Low impact pre-commercial thinning with a skidsteer - am I nuts?

[KiwiBro]

A Farmi or similar winch with a good 50 HP tractor will get all you need done.

I should probably post a few pics or videos of my 50HP, 3.5t, MFWD tractor with 4t winch and forks with log grab. With 300' of cable I can get wood out of most areas that I don't fancy putting the tyres onto. With 3 snatch blocks, it can haul logs that are too big for it to skid if they are not too far away. I bought new and it has broken down more times than I care to elaborate on. Like you wise heads have noted, it's the down time that sucks the most. Latest was about $10 worth of fuel hoses, cost me two days in lost time (why does gear break when you are on the most isolated spots and the repair shops are shut for the weekend or it's a public holiday?).
Here's where it sucks:
1. only about 1t payload when lifting logs. Even that is not much fun for it when rolling over rough ground.
2. constant risk of spiking tyres/filters, anything where you think sticks would never get to, when rolling over brush/etc.
3. rather too easy to roll it if not really careful. Had it on it's two downhill wheels just the other day when carrying a log out. Was only the other three logs attached to the winch that I was skidding at the time that helped kinda anchor me enough to save me from rolling it. Always nice to learn the limits of myself and gear without breaking anything.
4. had hoped I'd be able to clear and cut a few tracks with it too, but it's a PITA trying to cut dirt and move dirt with it.

On a good day though, it's great. Can drop/top/haul/skid/buck/load or stack enough to pay for everything and then some. Has a heap of other uses too.

 

[OlympicYJ]

I didn't get into the ground clearance and guarding thing but I looked up some Cat Skid Steers. only 8.6 inches.... not very great. All I can say is a farmi winch isn't meant to be industrial and non industrial crap doesn't last as long... The old man is a retired heavy equipment mechanic and one of his favorite sayings is: " the minute a piece of equipment leaves the assembly line it becomes a piece of junk." Sounds contrary to logic but if you think about it for a while it makes sense...

 

[firebrick43]

Don't know much about logging but I do know skidsteers don't belong in the woods, he'll really don't belong of a level lot. Seen one flipped from a small pothole, rolled one myself on a slight incline that had a soft spot. Not fun. Much prefer a cat MTL to a skid steer.

If your going to use a loader to lift decent size logs the tractor need to be bigger than 40 hp. Also tractors with cabs +trees = damaged tractor.

 

[Jim Timber]

I've never intended to skid logs with the skidsteer; only load, push tops around, process firewood, level roads, fill fallen tree divots, post hole auger, snowblow, and whatever else needs doing. A tractor can do all of that, but the FEL on a compact tractor with the same size of a skidsteer wouldn't be able to lift much more than my electric winch on the log arch now. They also don't have the turning radius or breakout force.

Plowing snow is cheaper, but has limitations. I could've paid for the machine this winter if I had a snowblower on one. With plowing you have to have somewhere to shove the snow, with blowing it you just have to have somewhere to aim. As the snow builds up along the sides of a road/driveway you encounter more and more resistance to pushing it off the side. Snowblowers don't have that problem. You can also go right up to a garage door with a snowblower, with a plow you have to raise the plow over the snow and then drop it down by the door and pull back to then shove it off to the side. In my neighborhood, there's several tuck-under garages so you can't plow them out efficiently anyway.

Snowblower on a tractor requires driving in reverse - not something I want to do for miles at a time.

Looked up the 440 skidder again to be sure it's what I thought you were talking about. That size machine is exactly what I don't want in my woods. I can pull 20" 16' long red oak with my atv and you'd never know I was there afterwards.

 

[Plankton]

It seems you have your mind set and not changing from all the good advice here. So I wont try but, I'd wager that you are not going to have very much fun or get very much work done with a skidsteer in the woods... They belong on a landscapers jobsite not on a log landing.

Regardless of size skidders can be very low impact given a good operator, and a tractor the same.

 

[Jim Timber]

I don't think you understand the workflow I envision is all. I can move trees very easily now. It's only when they're at a landing that I'm log jammed.

I'm not doing anything yet either. It may happen as I first thought, or I may break down and have the clear cuts done commercially. Maybe I'll just build my sawmill and make wood for a while. It's all up in the air. I could come out of sedation on the 24th and have no use of my left hand. Then what? I'm waiting and seeing. I don't even know the quantity of wood I have.

 

[slowp]

The landing solution? Either swarp out a bigger landing area, which is hardly "low impact", hot load the logs, or get something that you can make higher decks with.

Those are the choices. Playing logger/forester can be complicated. That's why it takes a few years of experience and even some school time to get going.

 

[Jim Timber]

5.5 acres isn't enough landing? Space for the logs isn't the problem, it's getting them up off the dirt so they don't rot.

I could put junk trees down and roll the logs up onto those, but then I'd have multiple rows of single height logs all over. Maybe that's not so bad?

To answer the end-goal stand age question: It's primarily a single age stand now. There was some cutting done 20yrs ago in the south 40, so that's got some uneven age areas, and there's some wolf trees in the north 40, so that's a little uneven aged.

The only species I'm looking to eliminate is the aspen which is 45 yrs old or so (10-16" DBH). It's fast approaching the age where breakage loss will exceed new growth. Since I don't want to grow another aspen mix stand, the regen in areas where I remove it won't happen and it's planned as such. The other areas I'm clearing will remain clear or will be planted in something like spruce or pine. Only the 1/2 mile 130' wide strip going N/S, where my house goes, and where any other out-buildings go will be cleared of all trees and planted in clover or some other low growing ground cover. I'll likely nuke them with herbicide after brushmowing them.

In the future, the trees will be selectively cut as needed to produce lumber and firewood. It'll be an on-going harvest, not multiple cuts. I can remove just about any tree I want to with the equipment I have now (sans the wolfs - they're huge and would need to be chopped up). It's not fast enough to make a living at doing it, but it's plenty fast enough to make the tree come out of the forest without any bodily harm.

 

[OlympicYJ]

It was not clear that you were only using the skid steer to load. It might do it on a level landing. As far as atv vs skidder... get bigger tires. You are probably causing more compaction with that than a small skidder. Contact patch, contact patch. My math may be a little off but say you have a contact patch of about 2.5 square inches per tire on your arch. Both tires equals 60 square inches. If your 20" 16' log weighs say 800 pounds that's 13.33 psi. An average male only exerts 8 psi and many 100,000 pound logging shovels only have 9psi. The majority of your compaction occurs within the first 3 passes and only compacts slightly more after that. So the first one or two passes you make, you are compacting it heavily. A JD 440 will probably have less ground pressure than your atv but not as low as a shovel. It all depends on your soils however. If you have high soil strength and low bulk density then you will be fine. If however you have already hi bulk density soils compacting it more is not going to help establishment in your stand. There is a difference between disturbance and compaction. Compaction can happen and you'll never know it. Disturbance looks horrible but in reality unless its on a slope and acting as a vector for runoff or has water pooling in it it's not a worry.

 

[Jim Timber]

There's 20' of elevation change across the entire 1/2 mile N/S border where the main clear cut will be. When I say pancake, I mean it.

Compaction up there (it's the highest ground on the parcel) doesn't bother me at all either. The main trails on the property have been in use for decades by atvs and snowmobiles, so they've been pummeled long before I showed up. The high ground is all pretty firm. Some areas on the border of the two 40's are poorly drained, so I do have to be mindful of when I work in them. I've had the wetlands guy out to ensure they're not protected as well - it's all good to go from their side.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Selective cutting is a series of cuts called a cutting cycle, Rotation is for clearcuts. So how big are your "clearcuts"? Sounds like they are more like patch cuts which are typically 3-5 acres. Also I never picked up where you said your landing was 5.5 acres before your last post. That is huge! Slowp is not talking about a landing that size. Unless you have another objective other than a landing don't make one that big. A half acre should be sufficient. Are you planning on leaving your timber out there for quite a while till you get enough for a load? I understand that you aren't worried about the time involved but and there is a but. If you let logs sit long enough to begin rotting you've got some other worries such as checking and staining. Hardwood mills absolutely hate checks and you will lose money hand over fist if you don't get them into the mill before they check especially if you have any peelers.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Snowmobiles will not cause any ground compaction unless they've been summer time drag racing which I doubt. I just included the bit about slope for other folks reading this that don't have flat ground. You could still have issues with 20' but I doubt you will. And I'm not talking about main trails... If you read one of my other posts I said use the existing trails!!! I'm talking about when you go off the trail to get a log and drag it back to the main skid trail. As you stated main trails are already compacted, short of going back and fluffing them they will stay compacted and since you are using them no reason to worry about compaction on those trails at all. If you ever decide to abandon a trail and want to rehabilitate it get in there with a small excavator with some ripping teeth and break it up and it will be just like you were never there.

 

[Gologit]

Unless you have another objective other than a landing don't make one that big. A half acre should be sufficient.

Yup, you're starting to sound just like a forester.. Pretty soon you'll be using Patty's favorite response to any request from a logger...NO!

Dammit, where's "the beating your head against a wall" smily?

 

[Jim Timber]

What remains of the original landing is roughly 1/3 acre. It's gotten encroached with new growth since the last time it was used.

What will develop from both sides of that landing is my future rifle range. So that's the reason it'll be so big. It's just a matter of a slice of trees wiped out from one end to the other. Given it's proximity to the rest of the property, it just makes sense to haul everything back there in the end - it's also where the access to the county road is. The other sites will be much smaller, unless I decide to open up some more patches in the south 40.

I know the snowmobiles didn't do anything. Just saying that those trails have seen a lot of use over the years. Much of my neighbor problems revolve around their being shut out after free reign for so long.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Bob

If you don't need it that big why make er right? I'm not one of those ******** types that will give you a small shirty landing just because I don't think you need the space. Now if you are referencing the objectives part... well yeah everything is about your objectives... plus I've had it pounded into my head for many years now... objective in my mind is the bottom line, everything else is a step to that objective... oops I just made that too simple

 

[Jim Timber]

How long the logs will sit is an unknown. That's why I want them off the ground. I could spend 2 months working and end up with a bunch of firewood and not enough wood to call the trucker.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Yup, you're starting to sound just like a forester.. Pretty soon you'll be using Patty's favorite response to any request from a logger...NO!

Dammit, where's "the beating your head against a wall" smily?

Dmmit Bob you changed wording on me now! Well I am a technical forester... Just have one more semester to go then getting permanently hitched to the ball and chain Anyways I don't tell em no... I just tell em they f$^%ed up and to fix it then shoot the bull for another half hour and leave

 

[OlympicYJ]

I thought you said you were going to be hauling it yourself??? Two months in the winter won't be bad but summertime you better move faster than that or you are gonna lose value. There are times you can poke then other times you gotta get your butt in gear and go.

 

[slowp]

I am one of those types. 1/3 an acre is big. Really big. We often would have a road turn out, with trees cut for swing room, and that's it. Of course, steep ground is very limiting.

I do consider this picture to represent real "low impact" logging. It's easy on the ground, and has a reasonable landing size to boot.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Ugh road decking..... shoulda done more cut bank! okay okay maybe some logs jillpoked in the bank will uh mitigate the shovel ops griping... we need a snoose can smily!!!