Low Impact Logging

[John Ellison]

I can see where low impact could have all different kinds of meanings but not all of them good when it comes to long term stand improvement. Such as I'm going to cream all of your large high dollar trees but there will be very little impact on anything else, all of those worthless gum will be just fine. It is a shame but a lot of landowners think that if it doesnt look like a bomb or tornado hit their woods then you did a good job.
I believe in personal property rights, but also really believe in the "worst first" type of logging.
In this area it is about 50/50 pine/hardwood. There are two large local (30 40mi.) pulp mills. $18 ton delivered minus $11 ton trucking= I can't log pulpwood even if it is free. In this area TSI work where the landowner pays is pretty much out of the question. 75% of the time I do yard jobs where someone buys a small acerage, builds a house right in the thickest timber and then several years later for different reasons decides that they want to take out the pine and leave the hardwood. I enjoy logging around a house. When someone has me to take the pine out of their woods its usually easy to get them to go for a worst first approach because most of the pine saw logs in this area goes by the ton, so you can buck the defect out of most of it since it is being short logged anyway.

On the subject of low impact, there are all the things that we do and dont do that make a difference in the future of the timber stand, but there is also the things that dont really matter as much but play a big part in how the landowner sees things. Flagging off birds or wildlife nests,so you dont accidently ... . picking up other peoples litter and disposing(up to a certain point) flag and or remove old barb wire, if the tops are not being removed for firewood then slash the limbs down to the ground and it looks a lot better. Also keeping the skid trails clean so they have "walking paths" is really appreciated. What are some other ideas?

John

 

[RatliffLogging]

john,
You still use skid trails....Not good. I have been using a newer item I have built which is a tracked hydro driven log carrier(1 log at a time). It makes no trail unless the ground is extremely wet and I use it like this. I start in the place deepest in the woods were I will be cutting. I load the logs using 2 come-alongs and ramps onto the carrier, then I try to drive a line using as few of turns as I can to the next spot I will be felling a tree. From there on to the next tree and so on and so on all the time trying to keep turns slow and suttle. Even after moving 100's of logs a week later you will not be able to tell I moved the logs out. The only down side to this is I do most all of my undergrowth clearing the year before as my timber management contracts are 5 year terms this really allows me to keep a truly low impact approach( if it's nasty a year oh well I got next year). I like to take my time. I try to have 5-6 contracts running at all times this way I know I am still busy but can afford to take breaks on properties. Back to the tracked carrier. Anyway on my good logs it really keeps them clean and on my crooked logs it keeps them from flipping around on the ground and tearing up more ground then should be. my carrier will do a 18' Log 24 or so with ease. My area is 80%hardwood and Cedar makes up the rest for the most part.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

I dont see how you can get 18 foot of anything , one at a time or not , out of a timber, and not have a trace of your being there. You make it sound as though you levitate through the woods.A skid trail is very important to many of my clients, as it gives them access to the timber for nature trails, and they enjoy their timber more when they can actually get around in it.In one place you had asked for some input on your web site, well... here is some free advice, You state that you are Kentuckys ONLY low impact logger. That is a statement that is impossible for you to substantiate, as last time I looked Kentucky was a pretty big place. Makes you seem arrogant . So does the " my way is the only superior way to remove timber" attitude I get from your posts here.Maybe its just me , but i give opinions for free when asked.

 

[RatliffLogging]

It is tough but a carrier is 12ft long and 5 ft wide. it's tracks are rubber and it's total weight is 3100lbs. and stands just under 2ft tall. the tracks have a ground contact area of about(120inX18inX2tracks=4320ground contact area) in inches. Then you take total weight loaded which can be as much as 7400lbs or more, divide it by 4320your ground contact area and you have total PSI ground pressure(1.72psi) that is lower then a horse or tractor by a good 4-5psi. The rubber tracks are the kicker though if they were steel they'd tear up everything. I am having a roll og film developed as soon as I use the rest up with pictures of us using the carrier this winter. Keep in mind we don't bring it out until we have removed as much undergrowth as we can the year before.

 

[RatliffLogging]

Horse,

Using rubber tracks only came after I built a unit with steel tracks that lost a track carring a log the was 20in by 16ft. The unit broke a guide roller that caused the lost track. Steel tracks are heavy and trying to re-install one in about 12in of snow was a pain so that summer I went to a rubber design and spent the summer building it. Also the steel tracks got bent by the weight of the log the sheer of the hill and all other factors...I don't think rubber will ever give me these head aches. I hope.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

I would like to see the pics. I have seen the stats on the psi of the horse hoof over the tracked equipment, and the fact is that the horse hoof is exerting the pressure over a miniscule fraction of the area that the machine is, and disturbing far less of the overall ground surface than the machine. I will readily admit that in some situations, a machine is preferable to the team, especially in extremely steep ground, or long distances to the decking site. However, in most applications, using a team from the stump to a main skid trail and another team and cart to the landing is very tough to beat for minimal impact, and leaves the site far more pleasant to be around than any equipment logged site I have ever seen.

 

[Ryan Willock]

I don't see how you even cover expenses like that.

 

[RatliffLogging]

My team on wet ground does enough damage that 2 years ago I stopped using them anytime we weren't in a hard freeze. I have lost 3 differant performance binders due to horse damage.....Only used them cause the land owner wanted them there. Horses are quick and easy in the hard freeze but in the softness of a thaw I get better results with my carrier. Secondly, I get good speed with the carrier and I get a longer work day with it which allows better cost reductions. My team can't do 16-18ft logs that run16in plus on the small end all day in the hills like we have here. I love my horses to much to work them to death...Plus I am a hippy.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

Not sure if you are addressing me or Ratliff? I was wondering, as we talk about trying to eliminate impact while logging. What of these two common stated objections : leaving the tops uncut where they landed, instead of trimming them to reduce the visual mess, is better for the regeneration of saplings when there is heavy deer browse, and stirring up the ground during the harvest operation is beneficial to stimulate sprouting of the dormant seed bank deep in the soil.

 

[RatliffLogging]

diesel over hydro makes me feel good at night....walking behind my hitch kills me.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

Sounds like the damage done in wet conditions was due to a poor judgment call on the logging conditions, not due to the horses. If I tried to log during break up I would make a mess to. Gotta know when to stay out of the woods.

 

[RatliffLogging]

Horse Logger,

I like to do a fall replant on the last year of my contract with a client...State pays for the supplies all I do is put a couple guys in the woods with spud bars and let them go to town. I mix the sapplings prior to giving them out to my guys and I tell them plant away. This way we end up with a more natural mix of future timber.

 

[HORSELOGGER]

What is the average size timber that you are able to get a long term managment contract on? In the early stages are you working on an hourly or per acre basis, where the client is essentially paying you for forestry work, with harvest reciepts to come later? If so, that would be almost impossible to sell here, maybe one in 100 customers .

 

[RatliffLogging]

Horse,
My contracts use to be one year long until 2002. And I also let the land owner make the call on work days. This was a bad call on my part and wasn't a problem until 2002 from 98 til 02 things went good then I had a single land owner with 3 differant contracts ask me to work thru the rainy days to meet his requirements since he was marketing the highend logs himself still on the split but he want control as to the buyers. Then he took me to court saying I did huge damage because I skidded on his say. I had advised him that it was not a good idea but he knew better...you know how that goes. The judge said leave the binders and gave me a bigger split for my time but I will never allow a owner to have say over conditions of when I cut and when we lay low. I still like the owners to have options but I like to give a 5 year contract to protect their land and my binder.....

 

[RatliffLogging]

Horse,
The undergrowth and culling is paid for by the skin of my teeth....selling of firewood and other value added items.....I have gotten good enought in the last 7 years that in 2001 I started offering it all as part of the contract and at no cost to the land owner. I don't mow the under growth but one time durine the contract but it makes a huge differance.

 

[John Ellison]

Horselogger, I see what you mean about the uncut tops protecting new growth from deer but most woods here are full of small hardwood unless there are cattle on the place.
Ratliff, you must be on some fragile soil, sounds like muskeg. We get very few hard freezes here, but you for sure have to stop after a lot of rain and I know its worse in thawing conditions. After two or three months my skid trails look like a deer trail. Like Horselogger said these trails are valuable to the landowner. Seems crazy but I believe that I get more comments on nice walking trails than anything else. I was working with a team of flying mules but decided that I like skid trails better.

John

 

[RatliffLogging]

john,
When I get into cutting the undergrowth and brush out I end up with good walking paths. But not a road for say. I think it's the hippy in me but I like to think the woods like me when I am done.

 

[bwalker]

A small skidder like a JD 440 working a piece of ground in the winter disturbs very little, if any ground. Horse logging is practiced by people up here as a hobby only. You would go hungry trying to live off horse logging. Especially on a trash first cut.
A Gafner Iron mule is another low impact machine that works very well if the ground isnt heavy.

 

[MasterBlaster]

To bad you can't go back and edit that post, eh?

You might appear more intelligent...

 

[DDM]

Hey Guys Pictures Please! I want to see the tracked carrier and the Horse team!