Meteor Cylinder Quality

[indiansprings]

If the cylinder was re-worked by Mastermind and he gave it the green light, I would have no issue bolting it on a saw. As others have stated the vast majority of saw users only care if the saw will run and cut wood they could care less what brand is stamped on the cylinder only, they only care that it runs and cuts the wood that keeps their family warm. I'd say over 50% of our customers could not afford oem cylinders to rebuild their saws, if fact since I've been involved with the dealership we've only ordered one replacement oem cylinder and piston, for a pristine 036 Pro that the owner had straight gassed, I'm guessing the saw had less than twenty hours total run time, truly a like new saw. We've only sold a handfull of used pistons and jugs. The majority just by a used saw as cheap as they can or by a 290. I've recommed a site sponsor to those who can't afford any other option, the 1% of the people who represent AS don't realize who the real saw users are or how they are hurting economically. Yes, the quality could and should be improved as much as possible, but for those who just need firewood to provide for their family as long as they bolt up and run and give the saw a decent service life how good is good enough?
I also see the market for the units that Randy ports and blueprints, it gives the guys who can't afford 250.00 plus shipping and downtime a nice option, they can order a kit for a fraction of the price, install it themselves and go, I have no doubt Randy has the integrity to make sure they are top notch before he puts his name on them.

 

[blsnelling]

WOW ..... I go to sea an a US Navy warship for a couple days and come back here to see all the HUB-BUB.. expecting to see something, what I do see is.... an UN-complete comparison.

I see pictures of a cylinder, lines drawn on the thing just like a guy about to do a port job would do.. I think? I'm not a builder, I don't offer ported saws and wouldn't know what to do, to even begin to do a job like Randy, Brad, or Jeremy would do. That's what they get paid to do...... however.

Page 3, post #44


That was the deal. Draw all the lines you want, tell me the width is wrong, the bevel isn't perfect, chamber is reversed, the piston should NEVER touch the crown (if it does, we have a problem), the ports don't match..... yada, yada yada...

I don't care what you do to make it acceptable for you to be proud of before it leaves your shop.... and have your name on it... That's why you get paid to PORT saws, I get paid to sell cylinders!

I did my part, sent a kit to your door for comparison, direct from the factory without interference what-so-ever...... It's not done yet.....

Did you put the saw together to measure squish? Does the timing of that cylinder compare to OEM? Does the saw make good compression? Does the saw run comparable to a stock saw? Did you time the cuts to compare a stock OEM saw to this cylinder and piston? I know you mentioned that you didn't have a stock OEM for comparison, you have done other threads with documents to support the before timing numbers to use. You do have old video comparing stock to your ported timed cut videos to use.... and could probably make marks on an OEM cylinder and tear it apart just like you did with this one!



This cylinder won't leave your shop with your name on it... OK , You don't like the way it looks and you don't like the way an OEM cylinder is either... but you never timed it, installed it, ran it, tested it.... You drew some lines on it and gave your opinion of what it should be.... it's not done yet Brad. I never asked for you to bless off on this kit, I never asked for you to put your name on it, I never asked for you to sell the kits or anything of that nature... just a test and an evaluation.



It's what this thread is about... isn't it?? Seriously, it does matter. It matters to all the guys who don't port there own saws, to the guys who can't afford one of your port jobs, the guys who need to save a couple bucks to get the job done
without spending every last cent they scraped together to buy a OEM cylinder.



Did the kit perform close to the OEM part.... we may never know now will we... That Sir, would be for the greater good of this community! :msp_wink:

Thank you for your time.

Randy Watson

A deal's a deal. I'll make it happen. I don't have any stock 460 cylinders here, but my Dad does have a bone stock 046, other than a modded muffler. I'll use the same muffler on both.

Again, the difference here lies in our perspectives. From your perspective, if it runs and makes decent power, it's all good. That would be the case for 99.9% of the users out there. From that perspective, why make them any better. They're good enough as is. From my perspective, it's a whole different ball game. I'm admittedly a 1%er

It may take a little time to make it happen, but I will do the stock comparison. That's only fair to your perspective.

 

[stihl sawing]

Geez guys, These threads have turned into a "who's the better builder thread" Use the one you like but please don't bash the other guy cause he does something different that you don't. Let's not make this a who's better thread, Nothing wrong with competition but the insults is not part of competing.

 

[blsnelling]

If the cylinder was re-worked by Mastermind and he gave it the green light, I would have no issue bolting it on a saw. As others have stated the vast majority of saw users only care if the saw will run and cut wood they could care less what brand is stamped on the cylinder only, they only care that it runs and cuts the wood that keeps their family warm. I'd say over 50% of our customers could not afford oem cylinders to rebuild their saws, if fact since I've been involved with the dealership we've only ordered one replacement oem cylinder and piston, for a pristine 036 Pro that the owner had straight gassed, I'm guessing the saw had less than twenty hours total run time, truly a like new saw. We've only sold a handfull of used pistons and jugs. The majority just by a used saw as cheap as they can or by a 290. I've recommed a site sponsor to those who can't afford any other option, the 1% of the people who represent AS don't realize who the real saw users are or how they are hurting economically. Yes, the quality could and should be improved as much as possible, but for those who just need firewood to provide for their family as long as they bolt up and run and give the saw a decent service life how good is good enough?
I also see the market for the units that Randy ports and blueprints, it gives the guys who can't afford 250.00 plus shipping and downtime a nice option, they can order a kit for a fraction of the price, install it themselves and go, I have no doubt Randy has the integrity to make sure they are top notch before he puts his name on them.

I agree with you entirely! I would trust ANYTHING coming out of Randy's shop. Any work that I don't want, which is all of it right now, gets referred to Randy. In my extraverted over reacting way, I think it's come across that I'm attacking Randy. Nothing could be further from the truth. Randy, I'm sorry if it has come across that way.

 

[Andyshine77]

I would run the kit as recieved. Then knock it if it didn't perform close to oem. The intakes look much different between the kits. Casting flash and beveling most likely make little difference is how it runs. Some think it has to be pristine looking to make power, I have seen and run cylinders that the porting looked like it was done by a blind guy with a chisel, but ran very strong. We all have seen beautiful looking porting, bevels, no flash, that ran worse than stock. Some of these pristine looking jobs blew on their first run. These kits cost way less than oe so if they run with or very close to oe and hold up, whats the problem? The kit was sent to Brad to check out, why would he not install it as recieved and degree it and run it? Brad seems like a guy who wouldn't use a vacuum stock, so what is he wishing for? He is going to grind and reshape all the ports anyhow.

I can't agree with this at all. Say you go to buy a new car. The finders are misaligned, the finish has orange peel, and the interior rattles like a tin can filled with a bucks worth of pennies, but it drives fine a will get you from point A to point B. Would you still buy the car? If you're a Chevy guy please refrain from answering the question.:msp_biggrin:

What you see on the surface is a good indicator of what's on the inside, and the quality of materials used. I've seen all I need to know about these kits, from porosity in the castings, to contamination in the materiel itself.

The kits are a CHEAP option nothing more.

 

[FATGUY]

I can't agree with this at all. Say you go to buy a new car. The finders are misaligned, the finish has orange peel, and the interior rattles like a tin can filled with a bucks worth of pennies, but it drives fine a will get you from point A to point B. Would you still buy the car? If you're a Chevy guy please refrain from answer the question.:msp_biggrin:

What you see on the surface is a good indicator of what's on the inside, and the quality of materials used. I've seen all I need to know about these kits, from porosity in the castings, to contamination in the materiel itself.

The kits are a CHEAP option nothing more.

:taped:

 

[edisto]

:taped:

C'mon Nik. You know he's right...

 

[rms61moparman]

I can't agree with this at all. Say you go to buy a new car. The finders are misaligned, the finish has orange peel, and the interior rattles like a tin can filled with a bucks worth of pennies, but it drives fine a will get you from point A to point B. Would you still buy the car? If you're a Chevy guy please refrain from answer the question.:msp_biggrin:

What you see on the surface is a good indicator of what's on the inside, and the quality of materials used. I've seen all I need to know about these kits, from porosity in the castings, to contamination in the materiel itself.

The kits are a CHEAP option nothing more.

How much does the "lesser" build quality car cost???
How does it compare to a new Ford XXXX?

The OEM top end kits for MOST average saws are around $200.00.
The aftermarket kits that I've been buying are around $95.00.

If the "lesser fit and finish but equal in operation" car is ~ 45% the cost of the new "super fit and finish" cars, the answer is probably going to be yes, I would buy the cheaper model.

But of course, I drive Dodges so obviously the looks of a vehicle are a "way down the list" second to it being strong and reliable, with low repair costs!!!:msp_biggrin:


Mike

 

[watsonr]

A deal's a deal. I'll make it happen. I don't have any stock 460 cylinders here, but my Dad does have a bone stock 046, other than a modded muffler. I'll use the same muffler on both.

Again, the difference here lies in our perspectives. From your perspective, if it runs and makes decent power, it's all good. That would be the case for 99.9% of the users out there. From that perspective, why make them any better. They're good enough as is. From my perspective, it's a whole different ball game. I'm admittedly a 1%er

It may take a little time to make it happen, but I will do the stock comparison. That's only fair to your perspective.

And exactly the point of this.

You said "in your opinion" that no aftermarket part is good enough without modification, you said that no OEM part is good enough without modification..... a saws builders perspective.

I'm saying that there are alternatives to OEM parts and prices..... a sellers perspective.

Aftermarket quality has come a long way since someone has done a review and that it was time for another review with an open mind. Competition breeds improvement, change, better products and potentially a lower priced item. It also keeps OEM from becoming lazy! That's all I'm offering... another choice.

I would have never came on here and said "Not to buy a product because I don't endorse it" such as you did. I would have never felt like it was my responsibility to take anything away from you for the better good of others. Whether you finish the test or not is up to you....

Randy

 

[PogoInTheWoods]

Any work that I don't want, which is all of it right now, gets referred to Randy.

Read and weep, TreeMonkey.

 

[Andyshine77]

How much does the "lesser" build quality car cost???
How does it compare to a new Ford XXXX?

The OEM top end kits for MOST average saws are around $200.00.
The aftermarket kits that I've been buying are around $95.00.

If the "lesser fit and finish but equal in operation" car is ~ 45% the cost of the new "super fit and finish" cars, the answer is probably going to be yes, I would buy the cheaper model.

But of course, I drive Dodges so obviously the looks of a vehicle are a "way down the list" second to it being strong and reliable, with low repair costs!!!:msp_biggrin:


Mike

That's the issue, when you see low quality you normally get low quality and unreliability along with it. If you have to replace the cheap part regularly, how cheap really is the part?

 

[blsnelling]

I would have never came on here and said "Not to buy a product because I don't endorse it" such as you did. I would have never felt like it was my responsibility to take anything away from you for the better good of others. Whether you finish the test or not is up to you....

Randy

Yes, I could have, and should have, said it a lot better. I got a little carried away. However, I still stand by my opinion that the quality can be, and should be, much better. There's no reason they couldn't be producing factory made performance cylinders. A tweak in width here, and a tweak in port timing here, and you have yourself a factory ported cylinder. Of course, that's just a builders dream. You get the idea though.

Three things would make this kit way better.
1. First of all, get that squish band with the correct taper on it. I can and have done squish band mods, but I don't want to have to. A popup is still a viable option in many cases.
2. Fix the exhaust port shape.
3. Improve the port beveling.

 

[watsonr]

Yes, I could have, and should have, said it a lot better. I got a little carried away. However, I still stand by my opinion that the quality can be, and should be, much better. There's no reason they couldn't be producing factory made performance cylinders. A tweak in width here, and a tweak in port timing here, and you have yourself a factory ported cylinder. Of course, that's just a builders dream. You get the idea though.

Three things would make this kit way better.
1. First of all, get that squish band with the correct taper on it. I can and have done squish band mods, but I don't want to have to. A popup is still a viable option in many cases.
2. Fix the exhaust port shape.
3. Improve the port beveling.

You have my word, I'll tell them to tighten up!

 

[Wild Knight]

That's the issue, when you see low quality you normally get low quality and unreliability along with it. If you have to replace the cheap part regularly, how cheap really is the part?

Granted, I missed a few pages, but has it been established that reliability is a problem? Another post in another thread said that after 100+ AM jugs sold, there has not been a single complaint. Is a point yet to be estaished being debated? Brad said he would finish the build and comparison. Let the proof be in the pudding.

 

[Wild Knight]

C'mon Nik. You know he's right...

He is a machinist and likes working with tools and fixing stuff. Of course he is a Chevy guy :taped:

 

[Andyshine77]

Granted, I missed a few pages, but has it been established that reliability is a problem? Another post in another thread said that after 100+ AM jugs sold, there has not been a single complaint. Is a point yet to be estaished being debated? Brad said he would finish the build and comparison. Let the proof be in the pudding.

Early on the kits liked to come apart. I've also see design problems that I believe will lead to issues down the road. What others say and what one's experienced, is all that matters to me. What I've seen and experienced with these kits has been both good and not so good. I'd never rely on any of the aftermarket top ends, but that's just me.

Lets look at this in a different way. Take an oem bearing and a aftermarket bearing. Under normal working conditions both bearings may do the same job and both may last a good long while. Now lets take things and change the setting. Say both bearings are overheated a bit, nothing crazy just a little extra heat. Now we start to see the metal in the aftermarket bearing expand abnormally, do to the fact the metal in the bearing is inferior compared to the OEM bearing. Which one has a better chance of failing?

 

[albert]

I can't agree with this at all. Say you go to buy a new car. The finders are misaligned, the finish has orange peel, and the interior rattles like a tin can filled with a bucks worth of pennies, but it drives fine a will get you from point A to point B. Would you still buy the car? If you're a Chevy guy please refrain from answering the question.:msp_biggrin:

What you see on the surface is a good indicator of what's on the inside, and the quality of materials used. I've seen all I need to know about these kits, from porosity in the castings, to contamination in the materiel itself.

The kits are a CHEAP option nothing more.

Are you for real?? What does that have to do with a cylinder. The kit should have been run, period. I saw the difference right away in the new kit pics and said so. You gave me the "are you for real". If the car your talking about was half price, sure I'd buy it and be happy. Lot's of kits out there, and no post's about failures or poor performance. Hell it may or may not out run a oe kit, who knows, it wasn't given a chance. If the bore and plating are good and the ports are cast in the right area, any porter thats worth his salt should have no problem making good power out of one

 

[Wild Knight]

Early on the kits liked to come apart. I've also see design problems that I believe will lead to issues down the road. What others say and what one's experienced, is all that matters to me. What I've seen and experienced with these kits has been both good and not so good. I'd never rely on any of the aftermarket top ends, but that's just me.

Lets look at this in a different way. Take an oem bearing and a aftermarket bearing. Under normal working conditions both bearings may do the same job and both may last a good long while. Now lets take things and change the setting. Say both bearings are overheated a bit, nothing crazy just a little extra heat. Now we start to see the metal in the aftermarket bearing expand abnormally, do to the fact the metal in the bearing is inferior compared to the OEM bearing. Which one has a better chance of failing?

I don't think machining marks and alloys of the metal of the components is comparing apples to apples. This thread was started based on photographs of beveling and port shape, right? Brad may be 100% correct; he has a lot of experience building saws. I'm just saying lets see a little more substance before we continue the debate.

 

[Trx250r180]

What kind of oil works best in these kits ?

 

[Mastermind]

What kind of oil works best in these kits ?

Duh.......aftermarket Gary Goo.