Meteor Cylinder Quality

[Andyshine77]

Are you for real?? What does that have to do with a cylinder.

The composition of the metal. I used bearings as an example.

I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.

Like I said, if you have no other option and you know how to install them correctly, sure give one a try. If you have the means there's on decision, go with oem. When it comes to porting one of these kits, I'd give it a try if it were free, but I rather run a stock oem top end on a work saw. Why? because I know it will last.

 

[Andyshine77]

I don't think machining marks and alloys of the metal of the components is comparing apples to apples. This thread was started based on photographs of beveling and port shape, right? Brad may be 100% correct; he has a lot of experience building saws. I'm just saying lets see a little more substance before we continue the debate.

I've seen parts fail, I believe part of the cause was do to poor quality materials. When you compound both issues the answer "to me" is clear.

 

[parrisw]

Just for the record, I have a saw with a ching chong top end on it, which came from Matt (MCW). That saw is incredibly strong and works very very well.

So this argument that AM top ends don't make power doesn't fly here.

Which top end did you get from Matt? I've had a few and they've been good, but I didn't run any of them stock.

 

[Andyshine77]

Which top end did you get from Matt? I've had a few and they've been good, but I didn't run any of them stock.

The BB7900 kit Matt sent me looked nice, and he said it ran pretty strong. That reminds me I still have some work to do on that one.:msp_wink:

 

[albert]

The composition of the metal. I used bearings as an example.

I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.

Like I said, if you have no other option and you know how to install them correctly, sure give one a try. If you have the means there's on decision, go with oem. When it comes to porting one of these kits, I'd give it a try if it were free, but I rather run a stock oem top end on a work saw. Why? because I know it will last.

I don't sell any parts. But too much bs and flip flopping without giving them a fair shake. Truth is money is real tight for many now, and agreeing to do a fair eval on a kit and giving it a quick look and saying still junk is not what most were looking for, particulary the supplier of the kit and a guy that is modding them. Everyone has an opinion, which is fine, but be responsible about it. Many questions were not answered earlier on and some were answered with a condescending attitude.

 

[parrisw]

The BB7900 kit Matt sent me looked nice, and he said it ran pretty strong. That reminds me I still have some work to do on that one.:msp_wink:

So far that was the best kit I've gotten from him.

 

[Andyshine77]

I don't sell any parts. But too much bs and flip flopping without giving them a fair shake. Truth is money is real tight for many now, and agreeing to do a fair eval on a kit and giving it a quick look and saying still junk is not what most were looking for, particulary the supplier of the kit and a guy that is modding them. Everyone has an opinion, which is fine, but be responsible about it. Many questions were not answered earlier on and some were answered with a condescending attitude.

Sorry if I sounded condescending, I do that from time to time. Anyway maybe you want them to be better than they really are, I understand that. Not so long ago I actually had a more positive attitude about these kits, but the more and more I worked with them, the more my attitude changed for the negative. On top of that I'm increasingly frustrated with all of the Asian garbage we're forced to buy these days, it's really getting under my skin.

 

[albert]

Sorry if I sounded condescending, I do that from time to time. Anyway maybe you want them to be better than they really are, I understand that. Not so long ago I actually had a more positive attitude about these kits, but the more and more I worked with them, the more my attitude changed for the negative. On top of that I'm increasingly frustrated with all of the Asian garbage we're forced to buy these days, it's really getting under my skin.

Thanks but it wasn't you I refered to. I agree about alot of the asian stuff. But realistically, an aftermarket kit that is equal to or better than oe at this price aint gonna happen.

 

[Andyshine77]

Thanks but it wasn't you I refered to. I agree about alot of the asian stuff. But realistically, an aftermarket kit that is equal to or better than oe at this price aint gonna happen.

Probably not, but it sure would be nice.

 

[LowVolt]

Thanks but it wasn't you I refered to. I agree about alot of the asian stuff. But realistically, an aftermarket kit that is equal to or better than oe at this price aint gonna happen.

And why is that? From the reading it sounds like they got the piston spot on. What gives with cylinder production?

 

[bcorradi]

How much does the "lesser" build quality car cost???
How does it compare to a new Ford XXXX?

The OEM top end kits for MOST average saws are around $200.00.
The aftermarket kits that I've been buying are around $95.00.

If the "lesser fit and finish but equal in operation" car is ~ 45% the cost of the new "super fit and finish" cars, the answer is probably going to be yes, I would buy the cheaper model.

But of course, I drive Dodges so obviously the looks of a vehicle are a "way down the list" second to it being strong and reliable, with low repair costs!!!:msp_biggrin:


Mike

Your completely right if you are a homeowner joe you can probably get enough longevity in one of those aftermarket kits that u wouldn't notice any lack of quality in the quality. I guess your right at home with dodge so I see how u don't mind AM P&C kits. My best buddy was a master mopar mechanic for 22 years and loved dodge...but he can't even stomach buying one anymore. I can't remember what era of dodge minivan, but he could change the tranny in 45 mins because of how many times he had to do it. You don't live in as cold of a climate as us so u may not have seen all the tranny issues we have with dodges, but their trucks that came out in 94' were no better. If u like dodge trucks and are happy with them you will be very happy with subordinate chainsaw p&c's too.

 

[MCW]

Unfortunately I think this has turned into an Aftermarket vs. OEM thread.
It should actually be a "Crappy Quality Aftermarket vs. OEM thread". I think we can all agree that a good aftermarket kit has the potential to be a lot better than a crap OEM kit as many of us have seen.
The funny thing is that some builders have been quite happy to port and modify crappy OEM cylinders and get good results yet still tarnish aftermarket with the same old brush. With some of the comments I actually think it is more anti Chinese than anti aftermarket.
As mentioned if you are tidying up ports and doing some machining etc then there is absolutely no reason why a good quality aftermarket kit shouldn't compete with an OEM kit from a power and performance point of view. Yes there may be some squish and compression concerns with many aftermarket kits but those with their butts firmly planted on the OEM side of the fence seem to forget that many new Stihls and Huskys are coming with about 150psi from the factory anyway - hardly what you would call high compression.
if the same scrutiny was placed on OEM kits I think most of us would get a wise little surprise up our arses. I think we should also look around at the amount of OEM kits that have failed after porting and rebuilding. 9 times out of 10 it is not the fault of the kit but the way a circlip was installed or the fact exhaust ports were made too wide. I can't help but think if the same thing happened on an aftermarket kit the fingers would first be pointed at the kit and not the builder who quite simply stuffed it up.

There is however one thing that people are overlooking with aftermarket kits which I think is quite possibly the most important aspect and that is the lifespan of the Nikasil plating. I don't think anybody here can say that a Mahle P&C wouldn't be good for at least 1000 hours if looked after. I have seen early generation MS660 BB kits come back from test saws with only 100 or so hours on it and the plating is already completely shot.
These same kits also exhibited unusual ring wear indicating the bore wasn't square as well.
I can also say that a few of the 395XP big bore kits I have sold have gone into full time firewood cutter's saws and have many 100's (maybe 1000's?) of hours on them without a hitch. These guys have some sort of freaky genetic ability to wreck saws within minutes so that says something.

I do however think that the anti aftermarket aspect of this thread has turned into a bit of a witch hunt which has blanketed all AM kits as being crap.
If I had the time or even gave half an arse I could go down my shed now and take photos of every single aftermarket P&C I have simply to show that if you keep on top of your suppliers enforcing that you won't accept garbage then the end result will be better quality kits being supplied.

The fact of the matter is that when dealing with the Chinese you simply HAVE to check every kit. If you don't complain and constantly keep on them then trust me the only result will be a decline in quality and a lot of time spent replacing kits (which costs YOU money as you WILL not get a refund from the Chinese!). The Chinese will start to substitute lower quality components the second you let your guard down - it has happened to me. I have learnt...

For the record good power can be gotten out of the better quality aftermarket kits. This is already being achieved on the quiet in the Australian racing scene. Another factor is the price - although I don't race it is for the good of the sport to make it affordable and get as many people involved as we can. The top runners are likely to always be running OEM as cost is generally not a factor and if money is no object then everybody would prefer to run Mahle etc. Also remember that in Australia an OEM kit and labour to fit it is a similar cost to you guys in the states buying the whole damn saw!
If you guys had to pay for OEM what we do in Australia you'd all be on the aftermarket bandwagon. The aftermarket kits I have sold at good prices would have kept many guys warm for winter when otherwise they wouldn't have been able to afford to get their saw fixed.

I can't find the photo now or even remember the customer's name but he had a 372XP that he straight gassed. He bought one of my big bore kits on eBay and emailed me about 12 months later with a photo of a big tree he was cutting up for firewood while his son was helping load the split wood. He actually thanked me 12 months later and said the saw was still running like new. Certainly beats getting abused

Also remember to replace the rings in any aftermarket kit if you want to ensure it is going to last. The one thing that we CAN all agree on is that the supplied rings are crap

 

[watsonr]

Unfortunately I think this has turned into an Aftermarket vs. OEM thread.
It should actually be a "Crappy Quality Aftermarket vs. OEM thread". I think we can all agree that a good aftermarket kit has the potential to be a lot better than a crap OEM kit as many of us have seen.
The funny thing is that some builders have been quite happy to port and modify crappy OEM cylinders and get good results yet still tarnish aftermarket with the same old brush. With some of the comments I actually think it is more anti Chinese than anti aftermarket.
As mentioned if you are tidying up ports and doing some machining etc then there is absolutely no reason why a good quality aftermarket kit shouldn't compete with an OEM kit from a power and performance point of view. Yes there may be some squish and compression concerns with many aftermarket kits but those with their butts firmly planted on the OEM side of the fence seem to forget that many new Stihls and Huskys are coming with about 150psi from the factory anyway - hardly what you would call high compression.
if the same scrutiny was placed on OEM kits I think most of us would get a wise little surprise up our arses. I think we should also look around at the amount of OEM kits that have failed after porting and rebuilding. 9 times out of 10 it is not the fault of the kit but the way a circlip was installed or the fact exhaust ports were made too wide. I can't help but think if the same thing happened on an aftermarket kit the fingers would first be pointed at the kit and not the builder who quite simply stuffed it up.

There is however one thing that people are overlooking with aftermarket kits which I think is quite possibly the most important aspect and that is the lifespan of the Nikasil plating. I don't think anybody here can say that a Mahle P&C wouldn't be good for at least 1000 hours if looked after. I have seen early generation MS660 BB kits come back from test saws with only 100 or so hours on it and the plating is already completely shot.
These same kits also exhibited unusual ring wear indicating the bore wasn't square as well.
I can also say that a few of the 395XP big bore kits I have sold have gone into full time firewood cutter's saws and have many 100's (maybe 1000's?) of hours on them without a hitch. These guys have some sort of freaky genetic ability to wreck saws within minutes so that says something.

I do however think that the anti aftermarket aspect of this thread has turned into a bit of a witch hunt which has blanketed all AM kits as being crap.
If I had the time or even gave half an arse I could go down my shed now and take photos of every single aftermarket P&C I have simply to show that if you keep on top of your suppliers enforcing that you won't accept garbage then the end result will be better quality kits being supplied.

The fact of the matter is that when dealing with the Chinese you simply HAVE to check every kit. If you don't complain and constantly keep on them then trust me the only result will be a decline in quality and a lot of time spent replacing kits (which costs YOU money as you WILL not get a refund from the Chinese!). The Chinese will start to substitute lower quality components the second you let your guard down - it has happened to me. I have learnt...

For the record good power can be gotten out of the better quality aftermarket kits. This is already being achieved on the quiet in the Australian racing scene. Another factor is the price - although I don't race it is for the good of the sport to make it affordable and get as many people involved as we can. The top runners are likely to always be running OEM as cost is generally not a factor and if money is no object then everybody would prefer to run Mahle etc. Also remember that in Australia an OEM kit and labour to fit it is a similar cost to you guys in the states buying the whole damn saw!
If you guys had to pay for OEM what we do in Australia you'd all be on the aftermarket bandwagon. The aftermarket kits I have sold at good prices would have kept many guys warm for winter when otherwise they wouldn't have been able to afford to get their saw fixed.

I can't find the photo now or even remember the customer's name but he had a 372XP that he straight gassed. He bought one of my big bore kits on eBay and emailed me about 12 months later with a photo of a big tree he was cutting up for firewood while his son was helping load the split wood. He actually thanked me 12 months later and said the saw was still running like new. Certainly beats getting abused

Also remember to replace the rings in any aftermarket kit if you want to ensure it is going to last. The one thing that we CAN all agree on is that the supplied rings are crap

WOW.... I thought he called out to not buy Meteor kits.. because I push aftermarket kits to unsuspecting buyers that deserved to hear the truth.. and felt like it needed a response being the new site sponsor selling said kits and at a darn good price!

I agree, aftermarket kits are what they are, a viable option for those looking for that option. Every product has a good and bad side, not just aftermarket as is seemingly starting to be portrayed here..... I sell aftermarket kits the same as you. Thanks for that insight.... Great post!

The pistons come with Caber rings, they are pretty good, did you mean the clips to hold the pin on? Those are crap!

 

[MCW]

WOW.... I thought he called out to not buy Meteor kits.. because I push aftermarket kits to unsuspecting buyers that deserved to hear the truth.. and felt like it needed a response being the new site sponsor selling said kits and at a darn good price!

I agree, aftermarket kits are what they are, a viable option for those looking for that option. Every product has a good and bad side, not just aftermarket as is seemingly starting to be portrayed here..... I sell aftermarket kits the same as you. Thanks for that insight.... Great post!

The pistons come with Caber rings, they are pretty good, did you mean the clips to hold the pin on? Those are crap!

I've been reading all of the comments made about aftermarket kits in general in a few recent threads on the topic as many of the replies and comments have stated that all of the aftermarket kits need work. That is absolute crap and if they are saying that then they haven't been looking at the right kits or more than likely have their blinkers on - I have sold well over 100 kits to people that have done exactly the "Plug And Play" routine with no problems and absolutely no complaints. A number of these are professional users including numerous MS260 44.7mm kits to Australian arborists. Despite selling over 100 kits around 30 extras went out for free to other AS members to test on saw models that I didn't have access to. Some of these kits did have issues such as the early gen MS660BB kits and the early 372XP BB kits. I worked very closely with my supplier to ensure that a different manufacturer was found. Sure I ended up paying an extra USD$10 a kit but it was well worth it and these models are now some of the nicest AM kits you'll see.
I did have one MS460 BB kit sold on eBay that hooked a ring and I replaced that immediately - it was one that got past my "Quality Control" program with a dodgey exhaust bevel (I don't sell those kits anymore).
As far as my Caber ring comments I meant the general aftermarket kits like mine, not necessarily Meteor. If the Meteors come with Cabers then that is definately a positive over other aftermarket P&C's
There are a number of good saw builders on AS who aren't sponsors and don't post threads every 5 minutes on their work that are building some pretty mean and reliable saws with aftermarket top ends - not necessarily supplied by me either. A number of them are Bailey's kits. I won't name them here but I'm sure they'll chime in if they want to.
I don't blame you for replying like you did watsonr as a certain thread conveniently appeared within a few minutes of yourself and Mastermind starting to advertise the Meteor kits.

I think a few people are hoping that if you throw enough mud it will stick but I'm here to wipe some of that mud off. The old "supporting the Chinese" mentality also doesn't stack up considering the amount of Chinese made OEM gear now coming already fitted to big name saws. Has anybody noticed that the price of a new Stihl saw didn't drop despite the P&C not having Mahle stamped on the side any more and the fact the Zama carb has China printed all over it? Anybody know where the MS170's are made now? I hate the amount of Chinese gear flooding the world too but last time I checked aftermarket P&C's weren't ever made in the US or Australia...

 

[thomas1]

I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.

What if your a guy who doesn't sell these kits, but competes with guys that do, does that make your opinion biased? Seems you'd have a vested interested in the competition not selling many of these.

 

[blsnelling]

What if your a guy who doesn't sell these kits, but competes with guys that do, does that make your opinion biased? Seems you'd have a vested interested in the competition not selling many of these.

You're way off base there Thomas. Randy and I do not compete for work, and that's a fact. Quite the opposite is true. Of course, when you're a troll only looking to stir the pot, you don't care about the truth!

 

[MCW]

Just for the record, I have a saw with a ching chong top end on it, which came from Matt (MCW). That saw is incredibly strong and works very very well.

So this argument that AM top ends don't make power doesn't fly here.

Which top end did you get from Matt? I've had a few and they've been good, but I didn't run any of them stock.

Hey Will I can't remember which top end he bought either

The BB7900 kit Matt sent me looked nice, and he said it ran pretty strong. That reminds me I still have some work to do on that one.:msp_wink:

That was already a strong runner out of the box Andy - no need to stick it on a lathe or hit it with a Dremel. If it makes you feel better it was right up there with the first 7900 Mahle top end that Brad ported for me.

So far that was the best kit I've gotten from him.

And then you had to go and wreck it by porting it

 

[thomas1]

You're way off base there Thomas. Randy and I do not compete for work, and that's a fact. Quite the opposite is true. Of course, when you're a troll only looking to stir the pot, you don't care about the truth!

BS, BS.

Seems you have a hard time identifying the truth. Luckily, it's not that hard for most people to see.

 

[MCW]

I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.

You're way off base there Thomas. Randy and I do not compete for work, and that's a fact. Quite the opposite is true. Of course, when you're a troll only looking to stir the pot, you don't care about the truth!

I don't think that Thomas is a troll Brad. I think he was referring to Andy's post about aftermarket P&C sellers being biased with their comments and vice versa.
If somebody heaps 100% praise on aftermarket P&C's does that make them a less reliable source of information than somebody who has nothing but crap to lay on them?

At least I'd like to think I'm honest enough to have made comments supporting both sides of the argument. I have some really nice kits here but have also had models that I will never touch again (MS460 BB for example). There wasn't anything majorly wrong with these kits from a porter's point of view but they could not be simply bolted on without potentially hooking rings and snapping the top out of the piston.

Maybe have a look at the 6401BB kit that Andy has and get back to me. I bet you'll be able to find something wrong with it because you would set out to find something wrong with it. If it had Mahle cast on the side you probably wouldn't give it a second glance and simply start porting away happily.

Please don't think this is personal Brad (or Andy!) as it's not but watsonr and mastermind should not have been placed in the position where they have had to defend themselves against the quality of the Meteor kits - it seemed to me that this thread popped up basically the second that watsonr and mastermind started advertising the Meteor kits. Whether it was a coincidence or not isn't the point.

As a saw builder Brad (and as me being one of your very happy customers!) it is your right to only port and run OEM cylinders and you make some good points. Unfortunately some of the comments you posted made it sound like any other builders who are modifying aftermarket top ends are somehow doing their customers a disservice by not running 100% OEM.

 

[WoodChuck'r]

What the......?! :msp_blink:


I just saw this thread about 25 minutes ago for the first time. I just casually voted no (but without having a heavy stature on the word "NO" - it was more like "nah" than anything else). Then I went through and read through the whole thing.


Had I of read all this first, I never woulda voted...... :beat_brick: