Lubrication prior to running a rebuilt saw?

[edisto]

Well, I have an 044 with the jug already on, but not cranked yet. Waiting on intake boot. Took my finger and rubbed a little Kendall Super Blue on the pin, bearings, and wall. I have an 056 MagII waiting on a piston from Canada. I have a 026 jug just out of the dishwasher that I am going to put back together as soon as I finish typing this. I have an 028 waiting on a piston from Greece that shipped Dec. 27 supposedly tied up in customs. And, I have an 056 Super that I am going to tear down in the AM.

I think I will try something different on each and see if I see any difference in how the compression comes up.

May even try some REM OIL.

That's the way to do it.

Thanks to the generosity of Modified Mark, I have 3 Pioneer P28s that I think I can get 2 saws out of. If they need rings, and I can get them, I'll do the "generous P&C lube" vs "light skirt lube" comparison.

 

[edisto]

I did miss that, however the same applies for the rings IMHO.

That they see oil during normal operation? Maybe we're on the same page. The idea is, during break-in, to not exceed the amount they will see during normal operation.

 

[rupedoggy]

rupedoggy I apologize for being rude, you didn't deserve it.

OK. Well it did make me think. If Andy thinks that then others may also. I don't want to appear argumentative, but it must come across that way. I have seen so many threads here that the regular, "what's wrong with my saw", stuff just doesn't interest me much any more. Even though you dressed me down there were some came to my defense. I appreciate it, even though I am prepared to stand on my own. As Nikko said "I'm not always right". BTW I never said I put my saws together without some oil.

 

[fidiro]

I just did a ring on a 7311 and I threw some oil in the bottom end(probably about 1/4" of oil puddle down there. I then put some oil on a clean towel and wiped the inside of jug with it and piston. Put it all together and dropped a little more through the plug hole. I had the pull assembly still off so I spun flywheel freely in both directions. Put plug back on and flipped saw over and did it again until it started coming out of muffler.

Was this way over oiled? Absulutely. I was actually told that hydrolock may occur. Will I ever do another rebuild without lubing, no. Will I lube less next time? Probably do the same thing and but just flip saw over and drain all the excess off before assembling jug and drop just a few into plug hole. If there's still too much after draining it will burn off during hard operation.

I didn't bother asking here about oiling before reassembling mine because it felt and feels like the right thing to do, using some oil during assembly. I used straight synblend 2 cycle, no gas. I don't know but using gas mix to lube after a rebuild just doesn't seem right to me, it may just work fine but to each his own.


I have started saw and idled it for a few minutes and it smoked hard for a few seconds and stopped. Running 40:1 mix. While idling I turned saw upside down to let any more oil from bottom end come out better.

 

[roncoinc]

Coming back to this thread and reading again really got me to reconsidering what i thot of the expertise of some members..
am i the only one that thinks that maybe after the saw starts the 50-1 mix may very quickly "water" down the excess oil and burn it off so quick it makes no diff ??
the NEW fuel mix will get behind the rings,get in the bearings and bushings and everyplace and wash the excess out and burn it in a matter of seconds !!
it aint like that oil gonna stick there and gum up or make carbon..
some like to run 40-1,,WTH !!! a few tanks of that is a LOT more oil than some used in a rebuild ..
think about it,,say,10k rpm's,,first start,engine not even warm yet,,incoming fuel mixes with what oil is on the parts and burns of in ?? how many seconds ?? a new charge of mix cleaning the oil out 10k times a minit will wash anything out pretty fast..no time for carbon build up or a sticking factor.. it's all a "wash" as far as i'm concerned......that oil is MADE to mix with gas and burn clean..
ALSO,,consider what just running the saw a bit "rich" does to carbon buildup,etc.
a little oil to start aint nuthin

 

[edisto]

Coming back to this thread and reading again really got me to reconsidering what i thot of the expertise of some members..
am i the only one that thinks that maybe after the saw starts the 50-1 mix may very quickly "water" down the excess oil and burn it off so quick it makes no diff ??
the NEW fuel mix will get behind the rings,get in the bearings and bushings and everyplace and wash the excess out and burn it in a matter of seconds !!
it aint like that oil gonna stick there and gum up or make carbon..
some like to run 40-1,,WTH !!! a few tanks of that is a LOT more oil than some used in a rebuild ..
think about it,,say,10k rpm's,,first start,engine not even warm yet,,incoming fuel mixes with what oil is on the parts and burns of in ?? how many seconds ?? a new charge of mix cleaning the oil out 10k times a minit will wash anything out pretty fast..no time for carbon build up or a sticking factor.. it's all a "wash" as far as i'm concerned......that oil is MADE to mix with gas and burn clean..
ALSO,,consider what just running the saw a bit "rich" does to carbon buildup,etc.
a little oil to start aint nuthin

I don't think anyone is recommending not lubing the bearings, and the issue with lubing the piston is not carbon build up or gumming...it is glazing.

 

[Andyshine77]

That they see oil during normal operation? Maybe we're on the same page. The idea is, during break-in, to not exceed the amount they will see during normal operation.

I think we do agree for the most part. One must understand as roncoinc has mentioned, the incoming charge is always washing the piston, piston rings and bottom end down. Nothing is static. So to me someone that's worked on a few two cycle engines here and there, over oiling an engine during assembly makes little sense. Hydro locking an engine would require an excessive amount of oil on top of the piston and in the combustion chamber.

 

[Tzed250]

So the incoming charge doesn't clean the intake skirt?? Every saw I've taken apart, stock, new or modified has had a good coating of oil on both the intake and exhaust skirt. This is what I like to see BTW.

Tzed250 how long will the ring glide over the oil? I think maybe you're over thinking this one.

Not overthinking a thing there Andre old buddy. Piston rings don't need oil, in fact it goes against one of the main purposes of the rings. See, the thing of it is, I learned about leaving the rings dry from a factory Kawasaki mechanic entrusted with the care of a $60,000 MXer. I have put top ends together dry(save for a smear on the skirt) for more than 20 years now. My compression results are always great. The big thing about all of this is that I don't give a flip about how someone else puts a saw together. Drop it in a drum of Rotella as far as I am concerned. If the oil had to be there I would see failures. They don't happen. Mazola anyone?


.

 

[Andyshine77]

Glad to hear you don't care about how anyone puts a saw together, I do and that's why I'm on this site and in the chainsaw forum.

Anyway I do understand the ring mostly just scrapes the oil off of the cylinder walls, but some oil/lubrication is needed, without some lubrication the ring would simply eat away at the cylinder. Would it not?

 

[fidiro]

I over did it because I was actually more concerned about the bearings/rod than the ring, BUT still concerns me to dry ring it into the cylinder. At least a little film of oil with a rag to get the new top end parts from rubbing against metal to metal with no lube.

 

[Tzed250]

Glad to hear you don't care about how anyone puts a saw together, I do and that's why I'm on this site and in the chainsaw forum.

Anyway I do understand the ring mostly just scrapes the oil off of the cylinder walls, but some oil/lubrication is needed, without some lubrication the ring would simply eat away at the cylinder. Would it not?

No, it would not. Ever seen a Nik top end with good rings and the plating worn through? The liner is super hard, harder than the rings. The rings will spend their whole life surrounded by a liquid that is only 2% oil, the other 98% is a solvent. That is why the rings don't need 100% oil on them at the start. That is over oiling.

Funny how you say you are on this site to help, but when Rupedoggy expresses his opinion you blast him into next week. Talk about a high horse....


.

 

[edisto]

I think we do agree for the most part. One must understand as roncoinc has mentioned, the incoming charge is always washing the piston, piston rings and bottom end down. Nothing is static. So to me someone that's worked on a few two cycle engines here and there, over oiling an engine during assembly makes little sense. Hydro locking an engine would require an excessive amount of oil on top of the piston and in the combustion chamber.

You must cut your intakes wider than I do.

The problem is with excess oil on the cylinder preventing the ring from fully pressing against the cylinder wall.

Glad to hear you don't care about how anyone puts a saw together, I do and that's why I'm on this site and in the chainsaw forum.

I'm pretty sure he meant that you were free to ignore his advice. Do you feel differently?

Anyway I do understand the ring mostly just scrapes the oil off of the cylinder walls,

Not very effectively if there are excessive amounts there.

but some oil/lubrication is needed, without some lubrication the ring would simply eat away at the cylinder. Would it not?

That layer of oil lies in the irregularities (in the grooves on a honed cylinder). For the ring to properly glide on oil from the irregularities, it needs to bed in properly to wear the projecting irregularities down to where they properly support the ring.

You have to stop thinking in absolutes. It is not a matter of some oil or no oil, it is a matter of the right amount of oil.

 

[Andyshine77]

You have to stop thinking in absolutes. It is not a matter of some oil or no oil, it is a matter of the right amount of oil.

No kidding my whole point is that the excess oil gets used almost immediately, so in reality and within reason when assembling an engine coat everything with oil as it does no harm.

 

[GA_Boy]

BLAH FREAKING BLAH FREAKING GLAZING BLAH BLAH!!!!!!!!

the general consensus is to use a little 2-stroke oil on the wrist pin, rod end bearing and on the piston. Make poll or something. Sounds like a bunch of girls arguing about who's skirt is cuter.:deadhorse:

 

[rms61moparman]

Y'all do whatever you want, I will continue to apply a light film of two stroke oil to the piston, rings AND cylinder wall during reassembly!
I have never had any of the problems mentioned in this thread and don't expect to.

I'll be hanged if I'm gonna slide a $125.00 piston and rings into a $200.00 cylinder dry!!!


Mike

 

[Andyshine77]

No, it would not. Ever seen a Nik top end with good rings and the plating worn through? The liner is super hard, harder than the rings. The rings will spend their whole life surrounded by a liquid that is only 2% oil, the other 98% is a solvent. That is why the rings don't need 100% oil on them at the start. That is over oiling.

Funny how you say you are on this site to help, but when Rupedoggy expresses his opinion you blast him into next week. Talk about a high horse....


.

Nikasil cylinder coating is designed to hold oil in it it's pores to aid in lubrication. I never suggested the rings need a constant bath of oil and I never suggested that cylinder coatings are softer than the rings. You guys are over thinking this, and you are both arrogant as hell.

 

[Andyshine77]

it is a matter of the right amount of oil.

No really??? you're so smart.

 

[PA Plumber]

Just finished up a great cosmetic condition Husky 359 this evening.

New p/c, cylinder gasket, Zama carb, carb boot, manifold partition, steel boot clamp, non-cat muffler, and yessir, just a tad of Rem Oil.

Saw started in 6 pulls.

Tiddled with the carb a little and ready to drop it in some wood.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I have to say lovingly that I think you are all full of ####.

It would be illogical to think that the cylinder needs any more lubricant on it that it's going to have in the next billion revolutions.

But, using a lubricant that is convenient and easy and thinking that somehow it's going to make a difference ten million revolutions down the road is just ridiculous.

I'm not a big time builder, but I do two or three a month.

I cut a lot of wood and it's been a long time since I used a saw that I didn't rebuild.

So far, they all run like hell. Hard to argue with something that works.

 

[Andyshine77]

BLAH FREAKING BLAH FREAKING GLAZING BLAH BLAH!!!!!!!!

the general consensus is to use a little 2-stroke oil on the wrist pin, rod end bearing and on the piston. Make poll or something. Sounds like a bunch of girls arguing about who's skirt is cuter.:deadhorse:

Nope two girls I wear pants.:mad-tongue: