Logging for remote cabin site in AK

[svfancler]

I purchased property in an area I really wanted in remote SW Alaska, I plan on getting a permit to harvest state lands and I have already contacted the DNR and that appears to be no problem.

Now I have to figure out a method of skidding logs out of the swampy valley bottom to the build site. The site is on a rise and I am looking at 200 hundred minimum vertical and anywhere from a mile to 4 miles overland.

My vision is minimalist, but I dont think I will be able to pull 20 foot spruce logs out of the swamp by hand. I do think I can cut a trail up the slope and probably horse them up slowly but surely get a stack on site.

As for the swamp, its serious Alaskan swamp, definitely a lot of places I wont even be able to walk through let alone run equipment. So my question is what are the best techniques for skidding in tough, wet situations.

Right now Im thinking chainsaw winch for the tough stuff and rigging up a long hand winch or relay of several hand winches to get up the slope, so let me know what you think!

 

[Slamm]

I'm not very tough........... Just reading what you wrote swamp, 4 miles, uphill, horse .............. made me want to quit the job already.

Good luck,

Sam

 

[parttime]

I'm afraid I'm like sam, but I would love to see pictures of a project like this. Good luck and work safe.

 

[RandyMac]

oh boy, I'd 'copter in an Airstream.

 

[Gologit]

"Minimalist" doesn't always work. A chainsaw winch or a hand winch will be slow and cumbersome. If you need to move enough logs to build a cabin maybe a little sno-cat of some kind might work better.

And don't forget to take your tennis racket...you'll need it to fend off the sparrow sized mosquitoes.

 

[slowp]

What size of trees are you cutting?

I have some friends who built a small, log house out of lodgepole. They cut it into lengths that they could carry and haul in their pickup truck. He rebarred the logs together and put most horizontal, but some are vertical between the windows, and it is a very snug and warm house. I'd guess it is around 900 sq. feet and it is two stories tall. It is located in what we call, The Siberia Of Warshington, a place known for getting cold.

They planned it so they could build it without having to hire or rent big equipment.

 

[2treeornot2tree]

Free labor here. I would love to move to Alaska. Wife not so much, but guess I will see her when she comes up for the summers. lol. A atv and log arch might work, or a skid loader if you can get it there. Or you could just get logs closer to you cabin building site. I think I would stay away from the swamp area.

 

[Slamm]

I work in and around bottom grounds and swamps and I can tell you that whatever you are doing with regards to moving logs in those conditions, just multiply it times 10. If he is remote then multiply a bad situation like getting stuck times about 100, because if he gets his ATV stuck who is going to pull him out?

If he doesn't already know "Mudology" thats a term I've come up with for the study of mud and its effects on a logging production, then he is going to learn all of the hard things ........ harder.

I know horses too, and mudd or swamps and horses don't mix either, as they have a very high PSI on the ground and will sink like lead weights especially when trying to pull something.

Do like most every other uncivilized culture does and stay away from swamps.

That is life saving advice.


Sam

 

[northmanlogging]

Have you heard of Richard Proenneke, he built a cabin up there by himself, using only hand tools when he was 53ish but he stayed up there until 86ish(have horrible memory for times), someone made a movie out of his home videos from the 60s called Alone in the Wilderness, you should see if you can find it. There also a national park at his old cabin site and the cabin is still there.

Any way for moving logs, Richard just carried them, but Richard is hardcore, Wait until freeze up, and build a sled, lots of pictures of two horses pulling somthing like 6 cords (roughly 18000 pounds) in the snow, so one guy could feasibly pull 3-4 logs at a go with a snowmobile, or four wheeler, maybe more? use the chainsaw winch to assist in loading. Either way lots of hard dangerous work in the middle of nowhere with no chance of being found in time if something were to go south, so be very careful.

Moving anything across a swamp of any kind is an exercise in futility, it can be done just not fun and definetly not easy. If you pull it off you'll be allot more of a bad-mo-fo than I can ever dream of being.

His first name is not Richard but the stupid spell check thinks I'm swearing

 

[Rick Alger]

Man, you have got a challenge ahead of you. Here's my two cents.

I recently skidded the logs for a wilderness cabin with my horse. The terrain was both steep and wet. One of the builders had a 4-wheeler there, but he decided the machine couldn't do the job.

I skidded about 30 logs a day. They averaged 16 feet long with an 8 - 12 inch top. The average skid was no more than 300 feet straight up hill from a spruce swamp. It took three days to get all the logs skidded and piled on site.

To skid 4 miles with a horse with any efficiency at all, you would have to make a decent trail and use a sled to haul a bunch of logs at a time. Also it would have to be after freeze up and on packed snow. If you decided to use technology, I think a snow machine with a sled would do this faster or a 4 wheeler with an arch.

Anyway, best of luck.

 

[svfancler]

What size of trees are you cutting?

I have some friends who built a small, log house out of lodgepole. They cut it into lengths that they could carry and haul in their pickup truck. He rebarred the logs together and put most horizontal, but some are vertical between the windows, and it is a very snug and warm house. I'd guess it is around 900 sq. feet and it is two stories tall. It is located in what we call, The Siberia Of Warshington, a place known for getting cold.

They planned it so they could build it without having to hire or rent big equipment.[/QUOTE

Im going to try to get by with 5-7 inch spruce which at 20 ft. 75% humidity should be less than 200 pounds. There is a canyon over a little rise from my property that is not swamp and once ive got a log up out of it i think there a chance of skidding the sucker down by hand. thats what i meant by horsing the logs. its knee to waste high bush some hacking will be neccesary but the fact is that i have the rest of my life to work on this and a good winter income to refill the tanks after each trip so slow and steady will work just fine for me. Even if it means stacking one log a day.

 

[svfancler]

Thanks for the replies

Thank you all for your replies.

As it stands my timeline includes a trip in next summer just to poke around with a saw. Stack some firewood and get a real sense of whats its going take. I actually already have a potential buyer for the property so if those of you that said give it up are correct then thats what I will do.

But if i go out, measure, mess around, get my feet wet and still want to do it I still dont expect this to go smoothly or quickly. Ive got a nice gig in the wintertime to keep me busy, but the idea of going in the winter while the grounds frozen seems like it could be productive. This area is at the foot of the Alaska Range and upon talking with some old timers it sounds like going in at any time is never 100% safe, but summer is safer. I plan on having emergency communications on hand and there is a ldge about 10 miles from the location. That lodge even has ATVs and I think.what may work is renting an Atv from them during their slow early summer season and using that to skid up the hillside. The swamp remains and I think its got to be a chainsaw winch and carefully picking my battles. But please I welcome any more information or input that you have.

 

[2treeornot2tree]

How much property and how much was it? I am so so interested in moving there. I would much rather have bears as neighbors then these stupid people texting while driving and running red lights cause they are in such a hurry.

 

[svfancler]

Have you heard of Richard Proenneke, he built a cabin up there by himself, using only hand tools when he was 53ish but he stayed up there until 86ish(have horrible memory for times), someone made a movie out of his home videos from the 60s called Alone in the Wilderness, you should see if you can find it. There also a national park at his old cabin site and the cabin is still there.

Any way for moving logs, Richard just carried them, but Richard is hardcore, Wait until freeze up, and build a sled, lots of pictures of two horses pulling somthing like 6 cords (roughly 18000 pounds) in the snow, so one guy could feasibly pull 3-4 logs at a go with a snowmobile, or four wheeler, maybe more? use the chainsaw winch to assist in loading. Either way lots of hard dangerous work in the middle of nowhere with no chance of being found in time if something were to go south, so be very careful.

Moving anything across a swamp of any kind is an exercise in futility, it can be done just not fun and definetly not easy. If you pull it off you'll be allot more of a bad-mo-fo than I can ever dream of being.

His first name is not Richard but the stupid spell check thinks I'm swearing

Yes, when I was in high school I read ####'s journal and watched his home movies. That wasin the 60s when staking a cabin site was a pretty simple task.

Nowadays in order to do it legit you have to nominate an area for staking, then there is the actually staking process then a bid process at market value so its not as simple. You also have to be a resident to qualify. Non-residents are left with land sales and there are some good deals but you cant pick exactly where you want to build, unless you want to do it outlaw style which I don t think is the right approach.

#### Proennecke inspired alot of people, me being one of them, but as far as directly applying his techniques to logging, unfortunately I dont think I will have the luxury of just carrying them on site. Though I think I will be able to get away with building with 5-7 inch spruce rather the standard 8-10, which is a big difference in terms of selection and weight.

I qm certainly going to be using some of the same construction tecchniques, though with my experience as a mason I am going to try to upgrade his gravel floor to a stone floor over a gravel bed. But that is still a few years and lots of work down the line.

 

[slowp]

I failed to mention that my friends cut standing dead lodgepole for their cabin. That makes it considerably lighter in weight.

 

[Tundra Man Mike]

Lake Clark Area? I have shipped heavy equipment parts all over Alaska, have built remote cabins and have a fairly decent background in what it takes. Hauling freight in the winter is 2-10 times faster than summer. You need the right snowmachine and the right sled.

Lots of people want a log cabin. Until they find out that a stick built structure goes up faster, is better insulated and easier to upkeep. Most cabin failures are due to poor roof designs, flooding, fire and foundations.

You should be able to get a cabin package dropped near your place. SBS SBS Home Improvement has been doing it for years. There are remote airstrips all over.

These guys do it all the time. Friesen's Custom Cabins - Remote Projects

Time is your enemy. Permafrost is your enemy. Don't forget skeeters, bears and hypothermia.

 

[Slamm]

I failed to mention that my friends cut standing dead lodgepole for their cabin. That makes it considerably lighter in weight.

That is what that Di(k Proenneke guy was using was standing dead wood. He was picking up one end of the logs with easy ............... that isn't oak, LOL.

Must be styrofoam wood or something.

Sam

 

[stikine]

Tundra Man Mike pretty much summed it up for that part of the state...snow machine and sled are your best options for moving logs that distance. The pre-built kits would be much faster too.

 

[Jim Timber]

How do you get to the cabin site?

 

[Tundra Man Mike]

This is a 300F SkiDoo Tundra. Beams are 6X12X20'. I ran 35 MPH with plenty of throttle left.

300F again

570 Bearcat

Overflow is your enemy. Run all trails before you try to tow a load. If you hit water, let it freeze up solid before attempting to tow a load. Swamps are known for overflow. Conditions can change in just a few hours.

We took in most of my cabin package in 4 hours. 2 trailers, one pickup load. Around 7000 lbs.

3 Men. 2 disabled vets and 1 22 Y/O. Stacked and covered.

In contrast. 7 MPH.