, not a single straight log in the bunch. Crooked, rotten.... As if to say, these are all the trees we don't want and want removed, good luck selling them, but we got what we want... But you can't leave them either.

I have viewed sales up for bid that were the same thing. How's a guy supposed to make a buck?

Sales of burn areas that they will not allow skidding by tractor, only line machine (or suspended skidding). Of which there are not many around because it costs too much to operate vs what you get from your buyers.
Didn't really matter anyways because it was already slated for law suit before the bids were opened.

Some administrators seem to be so red tape oriented that they don't make it lucrative for the logger.

We had one guy that would not pass our slashing for anything. "has to be 18" or lower" The area we were working in was so windblown and thick with deadfall that it was not uncommon to have 3' - 4' of debris before we even started logging. They even had trail crews that came up and got lost trying to cut out the trails because they could not find them and eventually just said forget it and were told to leave them and not reopen them at all. We had to fight tooth and nail for him to pass us finally he did with two other officials suggesting that he should.
Ridiculous. If they ran it like a business then maybe we all might accomplish something, but as it is, I don't see many people doing much FS sales here anymore because FS doesn't even want us there and it shows.
We had one office tell us that they were trying to get out of anything that has to do with timber.

Some guys bid on FS sales, but I don't know how they survive, or make it happen. I can't wrap my head around it.

Welcome to the "Last Best Place" (not for a Logger)

We just had a deal on the news where two major mills in the state here were interviewed and said that only 5% of their wood comes from FS sales. 10% from state. (our state forester seems very open to getting timber put up btw) 85% from private

Probably me just on a rant... ignore it.

You really need to sit in on a planning meeting. That is where the head banging begins. And, read up on the contract. Unless it is a special case, or for slashing or something else, you are not required to cut culls. Look in the A provisions where it says what included timber is, and what is a merch tree. The contract defines that.
I know it is boring, but read up and familiarize yourself with the contract. That way you will know what is required and what is not. Also, you can put requests--always in writing to ask for changes if something is not quite right. Ask questions.

There are bad eggs out there who try to bluff. If you don't know what is in the contract, you can't know.

As for working in timber. I really liked it. We put out a product and I worked in more of a real world. But, timber folks are the part of the FS that most management folks want to hide away. It's the black sheep of the Forest Service. Although it funds a lot of Forest Service "specialists" they often do not like having to work on timber sales and don't care.

 

[bnmc98]

You're right, I have not sat in on a meeting. I'm sure that there is a lot more that goes into it than what I see.

 

[slowp]

You're right, I have not sat in on a meeting. I'm sure that there is a lot more that goes into it than what I see.

I absolutely hated going to planning meetings. I am sure my blood pressure was in the danger zone at times.

Arrrrgh, Out Out You Demons Of Stupidity.

And as long as the sales keep selling, the 'ologists will continue to pile on more requirements.

 

[northmanlogging]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=899211460125947&set=p.899211460125947&type=3

lets see if this works, on the lines of firewooding, this would be mah pah and nephew probably an ancient 034av maybe slinging a 25" bar? Also this is on a FS road that happens to lead to some private ground. I'm assuming it was taken saturday?

 

[Sagetown]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=899211460125947&set=p.899211460125947&type=3

lets see if this works, on the lines of firewooding, this would be mah pah and nephew probably an ancient 034av maybe slinging a 25" bar? Also this is on a FS road that happens to lead to some private ground. I'm assuming it was taken saturday?

Well; it don't work on my end. It says" SORRY".

 

[Gologit]

You're right, I have not sat in on a meeting. I'm sure that there is a lot more that goes into it than what I see.

Go to the meetings whenever you have a chance. They're aggravating but they're also informative.
You might have to chew a hole in your lip to keep from saying something when the idiocy starts but just sit there and take it all in. The meetings give you a good idea of who is who and you need to know that.

 

[SliverPicker]

You want to be careful. If you really have a jerk as a sale administrator, they can insist on being notified in writing that they need to come out and mark the trees and they have up to 10 days to do so. I've heard of a couple of guys who insisted on that method and they milked those 10 days. It is a rare thing, but every once in a while, one insists on that.

I've seen this in action. It shut a whole job down for about 5 days.

 

[SliverPicker]

I'm actually hoping that when I grow up to be big and strong I can bid on some FS sales. That's where the best timber seems to be hiding these days.

Whenever I am dealing with FS sale administrators (not often) I make sure to tell them that I have been to Forestry Skool. Offering that info seems to make things a bit smoother. A spoonful of sugar? Maybe just grease for the wheels.

 

[chucker]

I'm actually hoping that when I grow up to be big and strong I can bid on some FS sales. That's where the best timber seems to be hiding these days.

Whenever I am dealing with FS sale administrators (not often) I make sure to tell them that I have been to Forestry Skool. Offering that info seems to make things a bit smoother. A spoonful of sugar? Maybe just grease for the wheels.

?? or it puts more chocolate on the tip of the nose ?? lol

 

[Quartz Path]

All I can say is dangerous if trees are cut and felled like this it is only a mater of time before someone kills themselves the lack of anything even trying to resemble a hinge on those cuts should give away how bad the work has been as for half cut trees left standing that's insane.

 

[muddstopper]

I am just a firewood hack now, but growing up I used to do a lot of logging. dad picking me and my brother up everyday after school to head to the woods. Of course the trees in my area are nothing lie the wood you westerner folks cut. A 4ft dai tree around here is a really big tree. I can relate to FW stealing wood, some so bold to try and do it with you on the job site. I had a job of removing some pretty large Northern Red Oak. Mot of it so big my cable loader woudnt even put one end of the log on the truck. I had to wait until the clearing crew could pick the logs up and put on my truck. One guy drove up with his pickup truck wanting to cut some fire wood. Since I wasnt hauling firewood and there where plenty of good tops laying everywhere I said sure, cut all yu want, just leave the logs alone. I even went so far as to take the cable loader and pull a bunch of tops up to the road to make it easy for him. When I got my truck loaded, it was a couple of hour round trip to the log yard. When I got back to the site, guess what, the guy had cut up a large portion of my saw logs into firewood lenght. well to late to save my wood, but I be durn if he was going to haul it out of there for firewood. I got the clearing crew to bring their dozer and push the blocked wood, as well as all the tops I had pulled up to the road, bac down into the gulley they came from. The FW guy came back with his pickup and started complaining they where pushing all the wood where he couldnt reach it. I told him to quit his B.tching and leave, I had tried to be nice and help him gather his wood, and would of pulled up a lot more for him, but he just had to ruin my high dollar veneer red oak that I was getting a dollar a board ft for, which back in those days was a lot of money. He b.itched and moaned, but his easy wood just wasnt available any more.

I know a lot of loggers in my area, even though I dont log anymore, a lot of the folks I grew up with. I still go to their logging sites to harvest firewood. I ask before I show up and they usually will take their loaders and load me up all the butt uglies they dont want. It gets the junk out of their way and I get my firewood. I seldom have to crank a saw and usually dont even get dirty. I might have to sit around for a little bit until everything is clear for me to actually get to the wood, but I stay out of the way and stay ready for when they are.

 

[treeslayer2003]

yes sir, if they just work with us i don't mind helpin um out. i'm about done on this job and the last thing i'll do is push the tops back in the woods. they better get it, i won't leave that in the field for the farmer to complain to the land owner about my mess.

 

[muddstopper]

I think most of the loggers would probably go a little bit out of their way to help a FW'er as long as it didnt interfer with their operation. It doesnt take but one Ahole to screw things up for everybody. You screw over the logger a time or two and I can guarantee the logger will ban everybody from his site, and the next site hes working on too.

 

[FSburt]

Hello all long time since I have posted but this one grabbed my attention. They do contract the hazard tree falling work along ohv and hiking trails on the northern cal forests since they get a lot of grant $ for this. Now judging from the 2 pics of the stumps it appears the first tree was a green red fir felled parallel to the road what is not visible is f the top 1/2 was dead only. The second tree looked like a total hack job with a small bar. Now if this were govt fallers doing this level of shoddy work someone should be answering for it. We have spent a lot of time and energy in R5 developing a safe and efficient cutting program that frowns on this type of substandard work. Now another clue is the low cuts. Most FS stumps as some on hear will attest are usually of the conventional undercut method and are waist high for ease of escaping the stump in a standing position. We have had some folks (private citizens) trying out their falling skills on big green sugar pine 60 inches plus dbh. 1 was felled and left in the middle of the road and another was sawn up with undercut kerf all cut up but they could not get it blocked out so they left as is. I debated falling it but since it's still a live tree and it's not a hazard to any roads and is in middle of the woods I decided to leave it. Just sad to see the big trees like that get vandalized by some wannabe lumber sexual fool trying to impress his woman.

 

[FSburt]

Oh and it could be low bidder contract work with someone in over their head trying to deal with trees beyond their skill level.

 

[eigermike]

found out that the forest service said they learned some things after this job. she told me that that contracter would not be back. said that they wont have as big a crew and the contract would be writen different next time. she really difnt say much about the tree that was half cut but she really wanted more pics of the cullvert that was damaged. said they could dock them money for it. she gave me the rules for danger tree felling that they used . she said there was a forest person with them when all cutting was done. when the snow melts this spring i will take her in and show her all that i saw. the sad thing is whats been done is done! i will keep u guys posted as to what ever happens thanks mike