rx7145
ArboristSite Guru
What is your no load cycle time?
Log splitter pump mounting question
- Thread starter sdnomad
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What is your no load cycle time?
A 4 x24 cylinder with a 16 gpm pump should have cycle times between 8 - 9 seconds depending on shaft diameter and the pump running at 3600 rpm's.
rx7145
ArboristSite Guru
RON58
ArboristSite Operative
Filter ??
Now I'm confused. I built my splitter and after its done I read that I may have the filter in the wrong spot. I looked at the huskee at TSC for the locations of everything. They use a filter on the suction all of them. I used 16 gpm pump and 4" cyl. and have a 14-15 sec time. I think it should be faster? Helpful ideas welcome.
Now I'm confused. I built my splitter and after its done I read that I may have the filter in the wrong spot. I looked at the huskee at TSC for the locations of everything. They use a filter on the suction all of them. I used 16 gpm pump and 4" cyl. and have a 14-15 sec time. I think it should be faster? Helpful ideas welcome.
RON58
ArboristSite Operative
Help
OK,I am relocating the filter to the return side and about to cut the tank and install a strainer on the suction side. Does it matter if the filter is mounted side ways or possibly upside down?
OK,I am relocating the filter to the return side and about to cut the tank and install a strainer on the suction side. Does it matter if the filter is mounted side ways or possibly upside down?
definitely move filter to return side.
Up or down doesn't matter.
There is an in & out, or filter will blow up! oil has to flow from outside to inside of the element because of the way the pleats are supported. If going inside to outside, it wads all the pleats together, reduces area for flow, increases pressure drop. Also the bypass valve is backwards, so doesn't work, and the pressure can blow the can or seal or crack the housing.
Rented a splitter where it had been backwards for a long time, maybe from factory. They got water in the oil, that causes paper element to swell, increased the pressure, and split filter cans, several times. They just put new filters on and sent it back out. When it split for me, I found and fixed the problem. Rather than give me free rental in appreciation, they even charged me for the time I spent running for filter and changing and fixing! Did pay for the filter though. I have not rented anything there since...
If cutting tank, be careful of oil fumes, fire or explosion. Personally, I'd move the filter to return and not cut into the tank. I'd skip the strainer. You could also add a spin on inline larger mesh suction strainer externally.
16 gpm on 4 inch cylinder (assuming 24 stroke) should be 5 seconds out. Retract depends on rod size also.
15 seconds out is only about 5 gpm. You might be cavitating pump and can't pull more than 5 gpm, or might be on relief, or on low section of pump only, or engine rpm way down.
Remove the suction filter and try it again and time it.
k
Up or down doesn't matter.
There is an in & out, or filter will blow up! oil has to flow from outside to inside of the element because of the way the pleats are supported. If going inside to outside, it wads all the pleats together, reduces area for flow, increases pressure drop. Also the bypass valve is backwards, so doesn't work, and the pressure can blow the can or seal or crack the housing.
Rented a splitter where it had been backwards for a long time, maybe from factory. They got water in the oil, that causes paper element to swell, increased the pressure, and split filter cans, several times. They just put new filters on and sent it back out. When it split for me, I found and fixed the problem. Rather than give me free rental in appreciation, they even charged me for the time I spent running for filter and changing and fixing! Did pay for the filter though. I have not rented anything there since...
If cutting tank, be careful of oil fumes, fire or explosion. Personally, I'd move the filter to return and not cut into the tank. I'd skip the strainer. You could also add a spin on inline larger mesh suction strainer externally.
16 gpm on 4 inch cylinder (assuming 24 stroke) should be 5 seconds out. Retract depends on rod size also.
15 seconds out is only about 5 gpm. You might be cavitating pump and can't pull more than 5 gpm, or might be on relief, or on low section of pump only, or engine rpm way down.
Remove the suction filter and try it again and time it.
k
When piping the return line should you have a pipe on the inside of the tank run down into the oil ,or is it good enough just to weld the fitting about an 1 1/2 off the bottom and let it flow in that way? Also you dont see to many splitters with vertical motors; cant the pumps not be mounted that way or is there another reason. I have two motors a 15hp vertical and a 6.5 horizontall if I can use the 15 I was going to get a 16gpm and I guess the 6.5 I am limited to the 11. Most of the splitter was given to me I just need a pump I have a s/s tube that is 15inches diameter and three feet long would this work ok for the tank? Thanks for the tips Chub
The return line is best mounted in the top of the tank, one less leak point, then extended to about 1 1/2" off the bottom.
The reason vertical shaft motors are used less often is that ready made pump adapters are not available.
Yes the S.S. tube would work for a tank in the horizontal position.
The reason vertical shaft motors are used less often is that ready made pump adapters are not available.
Yes the S.S. tube would work for a tank in the horizontal position.
When piping the return line should you have a pipe on the inside of the tank run down into the oil ,or is it good enough just to weld the fitting about an 1 1/2 off the bottom and let it flow in that way?
****The coupling is fine. If you use a NPT pipe threaded half coupling you can screw in a diffuser, or a suction strainer, to slow down the oil velocity. If you don’t use a diffuser, add some sort of baffle to slow down the oil velocity coming back into tank.
The pipe would only be needed if you need to get the oil to another part of the tank. Either way, you are trying to prevent oil from short circuiting right around to the suction and back to the pump. Want as much dwell time and smooth slow flow areas as possible. You do for sure want the return under the oil level, to prevent aeration.
ENGINE
Also you don’t see to many splitters with vertical motors; can the pumps not be mounted that way or is there another reason.
****Pump doesn’t matter. It is usually because the vertical shaft motors don’t have the small 4 bolt pad to buy and mount the bell housing adaptor. You have to make a mounting bracket and align the pump. Easy enough for a home project, but for mass production, they need to bolt on and go. It also makes a tall stack with pump under the motor. If you put pump upward and use a timing belt drive, the stack height is smaller, but the pump has to be opposite rotation. I think Barnes only makes one or two models like that and they are not in common box/surplus store channels.
***Swisher or Schweitzer or something has that arrangement of vert shaft and pump upwards along motor. They have a belt release for starting in cold weather, a neat feature, so it must use v belts. I’ve used one, just didn’t take the guards off.
Multiple V belt drives with large pulleys are needed to transmit much hp with minimum belt side loading. Still, belt drive usually puts too much side load on shaft. Chain drive is noisy and maintenance intensive.
Overall, the horizontal shaft seems to physically lay out better, but vertical is fine if you have it. The 12 hp, V twin lawn tractor engines are sweet running, smooth, and quiet. I’m not sure if a recoil rope start is available for them. Depending on the engine, may still need a battery for ignition. On my 18 hp flat Onan twin, no rope, I use the Jump Pack battery deals instead of a permanent installed battery. I would like to add rope start in addition to the electric. It has a magneto.
I have two motors a 15hp vertical and a 6.5 horizontall if I can use the 15 I was going to get a 16gpm and I guess the 6.5 I am limited to the 11. Most of the splitter was given to me I just need a pump
*****I would for sure go with the 15 hp if it can work out. It could probably pull a 22 gpm pump. The 11 or 22 gpm is not the issue, you just set the unloading pressure as limited by engine hp. The small section operating at 2500 psi is the determining factor. Assuming the 22 gpm pump has about ¼ ratio for low flow, then 5.5 gpm at 2500 psi is only about 10 hp. Easily ok, even with manufacturers inflated ratings of 15 hp. 22 gpm up to about 700 psi is also about 10 hp, so you could set the unloader valve there.
The down side is that the 22 and 28 gpm barnes pumps are much less common, and much more expensive: $300 vs $125 or so.
I’ve used many splitters and speed is the issue for me, not so much force. Force is determined by the cylinder size. Speed is determined by pump size, which is in turn determined by engine hp and operating pressure.
I would NOT use anything other than a two stage pump, even if it was free. You have the hp, put it to good use. Since you say you have most of the stuff cheap or free, just convince yourself you are using the money you saved there to buy a new pump! The savings now is forgotten, but the slow speed of operation is an aggravation every day you use it.
I have a s/s tube that is 15inches diameter and three feet long would this work ok for the tank? Thanks for the tips Chub
*****Sweet. Rust free. Need some ss for ends, etc. You can weld it with AC and nickel rods (expensive), and can weld carbon steel to SS just fine. SS is hard to cut and drill as it work hardens the surface easily. Use a cobalt drill bit, heavy pressure and SLOW speed. Round is not the preferred shape, but with good volume you should be fine.
kcj
****The coupling is fine. If you use a NPT pipe threaded half coupling you can screw in a diffuser, or a suction strainer, to slow down the oil velocity. If you don’t use a diffuser, add some sort of baffle to slow down the oil velocity coming back into tank.
The pipe would only be needed if you need to get the oil to another part of the tank. Either way, you are trying to prevent oil from short circuiting right around to the suction and back to the pump. Want as much dwell time and smooth slow flow areas as possible. You do for sure want the return under the oil level, to prevent aeration.
ENGINE
Also you don’t see to many splitters with vertical motors; can the pumps not be mounted that way or is there another reason.
****Pump doesn’t matter. It is usually because the vertical shaft motors don’t have the small 4 bolt pad to buy and mount the bell housing adaptor. You have to make a mounting bracket and align the pump. Easy enough for a home project, but for mass production, they need to bolt on and go. It also makes a tall stack with pump under the motor. If you put pump upward and use a timing belt drive, the stack height is smaller, but the pump has to be opposite rotation. I think Barnes only makes one or two models like that and they are not in common box/surplus store channels.
***Swisher or Schweitzer or something has that arrangement of vert shaft and pump upwards along motor. They have a belt release for starting in cold weather, a neat feature, so it must use v belts. I’ve used one, just didn’t take the guards off.
Multiple V belt drives with large pulleys are needed to transmit much hp with minimum belt side loading. Still, belt drive usually puts too much side load on shaft. Chain drive is noisy and maintenance intensive.
Overall, the horizontal shaft seems to physically lay out better, but vertical is fine if you have it. The 12 hp, V twin lawn tractor engines are sweet running, smooth, and quiet. I’m not sure if a recoil rope start is available for them. Depending on the engine, may still need a battery for ignition. On my 18 hp flat Onan twin, no rope, I use the Jump Pack battery deals instead of a permanent installed battery. I would like to add rope start in addition to the electric. It has a magneto.
I have two motors a 15hp vertical and a 6.5 horizontall if I can use the 15 I was going to get a 16gpm and I guess the 6.5 I am limited to the 11. Most of the splitter was given to me I just need a pump
*****I would for sure go with the 15 hp if it can work out. It could probably pull a 22 gpm pump. The 11 or 22 gpm is not the issue, you just set the unloading pressure as limited by engine hp. The small section operating at 2500 psi is the determining factor. Assuming the 22 gpm pump has about ¼ ratio for low flow, then 5.5 gpm at 2500 psi is only about 10 hp. Easily ok, even with manufacturers inflated ratings of 15 hp. 22 gpm up to about 700 psi is also about 10 hp, so you could set the unloader valve there.
The down side is that the 22 and 28 gpm barnes pumps are much less common, and much more expensive: $300 vs $125 or so.
I’ve used many splitters and speed is the issue for me, not so much force. Force is determined by the cylinder size. Speed is determined by pump size, which is in turn determined by engine hp and operating pressure.
I would NOT use anything other than a two stage pump, even if it was free. You have the hp, put it to good use. Since you say you have most of the stuff cheap or free, just convince yourself you are using the money you saved there to buy a new pump! The savings now is forgotten, but the slow speed of operation is an aggravation every day you use it.
I have a s/s tube that is 15inches diameter and three feet long would this work ok for the tank? Thanks for the tips Chub
*****Sweet. Rust free. Need some ss for ends, etc. You can weld it with AC and nickel rods (expensive), and can weld carbon steel to SS just fine. SS is hard to cut and drill as it work hardens the surface easily. Use a cobalt drill bit, heavy pressure and SLOW speed. Round is not the preferred shape, but with good volume you should be fine.
kcj
Thanks guys I have a tig so the welding end will not be a problem. I thought it may have been a bearing issue why they were not mounted vertical. Thanks again I am getting exited about getting started on it. Chub
RON58
ArboristSite Operative
kevinj
Thanks for the input. I will try some of your ideas and switch some stuff around hopefully Fri. I'd like to get it straightened out so I can paint her this weekend. I said before that when planning my splitter I looked at TSC Huskee for where to put everything. Those machines have a filter on the suction hose mounted to the tank. According to what everyone says here thats wrong but they seem to all work fine. Am I missing something. Just wondering. thanks, ron
Thanks for the input. I will try some of your ideas and switch some stuff around hopefully Fri. I'd like to get it straightened out so I can paint her this weekend. I said before that when planning my splitter I looked at TSC Huskee for where to put everything. Those machines have a filter on the suction hose mounted to the tank. According to what everyone says here thats wrong but they seem to all work fine. Am I missing something. Just wondering. thanks, ron
the filter may have been on return line going into tank, not suction coming from tank.
Or, they may have had a spin on screen cannister not fiberglass filter
Or, they may have just had a poor design! Factory stuff is more likely to be right than most homemade projects, but just because it is factory doesn't mean they did it right either. One bad example is the clear vinyl unreinforced suction lines used on many factory machines. Garbage hose, collapses when hot, etc. Poor design yet that way from the factory becasue someone didn't n\know better, or tried to make it cheap.
That's why I write so much: not want to be solving someones problems, but to teach information so readers can understand and solve their own problems this time and next time.
enough soapbox, back the to the project. let's see some paint pics.....
k
Or, they may have had a spin on screen cannister not fiberglass filter
Or, they may have just had a poor design! Factory stuff is more likely to be right than most homemade projects, but just because it is factory doesn't mean they did it right either. One bad example is the clear vinyl unreinforced suction lines used on many factory machines. Garbage hose, collapses when hot, etc. Poor design yet that way from the factory becasue someone didn't n\know better, or tried to make it cheap.
That's why I write so much: not want to be solving someones problems, but to teach information so readers can understand and solve their own problems this time and next time.
enough soapbox, back the to the project. let's see some paint pics.....
k
RON58
ArboristSite Operative
Owe Ya A Beer
Well, Yesterday I used your advise and made some changes. I did cut the tank but use a hole saw and shop vac to keep the mess down. Welded on a coupling for a strainer. Then moved the filter over to the other line. Worse part was draining the thing. Filled her back up and MAN, what a difference. EEEHHHAAA I was like a little kid at christmas. 9 SECONDS. I actually ran to the wood pile for the narliest chunk I could find. 9 SECONDS and hardly grunts.I split a few more and shut her down. Spent the rest of the day cleaning, priming and painting.Will do more today (second coat). Took some pics before and when done I'll try to post some. Thanks again.Ron
Well, Yesterday I used your advise and made some changes. I did cut the tank but use a hole saw and shop vac to keep the mess down. Welded on a coupling for a strainer. Then moved the filter over to the other line. Worse part was draining the thing. Filled her back up and MAN, what a difference. EEEHHHAAA I was like a little kid at christmas. 9 SECONDS. I actually ran to the wood pile for the narliest chunk I could find. 9 SECONDS and hardly grunts.I split a few more and shut her down. Spent the rest of the day cleaning, priming and painting.Will do more today (second coat). Took some pics before and when done I'll try to post some. Thanks again.Ron
